Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standards

dieseldorf

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standards

 

tjl

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standards

It for me is not about being able to run cheap oil but about availability. Is the dealer open till midnight no, are dealers located in every medium size city here no. VW has to make many changes to there cars for sale in the USA if they cannot make the car for the oil we use here or get the correct oil on the shelves of a none dealer outlets than it should not be here.
Since you say that you are in southern California, you have your wish. No new PD-TDI engine cars are available in California.
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standards

That does not wash either if someone can buy a used pd and bring it to Ca. Why can't you guys admit what VW is doing is crazy? It's not about what I want but about what VW should be doing.
 

SUNRG

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standards

i believe what we have here fellas is a thinly veiled case of "PD Envy"
 

Rustynuts

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standards

I don't care what other country's do I don't live there.
As I said, the world continues after the border of your county! If you have issues with buying the correct oil for a car you don't possess, I am lost for words. Or are you just stirring things up for the sake of it?
 

MrMopar

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

That does not wash either if someone can buy a used pd and bring it to Ca.
Well, with buying a car that will be relocated to another state the purchaser has the responsiblity of buying a car that will have local service outlets for when repairs are needed. That's been the case in years past when foreign cars could be imported to the United States, with or without a national franchise of dealerships.

If you're one of a few people in CA with a PD TDI, and California dealers choose not to pay for their techs to learn service techniques for cars that will not be sold within the state, you're on your own to find an independant technician.
 

jddaigle

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

It seems that what Dan wants is an OHV diesel engine with timing gears that can run on any oil. Turbocharging is probably out as well since it adds complexity and more parts to potentially brake.

I agree that such an engine would probably have incredible longevity and cheap & easy maintenance. What it wouldn't have, however, is the power & refinement of a modern TDI, and its emissions would be atrocious.

I bought my TDI for economy, longevity, and performance, like it says at the top of the page. To get all three you need high-quality parts, fuel, and lubricants. I know that 505.01 isn't as easy to get in North America as it should be, so I always carry a spare liter with me in the car. It's not that hard, really. The benefits of the modern TDI are more than worth it.
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

I never said I would want it to run on any oil just that the correct oil is available at non dealer outlets. I use amsoil synt in my car. A push rod gear drive would give up nothing to the current motor in power or emissions and there would be plenty of room for push rods with a non cross flow head. The cam would be able to operate PD type injection but you would have too run lines to the injectors. A gear drive could be designed that could handle the stress of PD and last the life of the motor. Everything else about the motor would be the same as a PD turbo, inter cooler, fuel system VW got all that stuff right. The only drawback of a motor like this is if you tried to make it a gasser It would be down on power because the heavy valve train would limit it's high RPM performance. In other words design for the application. VW compromised and made one motor do both diesel and gas. Dan
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Just for the record a friend of mine has an old ford ranger diesel pickup the original motor died so he bought a nissan diesel motor from japan it uses pushrods. Remember my words when japan starts exporting diesels to the USA (if they ever do)I bet you they will be push rod. Dan
 

dieseldorf

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Remember my words when japan starts exporting diesels to the USA (if they ever do)I bet you they will be push rod. Dan

Best Diesel Ever? Honda i-CDTI rips up the rulebook




Honda has stuck to its principles here, deciding that it would only attempt to enter the diesel market with an engine that was brilliant, groundbreaking and ahead of its time.




So, the fact that Kenichi Nagahiro, the almost mythically talented engineer who developed the VTEC, is behind the first-ever Honda diesel is very good news indeed. Ken freely admits he didn’t want to make a diesel engine. But with the growing popularity of oil-burners, Honda was in danger of losing market share if it didn’t come up with something new and exciting to offer the diesel market. So, instead of fighting it, Ken decided to build what Honda believes is the best diesel engine the world of derv has ever seen.


The all aluminum diesel engine is packed with cleverness. Nobody had previously figured out how to cast an alloy cylinder head strong enough to withstand a diesel unit, but Honda has developed a new construction technique called thixotropic, which does the job, and makes the lump lighter than any previous oil-burner. There are enough built in anti-friction, anti-vibration tricks that make the lump genuinely indistinguishable from a petrol unit….




Specs:
Honda Accord 2.2 i-CDTI
<ul type="square"> [*]Price: ~GBP20,000
[*]Engine: 2204cc, 4 cylinder, 2nd generation common rail diesel
[*]Max Power: 140bhp@ 4000rpm
[*]Max Torque: 251ft lbs @ 2000rpm
[*]Combined Consumption: 52.3 MGP (Imperial)
[*]CO2 Emission: 143g/km [*]0-62mph: 9.4 seconds
[*]Max speed:130mph [/list]



Various techniques were employed to achieve the required noise level, including intelligent combustion control, a highly rigid lower block, an acoustic engine cover, an offset cylinder and a dual mass flywheel.



One of Honda’s favorite claims is that this is the only car in its class that has reached Euro 4 emissions targets without the help of a particulate filter.



Power delivery is incredibly smooth, there’s no lag at all and at no point do you feel the turbo kicking in…even at hi speeds, you can barely hear it working away. Not at any point, unless you were to open the window while in traffic, can you tell it’s a diesel. In fact, put an unsuspecting person in this Accord and there’s a good chance they wouldn’t even realize it was an oil-burner.

The only complaint would be the gearing seems incredibly high so that you would almost never need 5th gear. Driving along at 80mph, fourth gear is happy to do the work. Try putting it in 5th , however, and the engine will grumble a little. As it’s unlikely you will ever need to drive any faster than 80 mph, except for the Autobahn, top gear does seem a bit redundant.




Veridct:



This is the launch of Honda’s first diesel engine, and what an entrance it has made. Plaudits for the almost uniquely engineered aluminum engine are widespread with good reason. The engine is quiet, refined, smooth and just generally miles ahead of any other diesel engine out there.



In the Accord, the i-CDTI has found its perfect partner. The refined nature of the engine is only matched by the car itself, with its great looks, stylish interior and impressive handling.



The saloon version isn’t due out until February of next year with the Tourer following on a month later, but it’s certainly going to be worth the wait. This Accord is going to take the diesel world by storm.



[/QUOTE]

-- Diesel Car Dec 2003




Dan, let’s face it, you’re quite new here and the “theories” you’re offering fly in the face of reality. They contradict all rationale out there. It’s almost as is you’re stuck in some sort of time warp when it comes to wrestling with what’s happening in the world of modern diesel engine developement.

Dan, no one is importing pushrod diesels for passenger car transportation. What’s up with that? Tell us what’s wrong.
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

If this honda uses vtec or is multivalve it would have to be OHC which I would call an absolutely brilliant design. Vtec could help the top end power of a diesel which could use some help. The Japanese will squash VW if they decide to go diesel. Vtec or multivalve is a very good reason to put the cams in the head. I know I drive a DOHC vtec motor every day. Dorf I think for myself and I suppose sometimes people don't know how to deal with that. Being new here has nothing to do with it I would be that way two years from now. Dan
 

dieseldorf

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Dan, I don't know what to say. Let's get back on topic and discuss this exciting new oil technology VW-AG is about to share with us!
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Well all I can say about the oil thing is this. New highly specific oils designed to not damage new after treatment systems makes a lot of sense to me. Other than that use a high quality synth and forget about it. I have decided to go with amsoil 10w40 amo for my car. I hope you think I am an interesting addition to this forum. Dan
 

SUNRG

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Dan, I commend your individuality! Good luck with your TDI and let's have a beer at TDIfest! Cheers!, Rob

back on topic - i hope the VW OEM particulate traps can be retrofit to our PDs. if they're not insanely priced i would gladly install them and use 507.00 oil in our TDIs!
 

jddaigle

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Just FYI, VW also has DOHC Diesel engines, but like Honda's, they're not available in the US right now because of our high-sulfur fuel. Once ULSD is available all over North America in summer 2006 I predict we'll see multi-valve Diesel engines with variable valve timing from almost all of the European and Japanese automakers, since they already sell such beasts where ULSD is available now.
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

The honda vtec system will be the one to use. With a diesel you can only advance or retard the cams a very small amounts because of the piston to valve clearence problem. Dan
 

DPM

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

"Remember my words when japan starts exporting diesels to the USA (if they ever do)I bet you they will be push rod"

So which of the Japanese manufacturers currently have an OHV high-speed diesel in a passenger car? None that I know of. They're unlikely to regress in engine design twenty years in order to flood an anti-diesel marketplace...
 

MrMopar

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

The honda vtec system will be the one to use. With a diesel you can only advance or retard the cams a very small amounts because of the piston to valve clearence problem. Dan
And with a variable cam, we can say goodbye to EGR clogging the intake.
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

DPM as I have stated before multivalve or vtec is a good idea for a diesel and would require OHC's (although I have seen multivalve done aftermarket with pushrods) but as for the VW TDI, the engine could be built with everything the same in a ohc or a ohv same head port layout valve layout just moving the cam down in the block using a simple two gear drive and push rods and rockers. Ask your self this question what problems would each design solve or create. Dan
 

DPM

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Dan, the TDI (and indeed the PD versions) are all evolutions of the early gasser VWs. The blocks are common (give or take, although I seem to recall reading about 1.8T tuners using TDI blocks...) Why would VW want to re-invent the wheel, and move the cam away from it's current location?

BTW, I'm not supporting VW in any way, I don't have one, never have...
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

One very very very good reason no more belts to replace or have snap on you and the absulute mess it makes when it snaps. I saw one vw diesel were the cam was broken in four places from a belt failure. Think of it this way ever time you hand somebody $750 for a TB job or spend your saturday replacing your TB it did not have to be that way. Dan
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Well start a new thread about timing belts if you want, I have some interesting thoughts about a vtec diesel but I don't have the time to go there now. Dan
 

Rustynuts

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

DPM as I have stated before multivalve or vtec is a good idea for a diesel and would require OHC's (although I have seen multivalve done aftermarket with pushrods) but as for the VW TDI, the engine could be built with everything the same in a ohc or a ohv same head port layout valve layout just moving the cam down in the block using a simple two gear drive and push rods and rockers. Ask your self this question what problems would each design solve or create. Dan
" the engine could be built with everything the same in a ohc or a ohv same head port layout valve layout just moving the cam down in the block using a simple two gear drive and push rods and rockers."

All this just because you find it unreasonable to order oil by internet/mail order or (God forbid) visit a dealer and buy some from there? It rest's quite plainly on the retarded infrastructure of the US supply chain, that no motor store on the corner of your block chooses to stock a VW spec oil. Would you suggest perhaps that VW start visiting these stores and selling their specification oil directly to them, just because the US oil companies have no intention to do so? Or perhaps your suggestions of re-manufacturing the entire VW engine range (in fact, every overhead camshaft engine in production) are just a little bit misguided. They have already re-manufactured the 2.0ltr engine cylinder head to accomodate your (U.S.) emmissions requirements, poor fuel quality, and who knows what else.

I wish you could have the level of technical engineering we have access to in Europe without having to be sufocated with the problems I've just outlined, but until that happens, you could always find some other outdated technology based engine to power your specific requirements in a car. Or embrace the fact that VW try to give you the benefit of their work in the field of diesel combustion engines!
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

I have a lot of respect for what VW has done for diesels I own one but some things could use improvement. AS far as ohc engines they are a vast improvement over pushrods in gas engines or a diesel with vtec or multivalve. Just because something is old or not high tech does not mean it's bad. In some applacations it might be perfect for the job. You have to think out side of the box. Dan
 

earthworm

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standards

Ha tell that to everyone who has had a timing belt snap before the service interval. If VW really wanted to give us the best possible they would get rid of the timing belt. I don't care what other country's do I don't live there. Cars sold in the USA should have readily available the correct fuel and oil period. Look at those fine cloths the emperor is wearing. Dan
* * * * * the above copied * * * * * *

Key words : acceptance and cooperation.

America, sadly to say is a backwoods country - and maybe it always has been. It does not have to stay that way - our education system can and must be improved !
We need strong national leadership - not greedy political hacks...
The problems must be accepted - they can be solved ..

Cooperation - this must occur between customer, dealer, and government - we are receiving far too little of this.
A properly designed automobile will have a timing belt that can be renewed every - say 50K to 75K miles and no more than 1.0 hour labor - the motor vehicle must be designed to last over 250K miles, many are,of course..But they also must be engineered to be worked on - and this is a major failing point..
And, if it is true that the new oils are not available, then why not ???
American politicians are not the only ones with their thumb up their asses !!
In a way, I cannot understand this oil-spec fuss - tonight and tomorrow I will go to PepBoys and Autozone and ask pointed questions ...Mercedes and VW surely must use the same oil - I would think....
 

nortones2

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Dan, IIRC OHC engines have fewer components than pushrod engines, which is why they have been adopted on common or garden passenger car engines. Its unlikely that an engine manufacturer would be fool enough to build a more expensive engine for diesel use, with less commonality. Re the multi-valve philosophy you approve of, I suspect its just aping the latest trends without understanding that the reasons for them are to do with the induction system limitations of naturally aspirated, high revving petrol engines. In the latest VW turbo diesels the 4-valve head is primarily to permit optimal injector positioning. With forced induction, and the oxygen rich combustion process of an unthrottled diesel, there is no need for variable valve timing to improve flow rates. Given an excess of oxygen, which is assured in the diesel engine, power requirements are modulated through the fuel injection system. If, for example, you were to fit a higher lift camshaft, there would be no power increase, because there is no benefit to be gained through better flow. There is more than enough oxygen available already as the engine runs "weak".
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

Push rod motors are not more costly. Eight push rods and lifters. No need for a belt or all the parts to encase it, tension it or idlers. Some ohc heads have cam brg caps some don't the ohv cam would slide into bores like a chevy low cost. Most ohc use rockers. Over all it would be a wash. Yes I understand the advantages of a four valve head volumetric efficiency. If getting more air into the motor is not necessary than why did VW put a turbo on it. Dan
 

Dan_Ruddock

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Re: Breaking News: New VAG 504.00 & 507.00 standa

I will give a real good reason the car company's might go ohc for their diesels !!! MARKETING !!! do you want two or three or four blades on your razor, how many times over sampling does your CD player have we are all suckers for this nonsense. Common folks give me a good engineering reason why an ohv diesel is bad. It is old, low tech, you have to put the cam somewhere, more expensive, all of these don't cut it. Take your choice what would rather have in a low reving diesel, gear drive for the cam like a $100,000 racing engine or a rubber belt. What real problem does ohv create? Dan
 
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