Water Methanol injection on a TDI?

I did not. intake temp is going to vary based on ambient temp too. Its quite cold in Minnesota.

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I was just wondering if my intake air after the IC is too cool for the water to evaperate if it would do more good to inject it before the IC or would there be a problem of the water condensating in the IC?

50C is quite hot. I'd log mine(2056vk, S3 IC) but my grills are fully blocked off for the winter so I'm sure it gets hot quick.

I can't find that log anymore. I have several old 3rd gear logs with ambient temp around 75°F. They only show a peak temp of 36°C. Only exceeding 30°C above 4,000 rpms. I forget what the ambient temp was the time I saw 50C.

One other thing Relative Humidity make a difference on how much water meth helps. Humidity is often high here so may be part of the reason I don't see much gains.

This is relevant though:
https://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=202520

UFO (under fueled oiler) said:

I was just wondering if my intake air after the IC is too cool for the water to evaperate if it would do more good to inject it before the IC or would there be a problem of the water condensating in the IC?

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Two things,
the old engineering puzzle where you're trying to cool off your coffee as far as possible in 5 minutes with a single ice cube. Logic puzzle aside, your IC is more efficient with hot gas going in, also, the evaporation of the water will cool it further than ambient in ideal conditions.

and yes, intercoolers will build up condensation and hydrolock the engine, my motor had 2 bent rods from oil built up in the IC.

Here is an interesting calculator. It may help with finding the best setup.HP calculator

UFO (under fueled oiler) said:

Is there any way to measure the relative humidity post IC? As long as it stays less then 100% it shouldn't condensate.

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it doesn't matter post-ic, long as there aren't low spots to accumulate more than a cup or so

I have done lots of research and been running a water methanol kit for the last three years on 09 Jetta TDI with a Malone stage2 and 3. If anyone would like one on one help with trying to explain nozzle placement and effects that I have got from ml/min vs % of methanol(yes it does make a difference if you're running 50-50 you could inject more then if your running 75% water.) feel free to message me.

Fire&TDI said:

I have done lots of research and been running a water methanol kit for the last three years on 09 Jetta TDI with a Malone stage2 and 3. If anyone would like one on one help with trying to explain nozzle placement and effects that I have got from ml/min vs % of methanol(yes it does make a difference if you're running 50-50 you could inject more then if your running 75% water.) feel free to message me.

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Awesome. Are you running two nozzles? What flow rates? What have you noticed for results from the water/meth injection?

Yes. A 375ml/min on boost activation 12psi 100% @20psi
175ml/min or 225ml/min on @ 22psi = 550-600ml/min kinda the sweet spot on my car.
Mostly I run the kit for EGT protection mode. Snow Preformance mpg-max kit

Working on kit with 2 Hobbs pressure switches for friends Stage 2 2.0 CR.
Using one to activate 100ml/min nozzle and pump at 12-15psi and 375ml/min at 20psi.
FYI 10psi is nothing for CR TDi to hit And it causing coughing/bucking issues at low speed with50/50 mix. Lowered mix to 25% or no methanol and issue went away.

Pic of nozzle placement on back or EGR delete pipe.

Keeps it looking clean from front.

I wonder, why with water methanol I get more black smoke from my car ? Maybe someone can explain that.
Car has VP engine with many modifications. Running 2.7bar boost. SOI 23.5.
I get good EGT drop 100-150C.

Jukums said:

I wonder, why with water methanol I get more black smoke from my car ? Maybe someone can explain that.
Car has VP engine with many modifications. Running 2.7bar boost. SOI 23.5.
I get good EGT drop 100-150C.

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very simple to answere: TLDR version your putting too much in


Diesel burns under compression and heat. Fun fact here that helps you understand whats going on. NOS is ideal for diesel engines as you cant use too much. the way you dial it in is keep adding more until you get less power and then back off a size. The NOS going from a liquid to a gas supper cools things like compressed CO2 does, same effect. if your engine combustion is running too cold, less fuel burns creating more smoke. im sure your water system is actually robing power.

Plain and simple you are using way too much. the only reason to use water meth is for 2 reasons, more power and EGT control. You need to se up your system a bit better. get a EGT gauge and probe from AUBER, wire in the injection pump to the gauge relay and set it for on at 1,100F and off at 900F and drop your orifice size down by 2 sizes at least.

What is your current set up now, how is it controlled and did you DIY it or buy a kit?

My set up is complicated but dialed in well, i have 2 gauge relays controlling 3 orifices. 1st stage injection is pre turbo at 1,100, second stage is post turbo right into the intake manifold about 6" back and kicks in at 1,300 and 3rd stage is a 4 port right at the runners that gets triggered at 1,450F, all of them go off at 1,000F when lower than 15psi. i run 32psi and only run water. I also have secondary fuel delivery pump and a tune that dumps more than an insane amount of fuel in on a ported and worked head. lots of smoke but egt's are never above 1480. My turbo and engine is beggine for death to come soon. i can hear it crying out to the gods for forged internals and a new set of gears. poor thing.
Cost me about $200 to make this set up and took lots of fine tuning and i have to mess with the 2nd and 3rd oprifices constantly depending on what i change.

Jukums said:

I wonder, why with water methanol I get more black smoke from my car ? Maybe someone can explain that.
Car has VP engine with many modifications. Running 2.7bar boost. SOI 23.5.
I get good EGT drop 100-150C.

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methanol is fuel
try running straight water and see if the smoke clears up

[486] said:

methanol is fuel
try running straight water and see if the smoke clears up

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very true but how on earth would this solve the issue, its too much water, Methanol will help the fuel burn a bit more as it heats up the combustion prosses and helps "spread the fire" to more fuel.

I think it might also be an issue where the injection system is not the true cause of the black smoke.

I'd try dialing back the methanol content of the mix. Maybe try just water, and then a 25/75% methanol to water ratio. With too much methanol, the timing of the combustion event could be thrown off slightly. As 486 mentioned, it's also another fuel source competing(with diesel vapors) for oxygen to combust.

Actually i just thought of it, i think your right 486, if you have too much fuel robbing all the o2 than you would have lots of smoke, methanol is much more reactive than diesel fuel vapor and if your not putting enough boost into the engine than you would have this problem possibly. OP, up your boost a bit and see what happens.

Now that I'm thinking about it, Methanol has quite a lot of oxygen in the alcohol itself. I think there could be some chemical delay of ignition with high injection rates of methyl. It has 5 times the latent heat of vaporization as compared to diesel fuel (could be quenching combustion somewhat), and nearly four times the autoignition temp - 870°F vs. ~230°F . If you play around with the blend ratio of water to meth., you should be able to find a happy medium.

lack of complete combustion from low compression makes white smoke, same with cold combustion chambers
their complaint is black smoke, which is overfueling

Hello everyone! I need help.My car, VW Touareg 3.0 TDI BKS CR. The boost 2.3 bar. 105 mg of fuel. Turbine gtb2369vk. I installed an AEM water / methanol injection. And two 250cc injectors. Can you tell me if I can install two 500cc injectors and whether it will cause harm to the motor? Thank you!

Nikpage said:

Hello everyone! I need help.My car, VW Touareg 3.0 TDI BKS CR. The boost 2.3 bar. 105 mg of fuel. Turbine gtb2369vk. I installed an AEM water / methanol injection. And two 250cc injectors. Can you tell me if I can install two 500cc injectors and whether it will cause harm to the motor? Thank you!

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There is much more to it than that. You need logs of temps and a power curve, just simply injecting more wont help as much as I ejecting more at different times.

At 2.3 bar boost you already use too much wmi with the 2 x250cc nozzles. Its more than enough.
Adding more will choke the engine.

On 2.0 engine wmi injection doesnt work well in my experience. Maybe it just needs a smaller nozzle 80-100cc max

Mongler98 said:

There is much more to it than that. You need logs of temps and a power curve, just simply injecting more wont help as much as I ejecting more at different times.

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I didn’t understand what I needed (Power graph with dino? Logs EGT? I can send you my LOG file
P.S. I do not understand spoken English
thank

Macradiators.com said:

At 2.3 bar boost you already use too much wmi with the 2 x250cc nozzles. Its more than enough.
Adding more will choke the engine.

On 2.0 engine wmi injection doesnt work well in my experience. Maybe it just needs a smaller nozzle 80-100cc max

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So the injection amount of 500cc is quite enough for 3.0tdi and 2.3 excess boost?
How to get more power from the system? I use a mixture of methyl water 50:50.
Dynamics with the injection of water methanol improved. But for some reason, the EGT began to increase faster.
Thank!

EGT increases because you add more fuel (methanol). I used 2 x 640cc/min with 50/50 mix in 1.9 TDI. With only water EGT - but also power - was lower.

Markus L said:

EGT increases because you add more fuel (methanol). I used 2 x 640cc/min with 50/50 mix in 1.9 TDI. With only water EGT - but also power - was lower.

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Thanks. I'll try using a mixture of 40 methyl to 60 water. But the main my question, will be able whether I instead two 250cc injectors put 500cc? would it be harmful?

Dang, blast from the past haha.

Could always just hop straight to nitrous, water meth is great for gassers and helps with timing, on the diesels it's usually not worth the trouble vs a better turbo. On the 335Ds running around 400bhp @ 35 psi we see around a 25-30hp increase


0.9 + 1mm nozzle with a 40w/60m mix


(from https://whitbreadperformance.com/products/aquamist-hfs4-v3-1)

More serious direct port setup
https://www.facebook.com/SutphinTuning/posts/346473639631672

Nikpage said:

Thanks. I'll try using a mixture of 40 methyl to 60 water. But the main my question, will be able whether I instead two 250cc injectors put 500cc? would it be harmful?

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No, it won't be harmful.

Owain@malonetuning said:

Dang, blast from the past haha.

Could always just hop straight to nitrous, water meth is great for gassers and helps with timing, on the diesels it's usually not worth the trouble vs a better turbo. On the 335Ds running around 400bhp @ 35 psi we see around a 25-30hp increase

0.9 + 1mm nozzle with a 40w/60m mix

(from https://whitbreadperformance.com/products/aquamist-hfs4-v3-1)

More serious direct port setup
https://www.facebook.com/SutphinTuning/posts/346473639631672

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OK. Thanks! Have you ever faced the problem of starting with smoke when starting the engine, because of the methyl that was draining into the cylinders?

Markus L said:

No, it won't be harmful.

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Thank you! I will conduct experiments today!)