Don’t mess with your emissions

Votblindub

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Slap an "off-road use only" sticker and let it roll. That's what the rest of industry does.
 

DivineChaos

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"plaintiffs actually purchased a truck from Sparks Motors and promptly sent it to Denver for testing" it was someone looking to screw them. you can easily have a tuned diesel that emits little to no smoke. i will be deleting in the future. but i will be tuned so i dont smoke. although i may have a smoke tune for the heck of it. When you see black smoke your just wasting fuel.
 

SilverGhost

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Slap an "off-road use only" sticker and let it roll. That's what the rest of industry does.
There was a thread about another company getting swacked by the EPA for trying exactly that a couple years ago. They tried to argue that all they sold was off road only and competition mods, and it was on the customers for driving them on the street. Judge wasn't buying that argument.

I remember a few year back Gale Banks warning guys like this to knock it off, or EPA would start dropping the hammer. Guess he was right.

Jason
 

turbobrick240

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I'm surprised it took so long to catch up to them. They televised themselves doing illegal mods for crying out loud. Putting out vids like this was also pretty moronic:

https://youtu.be/1e0OEvhCI7Y
 
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oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
The few times I have watched that show it seemed like they were mostly messing with much older trucks.

Which, by the way, leads me to want to ask: anyone noticed the SKYROCKETING prices of these older pre-crazy-emissions diesel pickups? Seriously, a 2000-05 era Ram in excellent condition with less than 200k miles on it will sell for its new MSRP around here. And quickly. There is a new dealership in Eureka MO I drive past every day that JUST sells diesels, and their lot is constantly refreshing. 95% of them are domestic pickups, mostly Dodge/Ram and Ford with the occasional GM truck and once in a while a Volkswagen that I can only assume is a diesel.

I foresee any of these old beasts being drug out of wherever and being refurbished by a cottage industry that is going to be quite profitable. And I have to admit, before I'd pay $60k for a truck with a pedal deficiency that has a giant computer screen on the dash and gets poor(er) fuel economy and is laden with fragile emissions components I'd pay $40k for a professionally reconditioned 20 year old truck. I really would. But I would not want it to be a smokey brodozer.... a mostly stock, clean, straight pickup with the factory wheels and ride height is fine with me.
 

Lightflyer1

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The cost of new ones is driving the price for the older ones. I still see nice 2000 to 2003 7.3l Ford diesels going for more than $10k, even more if everything has been reconditioned.
 

GoFaster

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Slap an "off-road use only" sticker and let it roll. That's what the rest of industry does.
That hasn't been a valid defense for a number of years. If they can show that you knew, or ought to have known, that vehicles were driven on the road with that equipment despite those words, they will see right through it.

Work on a vehicle that has a license plate on it? Vehicle gets driven in or driven out (as opposed to being towed in and towed out with no license plate on it)? Then you knew, or ought to have known, that the vehicle was being driven on the road.
 

Votblindub

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There was a thread about another company getting swacked by the EPA for trying exactly that a couple years ago. They tried to argue that all they sold was off road only and competition mods, and it was on the customers for driving them on the street. Judge wasn't buying that argument.
I remember a few year back Gale Banks warning guys like this to knock it off, or EPA would start dropping the hammer. Guess he was right.
Jason
That doesn't work.
That hasn't been a valid defense for a number of years. If they can show that you knew, or ought to have known, that vehicles were driven on the road with that equipment despite those words, they will see right through it.
Work on a vehicle that has a license plate on it? Vehicle gets driven in or driven out (as opposed to being towed in and towed out with no license plate on it)? Then you knew, or ought to have known, that the vehicle was being driven on the road.
So, I decide to have a crazy drag car built or something that you don't typically see on the streets. I have that done and i trailer it all over, push it into my garage/storage and do things right it's ok. Then, I decide to be dumb and just go for a ride on a public highway, then company that built it for me is responsible? I was figuring that people who build this kind of thing would have the customer sign off on paperwork that sort of indemnifies them, no?
 

Lightflyer1

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They usually do have people check off or sign off that it is for that purpose. But when you sell huge quantities of them you know there aren't millions (so to speak) of drag racers out there. They have done their homework or they wouldn't be getting the drop on businesses like they are. The real racing crowd is few compared to the masses and they wouldn't be selling near the number they are if they were legitimate. They should require someone provide some kind of racing license or other proof that that is what they are doing with the product if they actually wanted to cover themselves. Clicking a box or just making a statement isn't going to cut it any more.
 

turbobrick240

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So, I decide to have a crazy drag car built or something that you don't typically see on the streets. I have that done and i trailer it all over, push it into my garage/storage and do things right it's ok. Then, I decide to be dumb and just go for a ride on a public highway, then company that built it for me is responsible? I was figuring that people who build this kind of thing would have the customer sign off on paperwork that sort of indemnifies them, no?
In that scenario most judges would just fine the vehicle owner. But that's a good example of why many shops aren't interested in rolling the dice these days.
 

turbovan+tdi

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The few times I have watched that show it seemed like they were mostly messing with much older trucks.

Which, by the way, leads me to want to ask: anyone noticed the SKYROCKETING prices of these older pre-crazy-emissions diesel pickups? Seriously, a 2000-05 era Ram in excellent condition with less than 200k miles on it will sell for its new MSRP around here. And quickly. There is a new dealership in Eureka MO I drive past every day that JUST sells diesels, and their lot is constantly refreshing. 95% of them are domestic pickups, mostly Dodge/Ram and Ford with the occasional GM truck and once in a while a Volkswagen that I can only assume is a diesel.

I foresee any of these old beasts being drug out of wherever and being refurbished by a cottage industry that is going to be quite profitable. And I have to admit, before I'd pay $60k for a truck with a pedal deficiency that has a giant computer screen on the dash and gets poor(er) fuel economy and is laden with fragile emissions components I'd pay $40k for a professionally reconditioned 20 year old truck. I really would. But I would not want it to be a smokey brodozer.... a mostly stock, clean, straight pickup with the factory wheels and ride height is fine with me.
Yep. LBZ's have gone thru the roof.

New truck prices are insane. My customer has ordered a 2021 Dmax dually, full load, close to 100K plus tax. That is f*Cking insane, for a truck. I don't get it. :confused:
I bought an 02 Dmax, 2500HD, I am into it for 10K, I've had it for 3 years, has 400K and it tows my toy hauler around Vancouver and surrounding area's and to Oregon once a year.
 

da.hs

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My 2004 Touareg cost its first owner $99k (I have a photo of its window sticker), around $129k today corrected for inflation. If someone has money and inclination to buy new, why not?
 

turbovan+tdi

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My 2004 Touareg cost its first owner $99k (I have a photo of its window sticker), around $129k today corrected for inflation. If someone has money and inclination to buy new, why not?
That is true, but most don't, finance it etc, make stupid monthly payments. New vehicles are way over priced and too complex.
 

GlowBugTDI

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here's my question as now epa is going after tuners. Whats the difference or why is a dirty diesel worse then a jet, or a cargo ship? how is that possible even when there's many thousands of tuned diesels? is a diesel really any worse than one of those lambo's that can catch themselves on fire because of unburnt gas they can spew from the exhaust when reving hard? or any worse then NASCAR (or similar) races would be for the environment? (and no i don't dislike nascar or anything) I also hate it when people go after the farmers diesels, because they unfortunately think food, and milk grows i the store and don't understand how hard farming is....
it just doesn't all make sense to me...
 

Lightflyer1

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Nothing is worse than the other really in the big scheme of things. Things pollute. But what else can you do for a jet or cargo ships? Not all that much really right now. But some gains can be had with cars and trucks. Blame the soot spewing a**hats for the problems here. Otherwise, for the most part, tuned people would be invisible. When you bring attention to yourself from doing really stupid illegal things, right in front of people, expect to get hammered.
 

prsa01

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Local vs global impact. Many of the car emissions restrictions are in place for areas crowded with cars and/or prone to inversions. In the less crowded areas the trade-off of lower mileage for lower NOx emissions is (mostly) counter productive. However, in a city where they form ozone and smog it becomes a local health issue.
 
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KERMA

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EPA and CARB presented a seminar at the SEMA show. They said the "delete tune and straight pipe" trucks, when considered together were THE single largest source of air polution in the country right now, bar none. Not even close, more than every other polution source COMBINED. As hard as that may be for you to believe, and as much as you may wish it to not be so, it is their position and belief, which is what matters. Eliminating this source of polution is their number one enforcement priority at present.

More detail in this thread
 

DivineChaos

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EPA and CARB presented a seminar at the SEMA show. They said the "delete tune and straight pipe" trucks, when considered together were THE single largest source of air polution in the country right now, bar none. Not even close, more than every other polution source COMBINED. As hard as that may be for you to believe, and as much as you may wish it to not be so, it is their position and belief, which is what matters. Eliminating this source of polution is their number one enforcement priority at present.

More detail in this thread
but the lowe emissions required kills trucks causing more to me made. More parts made. more fuel used to transport said items. More fuel burned to produce electricity. What ends up being worse?
 

GlowBugTDI

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EPA and CARB presented a seminar at the SEMA show. They said the "delete tune and straight pipe" trucks, when considered together were THE single largest source of air polution in the country right now, bar none. Not even close, more than every other polution source COMBINED. As hard as that may be for you to believe, and as much as you may wish it to not be so, it is their position and belief, which is what matters. Eliminating this source of polution is their number one enforcement priority at present.

More detail in this thread
I don't deny that diesels aren't great for the environment, i just find it interesting that they go after the avg american. What about scrubbers? or the coal mines in other country's? or trucking? (i think truckers are great, and it's still the best way to transport goods efficiently) I totally get trying to do our part to clean up after ourselves, but i think maybe they took it a lil to far. interesting thread thanks for making that. As turbobrick240 said further down on that one I kinda wonder if their going after the crazy HP, and high soot coal rollers...

I bet you the EPA would love to get their hands on whistling diesel!:D
I'm almost sure he's on there wanted list lol
 
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GlowBugTDI

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but the lowe emissions required kills trucks causing more to me made. More parts made. more fuel used to transport said items. More fuel burned to produce electricity. What ends up being worse?
Which makes electric look better, and sense it's cheaper to fuel (right now), and less parts then people will switch (makes sense), but is it impossible to run a country with even half of everyone runing EV right now. There just isn't a way to make that much electric. plus once all the "dirty petrol vehicles" are gone you think electric will stay as cheap as it is now? lol
 

Lightflyer1

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If you aren't one of the minority of those who have tuned their cars (coal rollers especially) or deleted emissions equipment, life goes on normally just like before. Get in and drive your gas/diesel/hybrid/electric car and enjoy life. Fuel is cheap right now so enjoy that for the time being. It will be quite some time before electric cars make up half of the vehicles out there. Currently they are way too expensive for the average person to even afford and not suited to many peoples driving requirements. But the day is coming at some point in the future.
 

GlowBugTDI

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If you aren't one of the minority of those who have tuned their cars (coal rollers especially) or deleted emissions equipment, life goes on normally just like before. Get in and drive your gas/diesel/hybrid/electric car and enjoy life. Fuel is cheap right now so enjoy that for the time being. It will be quite some time before electric cars make up half of the vehicles out there. Currently they are way too expensive for the average person to even afford and not suited to many peoples driving requirements. But the day is coming at some point in the future.
yup, i agree!

curious tho if the EPA is going after the tuners like i have read will that effect what tunes we are able to get?
 

Lightflyer1

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EPA will have a hard time getting to anyone outside the US. It's dealers though could be a target. But with OBDII tools the DIY method will still work. Political pressure on Canada and other countries that are friendly to the US may come into play too. As the EPA goes after more and more companies I think you will start to see things dry up. I think they are only going after the more egregious examples though and hoping others will fall into line. I don't know at what point a tune becomes illegal or non compliant though. Rolling coal or obvious smoking will certainly draw attention though. The better tunes don't do this though from my experience.
 

iamatt

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EPA and CARB presented a seminar at the SEMA show. They said the "delete tune and straight pipe" trucks, when considered together were THE single largest source of air polution in the country right now, bar none. Not even close, more than every other polution source COMBINED. As hard as that may be for you to believe, and as much as you may wish it to not be so, it is their position and belief, which is what matters. Eliminating this source of polution is their number one enforcement priority at present.
More detail in this thread
Sure they said that at a car show for car people but I'm in the oil and gas industry and calling 100% bull**** on their claim as targeting tuned vehicles as the largest pollution source. Just take a ride down the Houston Ship Channel towards the refineries.
 

DivineChaos

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Which makes electric look better, and sense it's cheaper to fuel (right now), and less parts then people will switch (makes sense), but is it impossible to run a country with even half of everyone runing EV right now. There just isn't a way to make that much electric. plus once all the "dirty petrol vehicles" are gone you think electric will stay as cheap as it is now? lol
oh dont get me started on how many resources are burned producing the batteries for the ev..
 

GlowBugTDI

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Hahaha!, lol i won't

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