The buyback or modificaion decision is finally here.

kVox42

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2015
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
2010 Golf
I own a 2010 Golf TDI since new; 6-speed manual; presently 88K miles. Excellent condition, well maintained. I like the car a lot and for specific reasons I won’t get into, my general preference is to keep it. I also want to do what makes sense.

Having just gotten a notification that an emissions modification is now approved, I finally have the decision to make: modification or buyback. From the info provided by VW, the stated impact of the fix effectively comes down to:
Some increased engine noise during moderate acceleration at midrange engine speeds. (VW claims this will not result in any noticeable change in driving characteristics.)
What they call “frequency and occurrence of special engine operating modes” that will be different from the previous software, (related mostly to the diesel particulate filter).
Loss of about 2 miles per gallon.
Minor changes in engine torque while transitioning between driving modes, (also, allegedly “unnoticeable” by an average driver.

VW goes on to point out that the modifications will have no significant impact in terms of the engine’s performance or longevity.

So my thoughts and questions are these:
- If these changes, (which sound rather minimal to someone like myself - who is not a mechanic) will have such a minimal impact, why weren’t they part of the original design in the first place? Are important mechanical details being left out of the explanation - for the benefit of us laymen?
- Related to item #1 above, if I go with the modification and it becomes clear that the actual/practical impact of the modification makes the vehicle much less appealing to drive, is there a way to return it to its original state, (or some variation that makes it an appealing vehicle again)?
- Assuming there is an answer to #2, how does one navigate the mechanical parameters (and ethics) of trying to be environmentally responsible but still not get “stuck” with a vehicle that’s going to require expensive repairs down the road. Like many of you, I paid a premium for a car that allegedly produced low emissions and still delivered good performance. I’m concerned about how much that equation can be messed with without having significant, long term consequences.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
In order:

- Darn good question. But keep in mind that even once modified, it still doesn't actually conform to the regulations that it was originally called upon to meet. Less stringent requirements were part of the negotiation. The emissions are better than before but not strictly fully compliant. And surely the tradeoffs (slightly poorer fuel consumption and slightly more noise) influenced the original calibration, of allowing the engine to emit higher NOx in order to get that lower noise and lower fuel consumption.

- You can't revert the modification, but you can certainly have a chat with Malone Tuning (among others) to simply chip-tune the vehicle without consideration of what the stock calibration is ... bearing in mind that such tampering invalidates the extended warranty that you would otherwise be provided with. Initial reports have mostly been that the results of the fix have been unobtrusive, and the exceptions probably have some other yet-undiagnosed underlying problem with the vehicle.

- If you're concerned about potential future repairs then don't invalidate the warranty. Let them fix it and then leave it alone. Don't give them an excuse to invalidate the warranty. If you're concerned about ethics of being environmentally responsible - same answer. Once the warranty expires then do what you want with it.

One thing we don't know is the long term implications of what this fix does. A large part of why it took so long to show up is that VW and EPA and CARB all wanted to make sure, to the best of their ability, that this fix would hold up. But there's no other substitute for time, than time itself. Usage in the real world will turn up conditions that weren't tested, and what will happen then, isn't known. The fact of the matter is that not only do you know that you do not know everything, but you also don't know what you don't know.
 

Cbasta

New member
Joined
Aug 23, 2017
Location
Minnesota
TDI
2014 Beetle
Test drive

I'm in the same place deciding--- although at this point, I'm inclined to keep my car the way it is and pass on the fix altogether.

I own a 2014 Beetle TDI that I love! While it was in the shop getting its 40k mile tune up, I decided to test drive a couple of the TDI's on the lot at the dealership that have already been modified to see if I noticed any difference.

I drove a 2015 Beetle and a 2015 Passat for comparison. Now, I'm not a mechanical genius or anything, so take that with a grain of salt, but --- I (a mere mortal with no mechanical aptitude) noticed a huge, disappointing difference.

Both of the cars I drove felt as if they had a big loss in power and general "zip." Acceleration was much less peppy than it is in my car. In general, just no dang fun.

Going to wait it out a bit, I think.
 

kVox42

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2015
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
2010 Golf
"In theory", my 2010 Golf was intended to be "the last car I'd have to purchase", so I'm inclined to keep it; it's been a great vehicle. I won't restate what is already posted on this forum about what VW says will be the impact of the fix (2mpg, some additional noise, etc.) I see conflicting reports here posted by those who've driven cars that have already been modified. Some people say it's barely noticeable; others say it's a substantial difference. Either way. I 'm also concerned about making a decision to go with the fix without having any long-term track record to go on. How will it perform over time? We simply don't know. Putting the ethical issue of environmental impact aside for the moment (which is not an unimportant issue for me) I'm wondering about two things: 1) If I get the modification done and it turns out to substantially reduce the car's appeal, can I get it put back to where it is, pre-fix? Basically, revert back to square one? 2) If I decide not to get the modification done and keep the car as-is (basically pass on VW's offer), is it a vehicle that can be legally registered over the years to come? (It's registered in NC). Does anyone know a definitive answer to those questions? I'm wondering if my state DMV (not to mention the Feds / DOT) will "sanction" my car or not?
 

Island bus guy

New member
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Location
Washington
TDI
2014 VW Beetle
Hey Cbasta
Just had our 2014 Beetle "fixed" with the approved modification last Thursday (9/7). Our dealer is 30 miles away, so got some freeway and rural driving in on the way home, plus did our regular errands in town on Saturday. Then, Sunday, took it an hour and a half north to visit our granddaughters, so more freeway. We see or hear NO difference with our loved little car. It still has all the get up and go it had before, sounds pretty much the same, and we got 45 mpg on the freeway - 36 around town. (Got as much as 46 before on the freeway, and sometimes 38 in town.) SO a touch off on the mileage, but nothing to jump up and down about, especially considering the nice check VW is sending us. And we get to keep our bug!
 

Diesl

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Location
Chicago
TDI
'78 Golf Diesel (long gone); 2012 Jetta Sportwagen TDI w/ DSG
Kvox, you have almost a year to decide. I'd give it some time, and see how things develop with the fixed gen 1 cars.
 

DK

Veteran Member
Joined
May 6, 2002
Location
Massachusetts
TDI
2014 TDI Golf 6 speed
My 2014 6 speed spent the day Friday having the fix. At the same time the airbag bladder was replaced per recall, and the snow flap was fixed per recall.
When I picked the car up, I had worries that I would regret the fix. Turns out the performance is unchanged, and it is a little noisier. Sounds more like my 2002 used to sound. I am happy I kept the car.
 

ritsco

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Location
Northeastern CT
TDI
2015 TDI GSW SEL and 2006 Golf TDI GLS
I heard a weird rumor, from several different sources, that stated if you pass on the fixes for the TDI cars in question you may be in for a surprise when you go to renew your registration. Rumor says VW will pass info on all VIN numbers to EPA/DMV that do not comply with emission fixes. If you don't fix it, you won't be driving it for try long. Anyway, that is the rumor I keep hearing. Knowing what the government can do, it doesn't seem that far fetched.

Again, just a tinfoil hat rumor.
 

Diesl

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Location
Chicago
TDI
'78 Golf Diesel (long gone); 2012 Jetta Sportwagen TDI w/ DSG
^^ 30 seconds of searching could have cleared this up. States that took VW money can't deny registration for unfixed cars.

Makes me wonder about your fuel economy statement as well...
 

ritsco

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Location
Northeastern CT
TDI
2015 TDI GSW SEL and 2006 Golf TDI GLS
^^ 30 seconds of searching could have cleared this up. States that took VW money can't deny registration for unfixed cars.

Makes me wonder about your fuel economy statement as well...
Don't know what the fuel statement for my 2006 has anything to do with it, but feel free to snipe as you wish.

And like I said, I have heard this "rumor" from several sources about denying registration for cars that are not fixed. If it is untrue in some states, so be it.

Thank you.
 

Mark_J

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Location
Deer Park, Washington
TDI
2015 TDI Passat SEL Premium, 2017 Fiat Spider, 2017 Ford F350 6.7 Diesel crew cab PU, 2016 Harley Trike, 2016 Tesla Model X P90D (I know went to the dark side)
I think there are only 3 or so states that did not take the settlement money, and from reading the settlement, these are the only states that can stop a non fixed TDI owner from registering their vehicle. Not sure which states these are, but I know my state took the money and I have a letter from our state saying they would not prevent any TDI from being registered. It's all spelled out in the settlement docs. So a rumor is just that, a rumor.
 

Diesl

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Location
Chicago
TDI
'78 Golf Diesel (long gone); 2012 Jetta Sportwagen TDI w/ DSG
It's not 'just a rumor', it's false.
 

Mike in Anchorage

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Location
Anchorage, AK
TDI
2016 Touareg Lux, 2015 Golf Sportwagen SE, new 4 Sept 2017;2009 VW Jetta TDI Sportwagen (Ruby) sold to VW on 22 SEP 2017
I was in the same place with a 2009 model. Few miles, a few mods I preferred to make it like I wanted it, etc. I asked what to do if I didn't like the new tune. No way to sell back after that. I chose to use buyback money and get a new 2015 model. Better technology, better performance, and better fuel usage than my old one. I have the DSG tranny on both and I note that the engine speed at, say 65mph is quite a bit lower. That alone has helped with highway mileage. If you're in a quandary, the new one with 0% interest VW loan will allow you about 3 years to decide if something newer comes along while you drive a brand new car. Good luck with the decision.
 
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Smokin_Joe

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Location
Surrey BC
TDI
2011 Golf TDI Highline returned for refund
I own a 2010 Golf TDI since new; 6-speed manual; presently 88K miles. Excellent condition, well maintained. I like the car a lot and for specific reasons I won’t get into, my general preference is to keep it. I also want to do what makes sense. .....

So my thoughts and questions are these:
-.....how does one navigate the mechanical parameters (and ethics) of trying to be environmentally responsible but still not get “stuck” with a vehicle that’s going to require expensive repairs down the road. Like many of you, I paid a premium for a car that allegedly produced low emissions and still delivered good performance. I’m concerned about how much that equation can be messed with without having significant, long term consequences.
While researching on whether you should or should not keep the car, have you discovered the ticking time bomb, running under the hood?
I mentioned this because you should take a close look at all the risks involved.
2micron on the forum has created a couple of fixes to protect you but be sure to take a close look at..
https://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+hpfp+failures&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
Our personal story can be read here ...
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=410742
(sorry photo's done in by photophucit)
Some of 2mcron's work
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=375803&highlight=2micron+kits
He also has a cp3 conversion kit for to fix the time bomb for good.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=444018

We too were thinking about keeping our little car but we decided to let it go..
Research will help you decide:cool:
Good luck kVox42
 
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Mike in Anchorage

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Location
Anchorage, AK
TDI
2016 Touareg Lux, 2015 Golf Sportwagen SE, new 4 Sept 2017;2009 VW Jetta TDI Sportwagen (Ruby) sold to VW on 22 SEP 2017
While researching on whether you should or should not keep the car, have you discovered the ticking time bomb, running under the hood?
I mentioned this because you should take a close look at all the risks involved.
2micron on the forum has created a couple of fixes to protect you but be sure to take a close look at..
https://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+hpfp+failures&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
Our personal story can be read here ...
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=410742
(sorry photo's done in by photophucit)
Some of 2mcron's work
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=375803&highlight=2micron+kits
He also has a cp3 conversion kit for to fix the time bomb for good.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=444018

We too were thinking about keeping our little car but we decided to let it go..
Research will help you decide:cool:
Good luck kVox42
Wondering if the dude is an insurance agent. Sheesh. Talk about a fear monger. The data clearly shows that the vast majority of the HPFP failures occur in the first 50 to 60 k miles of usage. Still no valid reason why that occurs, but if your car is running fine and you have not had HPFP problems, it is decreasingly likely to happen. Best wishes on your decision.
 

Smokin_Joe

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Location
Surrey BC
TDI
2011 Golf TDI Highline returned for refund
Wondering if the dude is an insurance agent. Sheesh. Talk about a fear monger. The data clearly shows that the vast majority of the HPFP failures occur in the first 50 to 60 k miles of usage. Still no valid reason why that occurs, but if your car is running fine and you have not had HPFP problems, it is decreasingly likely to happen. Best wishes on your decision.
Insurance agent....lol
That's Funny :D
So is data.
VW said misfueling causes the cp4 to fail yet 5 years of testing by the NHTSA found no proof that misfueling would cause a cp4 failure.
Volkswagen lied...
Wait till you are standing there being told that you missfueled your car...over and over and over....and being told that warranty won't cover it.
I wouldn't stand for it....a 20 minute conversation with the regional rep changed the whole picture real fast.

The one that kept saying we missfueled our car was warned by the manager not to talk to us. Last time I saw him, he wasn't talking to the customers much anymore...

They treat us much better now. Top notch service.

We took time with our decision and had done our research long ago.
We decided the buyback was a way out.

Mike if your advice is to gamble on a $10,000 repair bill, to someone who admits they are not a mechanic.

someone like myself - who is not a mechanic)
and make light of those that are giving proper and well advised warnings
Shame on you Mike

SMH*** Mike in Anchorage***SMH

kVox42 if you read Mike's post you will find a few things that should act as a warning...
Wondering if the dude is an insurance agent. Sheesh. Talk about a fear monger. The data clearly shows that the vast majority of the HPFP failures occur in the first 50 to 60 k miles of usage. Still no valid reason why that occurs, but if your car is running fine and you have not had HPFP problems, it is decreasingly likely to happen. Best wishes on your decision.
{Mike's info seems to contradict itself...:D..IMO}
Data can show lots of things if you manipulate it right.
I never found any data that justifies a $10,000 repair bill to fix a failed HPFP....
The VW company made lift pumps with the wrong steel, when the rods rust they plug the filter and starve the cp4...leading to failure.
{Dweisel has a kit to change the rods to stainless,which they should have been in the first place}
The stock filtration system is a bad design. 2micron's kit take a sudden cp4 failure and turn it into a long drawn out affair lasting weeks, not seconds..
Truth is, the cp4 is a bad design. The stock cp4 can self destruct, it tries to do the job of raising fuel pressure from approx 80 psi to over 25,000psi. My cp3 uses 3 pistons and can raise fuel from 0 to way over 27,000psi. The cp4 uses 1.
When the Fass, on my 03 Dodge, went out, I didn't even know it.
Ran perfect for days...:D
Thought the fuel pressure sender died......too funny...great pump
We almost installed one on our 2011 Tdi...then VW gave us a way out.
Thank you VW.
Good luck KVox42, try and make the right decision.
 
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Mike in Anchorage

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Location
Anchorage, AK
TDI
2016 Touareg Lux, 2015 Golf Sportwagen SE, new 4 Sept 2017;2009 VW Jetta TDI Sportwagen (Ruby) sold to VW on 22 SEP 2017
My first CR TDI was an 09, built in Oct 08. The warnings, hand wringing, etc, got to be so intense I stopped reading many of the threads. FWIW, unless you go to the dealer, a bill for repair of HPFP failure is now FAR less than $10k.

2µ is a great company and I admire what he's done with the information and how well his product works. Sure, go for it.
 

B-Spec

New member
Joined
Oct 8, 2017
Location
Vegas
TDI
13 Golf TDI, 15 Jetta SEL TDI
Had my 2013 Golf and my 2015 Jetta fixed and they are both running the same as they did before. Notice no changes at all. I drive 2 to 3 hundred miles a day sometimes and my mileage nor power has changed at all.. I noticed nothing with the noise levels either. Very glad I kept them because there is no car made that can replace the mileage and the comfort for anywhere near the price..
 

jcranch.530

New member
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
Location
PORUM OKLAHOMA
TDI
2009 Jetta tdi
tdi emissions fix

Hi I'm new here I have a 2009 TDI Jetta I had to fix the emissions fix done on my car approximately 5 weeks ago since then I've had the car a total of 11 days the rest of the time the rest of the time my car has been held up by the dealer for codes that have popped up due to the emissions fix problems anyone that is looking to have this done I'm suggesting you don't at this time due to EGR problems and intake problems exhaust problems and the list keeps climbing right now if anybody knows about how to deal with this that would be great the dealer and Volkswagen both are giving me problems with loaner cars and telling me that not everything is covered under the warranty that is stated in the warranty to be covered
 

Mike in Anchorage

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Location
Anchorage, AK
TDI
2016 Touareg Lux, 2015 Golf Sportwagen SE, new 4 Sept 2017;2009 VW Jetta TDI Sportwagen (Ruby) sold to VW on 22 SEP 2017
Hi I'm new here I have a 2009 TDI Jetta I had to fix the emissions fix done on my car approximately 5 weeks ago since then I've had the car a total of 11 days the rest of the time the rest of the time my car has been held up by the dealer for codes that have popped up due to the emissions fix problems anyone that is looking to have this done I'm suggesting you don't at this time due to EGR problems and intake problems exhaust problems and the list keeps climbing right now if anybody knows about how to deal with this that would be great the dealer and Volkswagen both are giving me problems with loaner cars and telling me that not everything is covered under the warranty that is stated in the warranty to be covered
Sorry to hear of the mess. The 09s are the oldest and require the most revisions to effect compliance. I hope they get it figured out soon so you can have your car to drive.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Hi I'm new here I have a 2009 TDI Jetta I had to fix the emissions fix done on my car approximately 5 weeks ago since then I've had the car a total of 11 days the rest of the time the rest of the time my car has been held up by the dealer for codes that have popped up due to the emissions fix problems anyone that is looking to have this done I'm suggesting you don't at this time due to EGR problems and intake problems exhaust problems and the list keeps climbing right now if anybody knows about how to deal with this that would be great the dealer and Volkswagen both are giving me problems with loaner cars and telling me that not everything is covered under the warranty that is stated in the warranty to be covered
There is an escape clause if you have the "fix" done to your car which is somewhat reminiscent of a lemon-law ... you can revert to a buyback if the car has problems that they are not reasonably able to repair. I suggest you investigate this. Read all the documents that you were provided with, and read the EPA/CARB/VW consent decree. It's in there.
 

lktango

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Location
Shedd, Oregon
TDI
'13 JSW
Fix is in, still runs...

My '13 JSW got the emissions fix back in August. It seems to run just as well as before the fix but the mileage 'seems' to be down, just not sure how much.

In the first 44k miles, it averaged 37.1 mpg but 12,500 miles of that were two trips to Fairbanks from Oregon. It averaged 42.0 mpg on the first trip and 40.6 on the second. The only change between the two trips were the tires; when the OEM tires wore out I fitted it with Pirelli P7 All Season plus tires. Most of the time, the JSW is my daily, to work and back driver.

I'm keeping it and planning another trip to Fairbanks (and maybe Inuvik NWT) next Spring.
 

herkybc130

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Location
Louisville
TDI
1981 VW Rabbit diesel
Had the fix and recall performed on my 2012 Golf TDI; air bag, O2 sensor and emissions. The service advisor said I might hear a humming sound that comes from the new EGR installed as part of the emissions fix. Well, the humming sound is definitely there. Wasn't before. Doesn't seem to be a constant frequency either but slight variations in pitch. Am I imagining things?

UPDATE

After driving a few more miles, and trying to merge onto the highway, the engine and glow plug light came on with reduced power and I'm guessing what is the limp mode. Made it home, called and left a message for the service advisor. Back to the shop tomorrow.
 
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2004LB7

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Location
California
TDI
2006 Jetta
^^ 30 seconds of searching could have cleared this up. States that took VW money can't deny registration for unfixed cars.
Knowing how many of our politicians work, It wouldn't surprise me to either pass a new law that undoes this or more likely, to make VW come up with a different emissions recall unrelated to this one. Some minor simple little thing that "needs" to be fixed but cant be done with the original emissions equipment. Therefore you have to get the "fix" but this will be after the deadline and no restitution payment.

Think about the EPA, CARB, and any other involved government agency and think about their motives, ethics and history. I wouldn't put it past them to come up with a reason to deny future registration. Laws are already in place in many states to do just this if they want
 

flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
Knowing how many of our politicians work, It wouldn't surprise me to either pass a new law that undoes this or more likely, to make VW come up with a different emissions recall unrelated to this one. Some minor simple little thing that "needs" to be fixed but cant be done with the original emissions equipment. Therefore you have to get the "fix" but this will be after the deadline and no restitution payment.
Think about the EPA, CARB, and any other involved government agency and think about their motives, ethics and history. I wouldn't put it past them to come up with a reason to deny future registration. Laws are already in place in many states to do just this if they want
The court ruling determines what happens, your bogeymen do not.
 

Smokin_Joe

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Location
Surrey BC
TDI
2011 Golf TDI Highline returned for refund
Had the fix and recall performed on my 2012 Golf TDI; air bag, O2 sensor and emissions. The service advisor said I might hear a humming sound that comes from the new EGR installed as part of the emissions fix. Well, the humming sound is definitely there. Wasn't before. Doesn't seem to be a constant frequency either but slight variations in pitch. Am I imagining things?

UPDATE

After driving a few more miles, and trying to merge onto the highway, the engine and glow plug light came on with reduced power and I'm guessing what is the limp mode. Made it home, called and left a message for the service advisor. Back to the shop tomorrow.
OhOh...I hope it isn't what I think it is...
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=299854&highlight=Official+list+Hpfp+failures
Good Luck
 
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