Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

Status
Not open for further replies.

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Same here- zero difference with the smart meter. Probably because they only have one rate for residential power.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
What a lot of people don't realize is with that Smart grid their power is measured 247 so the Bills are going to go up
I see examples every day of people who thought that the power Bill would be cheaper with a Smart meter.
Surprise!. Most people's power Bills are double OR triple with the Smart meters. Especially if they have the older type meters that only measure the power part of the day and average it. There was an example of the News local News last week of someone who asks for a Smart meter.
With their new Smart meter the Bill went from 55 to 80 dollars a month up to Close to 300 with the Smart meter. So think Long and hard before you ask to have your meter changed if you're not sure what kind of meter you have.
For those who do not know. Smart meters are the answer if you want expensive power but not for a whole lot else Today.
Having gone from a standard meter to a time-of-use smart meter, I can attest that our power bill went down despite our usage going up due to the addition of two electric vehicles.

With time-of-use metering, you have to pay attention to how much power you use and when. If you think you can just use power whenever you want and not end up paying more, then you haven't done your research on how time-of-use billing works.

If you're in a house with electric heat or electric cooking, time-of-use metering is probably not for you. Our house is gas heat and gas cooking, so we can shift most of our energy-intensive activities like car charging, laundry and central air conditioning to the off-peak hours. During the day, we run a small window unit to keep the house comfortable without incurring expensive demand charges.

All it takes is a bit of forethought about how you currently use electricity and how you intend to modify your electricity usage to maximize your savings with time-of-use metering. If you aren't interested in putting that sort of effort in to your daily life, perhaps you'd be better off sticking with a dumb meter.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
I don't have an article, but I did have a brother in law who worked for the power company who told me the time of day they took measurements not to use the power much if I didn't want to pay a big power Bill. Some of the older type meters readings could even be mucked with reduced by having a lot of capacitance load over resistance, because resistance was how they measured the power use.
The older type meters only averaged the power from the time that they are measuring it so they so yes they did not measure all it,
so if you used a lot of power when they were averaging it, your power Bill is higher. And there are Still a lot of these older meters in use out there. Also, many people do not realize that the mechanical workings in their older meter May be dragging and not measuring their Real power consumption. So surprise! When they get a new meter, especially a Smart meter, every bit of power they use is measured and charged for.
Either your brother-in-law doesn't know what he's talking about or you misunderstood what he told you. Traditional power meters measure all of the power that passes through them. Once per billing period, a meter reader writes down the total meter reading (in kWh), subtracts it from the previous meter reading (in kWh), and voila, you have your consumption for that billing period (in kWh).
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
So what happens if you get a cloudy week(which happens quite often here) and don't have enough solar power to charge your car? Again, this is the issue, solar is not consistent. Its a fundamental problem with solar. Wind is even worse.
You fire up a peaker plant (usually natural gas) and go on with your day.
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Either your brother-in-law doesn't know what he's talking about or you misunderstood what he told you. Traditional power meters measure all of the power that passes through them. Once per billing period, a meter reader writes down the total meter reading (in kWh), subtracts it from the previous meter reading (in kWh), and voila, you have your consumption for that billing period (in kWh).
Actually residential meters only measure real power P(watts), there is also reactive power Q(vars) that the meters do not measure. Businesses that use lots of reactive power are required to have two meters for this reason. You could theoretically use a lot of reactive power in your house and not get charged for it, but its not real power so its useless anyway.
You fire up a peaker plant (usually natural gas) and go on with your day.
Not sure if its that easy to throttle a power plant.
 

CraziFuzzy

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Location
Jurupa Valley
TDI
'09 JSW (GoneBack) - replaced with '15 Azera and '16 Fiat 500e.
Actually residential meters only measure real power P(watts), there is also reactive power Q(vars) that the meters do not measure. Businesses that use lots of reactive power are required to have two meters for this reason. You could theoretically use a lot of reactive power in your house and not get charged for it, but its not real power so its useless anyway.


Not sure if its that easy to throttle a power plant.
He DID say it recorded kWh, which IS real energy. No one 'uses' reactive power, thus why power meters cancel it out and record only real power.
 

CraziFuzzy

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Location
Jurupa Valley
TDI
'09 JSW (GoneBack) - replaced with '15 Azera and '16 Fiat 500e.
And if changing the meter changed your electric bill, than either you changed your usage, or you changed your plan. 'Smart-meters' read the same kWh that 'dumb' meters do.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
If you're in a house with electric heat or electric cooking, time-of-use metering is probably not for you.
I don't think that electric cooking power usage amounts to a very large percentage of a typical bill.
 
Last edited:

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
I don't think that electric cooking power usage amounts to a very large percentage of a typical bill.
In our house (mostly gas), it's the two refrigerators that pull the most current. I'll add to that the four TV sets that the wife has to have on all at the same time. Drives me nuts! Our electric stove is rarely used as I cook on the gas grill outdoors. Seems like that's the norm around here.

Well, the A/C load here is pretty high in the summer months (May - October) and that seems to double the bill when the 24 hour temperature ranges from 82 - 105 F for weeks on end.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
In our house (mostly gas), it's the two refrigerators that pull the most current. I'll add to that the four TV sets that the wife has to have on all at the same time. Drives me nuts! Our electric stove is rarely used as I cook on the gas grill outdoors. Seems like that's the norm around here.
Well, the A/C load here is pretty high in the summer months (May - October) and that seems to double the bill when the 24 hour temperature ranges from 82 - 105 F for weeks on end.
I think you have pretty typical usage. Heating/cooling, refrigeration, and electronics seem to use the most power on average. Cooking is probably 2-4% of consumption typically.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Ground sourced heat pumps, if you can use them (and with current setups most anyone with even a small yard can) are excellent at cooling a house. They are not cheap to install, but the electricity use is about that of a large refrigerator, plus they help to heat the water so your water heater needn't work as hard.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Yeah, ground sourced heat pumps are incredibly efficient for both cooling and heating. The key is convincing people that the initial installation cost is worthwhile. Most people see the price tag and are scared away. Regardless of how many thousands of dollars it could save them over a 10-15 year period.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
They are a better air conditioner than heater though. Only because it works off the basis that the ground temp is around a fixed 58 F or whatever, so if you have that level of temp exchange potential, it means cooler than ideal for humans. They have a tough time, even here, making a house warm and cozy in the winter without at least some extra help. Usually it is an electric "booster" which is just a smallish heating grid like a conventional electric furnace would have. But you can obviously set it up to not make use of that unless the temp gets down to a certain point.

We use wood heat as a supplement source in the colder months. Which of course requires some frequent input, but that is not a big deal if you are in the house anyway. And if you are not in the house, who cares if it drops into the 50s inside?

Nice to see more companies are making these now, and doing the vertical drilling means no more giant grids needing huge amounts of yard space and lots of digging. They just series the holes based on how big of a unit.
 

Chris

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2000
Location
Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, USA
They are a better air conditioner than heater though. Only because it works off the basis that the ground temp is around a fixed 58 F or whatever, so if you have that level of temp exchange potential, it means cooler than ideal for humans. They have a tough time, even here, making a house warm and cozy in the winter without at least some extra help. Usually it is an electric "booster" which is just a smallish heating grid like a conventional electric furnace would have. But you can obviously set it up to not make use of that unless the temp gets down to a certain point.
I find this confusing.

Are you saying that the heat exchanger gets sized for cooling and thus is insufficient for the amount of heat needed to heat the house on a cold day?

With outdoor coils I can see why the ambient temperature would play a big part, but if you've got a more or less constant 58° (for instance) ground temperature I had hoped that you'd need no boost heat at all, even in really cold weather.

We run our house around 66° during the winter--maybe it would be okay for that.

I honestly hadn't thought about heat pumps at all since moving from Maryland, so I really haven't looked into this.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The most basic way to think about this is to think that whatever the temp is in your house, the system can always pull it towards 59 F without any extra help. That is an oversimplification but the essential kernel of how the system works is there.

So, if it is a hot summer day and it is 95 F, then the ability to pull the temp towards 59 F is great! Because you can easily pull it right past the 72 F mark that *most* humans are comfortable with (I prefer it a bit colder).

But if it is 15 F, the system will still pull it towards 59 F, but cannot get it OVER that to 72 F (or even 66 F) because it cannot ever get it warmer than the temp of the ground, which is fixed, without some boosting of some sort.

So while it IS a good heater AND air conditioner, it is still a better (more efficient) air conditioner than heater. And the type installers use varies based on climate due to this fact. In Florida, you won't need the same system you would need in Wisconsin, even if the size of the house in question is identical, simply because of the loads required from the normal swings in climate in those two very different areas.
 

KITEWAGON

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Location
Seacoast, NH
TDI
2014 Touareg Exec, 2014 JSW
But if it is 15 F, the system will still pull it towards 59 F, but cannot get it OVER that to 72 F (or even 66 F) because it cannot ever get it warmer than the temp of the ground, which is fixed, without some boosting of some sort.
This is the only part where you are a little confused. The "boosting" in the GSHP system is the "HP". The heat pump. I've never heard of anyone doing a direct "ground exchange" system although I suppose that someone out there probably is trying it.

My opinion is that the new breed of VRF ASHP's (air source) are a much better option than GSHP's. They are generally slightly less efficient, but they are WAY WAY WAY cheaper than GSHP's.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
The most basic way to think about this is to think that whatever the temp is in your house, the system can always pull it towards 59 F without any extra help. That is an oversimplification but the essential kernel of how the system works is there.
So, if it is a hot summer day and it is 95 F, then the ability to pull the temp towards 59 F is great! Because you can easily pull it right past the 72 F mark that *most* humans are comfortable with (I prefer it a bit colder).
But if it is 15 F, the system will still pull it towards 59 F, but cannot get it OVER that to 72 F (or even 66 F) because it cannot ever get it warmer than the temp of the ground, which is fixed, without some boosting of some sort.
So while it IS a good heater AND air conditioner, it is still a better (more efficient) air conditioner than heater. And the type installers use varies based on climate due to this fact. In Florida, you won't need the same system you would need in Wisconsin, even if the size of the house in question is identical, simply because of the loads required from the normal swings in climate in those two very different areas.
That's not quite right. A ground sourced heat pump can both cool well below the ground temp., and heat well above it. The air source heat pumps that are extremely popular these days do have a hard time heating when ambient temps drop below freezing. They are quite good at cooling though. A ground source system is exceptional though- twice as efficient as air source.
 
Last edited:

KITEWAGON

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Location
Seacoast, NH
TDI
2014 Touareg Exec, 2014 JSW
The air source heat pumps that are extremely popular these days do have a hard time heating when ambient temps drop below freezing. They are quite good at cooling though.
Yes and no. They make extended low range units that heat well down to -13 F (Mitsubishi Hyperheat for example). But that is a significant challenge in northern climates unless you are using them in a modern "low load" type building. As it gets colder and colder outside you need more and more heat and you get less heat.

I think that the majority of people using ASHP's for heat in new england are using them for shoulder season heating or using them with backup heat for periods of extreme cold. But that is changing.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I think you guys are missing the point. They ALL use a heat pump. It is the efficiency of it that is dictated off of where the temp exchange happens. Since that medium is the Earth, which is at a constant temp below a few inches on down to a few hundred feet, it becomes more efficient at cooling rather than heating. If you lived in a cave, you would never need an air conditioner... you'd need a heater though! :)

Same way the cooling system in your car is more efficient at removal of heat from the engine on a cold day than it would be on a hot day. If you only ever drove around in 0 F ambient temps, the engine could get by with a much smaller radiator! :p

I was on board with geothermal way back before most people had even heard of it. Waterfurnace was the brand of choice back then, although now there are lots of others. My aunt & uncle's new place got a Bosch unit.

The price has come down, but not by a whole lot. So the ROI is really the only thing that would push folks to buy one. And if you are not staying in a house very long (or worse, renting), then it makes little sense. Although when my dad sold his other place, he pretty much got 80% of the cost of the system back because it added that much value to the property... and this was easily 10+ years after the break even point. So long term they are a great investment. I will probably be at a break even point in a few years.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I think the ROI for a typical geothermal heat pump system is around 5-7 years these days. An adequately sized system can heat a large house to 100+ degrees using ground temps. of 45 degrees. I think a dollar of electricity into a good ground source heat pump system will yield 3 dollars worth of heat from a typical electrical resistance heating system.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Yes, it just depends on the house, the area, etc. Mine uses an auxiliary heater grid, and it NEEDS that on very cold days without the wood burner going. There is a control panel that keeps track of all that, and you can elect to have it not use the heating element if you wish. It rarely ever comes on unless it dips into single digits overnight, and if I kept the thermostat at a lower setting it likely would not even need that.

The main reason I even wanted that was in case there was a failure of the system, and I was not around, the heating element alone can keep the house from freezing preventing burst pipes, etc. Although the company that installed it said the standard systems they use have them by default anyway, unless someone specifically does not want it. Which I do not know why you wouldn't, as it only adds about $300 to the price IIRC. And of course it needs its own dedicated circuit from the panel, but that was already there from the previous furnace anyway.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Yup. The problem some folks in colder climates have isn't that the ground source heat pump is any less efficient at heating vs. cooling, it's the differential between indoor and outdoor temps. On a 95* day that differential for cooling is only 25* if the thermostat is set at 70*. On a 20* day that differential is 50*. So a system that's adequate in size for all of the cooling needs might not be adequate for all of the heating needs.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
YES! That "differential" was the wording I was thinking of, thank you. Better explanation than I was giving.
 

CraziFuzzy

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Location
Jurupa Valley
TDI
'09 JSW (GoneBack) - replaced with '15 Azera and '16 Fiat 500e.
GSHP's are still very much dependend on the geology and the hydrology of a given area. A very dry bedrock can lead to reduced performance later in a given season (heating or cooling) if there is little hydrology to take the heat away from the loops, then it ends up just storing (or removing) that heat near them as the season goes on. Conversely, a location where there is a lot of water in a relitively high water table, and especially one that has s decent amount of movement, can make for a very efficient system.

Some areas (like where I live) would be best served instead by an evaporative condenser, since the bulk of our cooling season (with the exception of the periodic monsoons) come with very dry weather (dewpoint around 30°F). An evaporative condenser can run very efficiently, and the water used MORE than makes up for the electrical savings. This is essentially the same as the large numbers of commercial chillers using cooling towers.

Just like vehicles, it always comes down to which is best for a specific situation, and generalizations just lead to disagreements.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
The most common gshp systems in my area utilize drilled wells or ponds for the outside loop. So there is typically plenty of water to pull the heat/cold away. They do perform best in moderate climates where the temperature "lift" or differential between indoor and outdoor loops is at a minimum.
 

CraziFuzzy

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Location
Jurupa Valley
TDI
'09 JSW (GoneBack) - replaced with '15 Azera and '16 Fiat 500e.
The most common gshp systems in my area utilize drilled wells or ponds for the outside loop. So there is typically plenty of water to pull the heat/cold away. They do perform best in moderate climates where the temperature "lift" or differential between indoor and outdoor loops is at a minimum.
That's the case for any heat pump. The "work" the pump is doing is directly related to the difference between evaporator and condenser pressures, which are directly related to indoor and outdoor temperatures. This is not anything specific to ground source. In fact, it is reducing this difference that makes a ground source heat pump work better than an air sourced unit in most situations, especially extreme weather.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
That's the case for any heat pump. The "work" the pump is doing is directly related to the difference between evaporator and condenser pressures, which are directly related to indoor and outdoor temperatures. This is not anything specific to ground source. In fact, it is reducing this difference that makes a ground source heat pump work better than an air sourced unit in most situations, especially extreme weather.
Yes, that's why I mentioned it. I certainly wasn't suggesting that gshp's operate on some different principle of thermodynamics than ashp' s. :)
 
Last edited:

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
A very dry bedrock can lead to reduced performance later in a given season (heating or cooling) if there is little hydrology to take the heat away from the loops, then it ends up just storing (or removing) that heat near them as the season goes on.
Although storing heat isn't necessarily a bad thing...

I wonder if borehole seasonal thermal energy storage will ever scale down to the individual home level - it appears to work (in Alberta of all places) at the suburb level, although that system isn't using heat pumps AFAIK: https://www.dlsc.ca/borehole.htm
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top