No start after timing belt replacement

Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Location
Harbor Springs, MI
TDI
2001 VW Golf TDI
Hello,
I have a 2001 VW Golf TDI, with 190,000 miles on it. about 3 weeks ago, my car apparently skipped time on the injection pump, and my car lost power (did not shut down, I had to turn the key off after I pulled over). I had it towed to a shop that said they knew TDIs... bought a timing belt kit from KermaTDI, with a water pump and the shop said they would do the work for me. Apparently they couldnt get the timing belt to "fit" correctly... or maybe couldnt time it correctly I am not sure... so they took initiative and bought a different belt, the T321 is what came with my KermaTDI kit, and they bought and placed a T301 belt. I was not very happy about it because they did it without even telling me... and I can't find anywhere that says the T321 would not work with my car. Anyway, when I went and picked it up... it wouldnt start. Brand New battery, yes glow plugs were a little old, but I always started fine. Even cold starts, it cranked right over and off I was. It took them a while but they got it running. I checked the glow plugs, found one that was way off, replaced it. still had problems starting... every day since I picked it back up. Progressively getting worse and harder to start. I bought the other 3 glow plugs, replaced those. It was pretty cold the other morning, and the (new) battery actually died while I was trying to get it to start, and it never would start. Charged the battery, still no start. At first, after I picked it up from the shop it had a whole bunch of white smoke while cranking it over, now it cranks, but no smoke, and no start. Ideas? I am hesitant to take it back to the shop because I didnt like how they handled the timing belt replacement, but I think if they messed something up setting the time, they should correct it. Sorry for the novel.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Sounds like late timing. Been running long enough to figger airs fully purged.

Did they use VCDS to time it?

The fact that they couldn't get the belt on leads me to believe they didn't unbolt the cam sprocket.

I'm assuming the cam didn't loose timing in the original incident which may not be a good assumption based on the apparent knowledge of the mechanic.

I'd get it to someone on the list at the top of this Forum and at least remove the cam to check the followers for damage.
 
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Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Location
Harbor Springs, MI
TDI
2001 VW Golf TDI
I believe they used VCDS... but I didn't watch them so I cant guarantee it. They work on imports, mostly Audis. I'm wondering if the timing belt for an Audi is much different than my Golf and they didn't do it correctly?

I will say- the car ran, I drove it a good distance, the problem is starting it, but not necessarily driving it. Obviously it could be the starter... but I am a little concerned because I had no starter trouble before the shop, perfect starts every time. And I heard no signs of the starter going bad or getting worn until the day I went to pick it up. Would late timing affect starting and running? or just starting?
 

belome

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Location
Mid MI
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5-speed
I know I'm a pessimist but your post just sounds scary to me. I hope they did a darn good job of determining if the cam and crank ever lost time. Sadly, if a valve did kiss a piston it will run for awhile and eventually the valve head will drop off with catastrophic results.

I know it is a long drive, but there is a guru in Cedar Springs that could fix you right up.

He is in the trusted list:

Kirk Blackmore "r90sKirk"
Rockford, Michigan
rockfordtdiguy@gmail.com
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Location
Harbor Springs, MI
TDI
2001 VW Golf TDI
ugh. I know... me too.... I asked them multiple times if they were sure the cam and crank didn't lose time. (seeing how the belt kit replacement and labor cost me $1200... I didn't want to be doing it for nothing) I drive past Cedar Springs a lot actually, heading down to Grand Rapids, so I will contact him. Thanks!
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
I agree this is a scary story. My first thought was they didn't remove the cam sprocket also or at least loosen it. On an ALH the belt fits tight but they shouldn't have had any problem getting it on. Not like a BEW where you almost have to slide the cam sprocket off. That belt from Kerma should have fit right on there. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that was the first TDI they've ever done. Definitely take it to some one who knows what they are doing.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Nope. It is only difficult to install if you don't remove the cam sprocket which is what makes me suspicious of their methods. Once it's in place the timing is determined by tooth spacing.

By using a longer belt they had to rotate the tensioner to an abnormal position. I don't know if that's ok without trying it. I can see where you might not be able to get enough tension depending on where the stud is located.
 
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KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
When it lost power you stopped driving. Did the shop drive it before doing the belt? Did they verify that injection timing was off but the cam wasn't?

Maybe you never had a timing problem and it was the pump that failed in the beginning?
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Yep! Scary Story ...

And, there is no way anyone can convince me that the TB skipped a tooth on the IP sprocket. The IP is the easiest item in the path of the TB to rotate, excluding rollers/idlers. If the TB in fact jumped a tooth, it would have been at the crankshaft sprocket where the greatest amount of stress and least number of teeth making contact.

White Smoke is a timing issue. If it wasn't doing white smoke on start-ups prior to the incident, then it is not an air issue either (no partially plugged EGR or Intake).

You need to find a guru ... Also, they need to give you the TB that you purchased and not charge you for the one they bought and installed.... just saying!
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Location
Harbor Springs, MI
TDI
2001 VW Golf TDI
The water pump was bad, the bearing failed, which I heard right before it lost power. I had it towed to the shop that did the belt replacement, and I don't think they drove it first, but they did take a while to diagnose it. There was a partial plugged EGR valve, that they cleaned up when they had it.
When I picked it up 2 weeks ago, I told them how I felt about the belt etc. They didn't charge me for the belt they bought, but they held onto the belt I bought... and were going to call a tech at KermaTDI to talk about why they couldn't use it. Karma said they would refund it to me, but that they believe it should have worked fine. Apparently they couldn't get ahold of the tech with Kerma..
If it were a starter issue... is there a way to fidget or trick it into starting, so I can at least get it down to the guru in Cedar Springs? I am supposed to be driving to Grand Rapids anyway tonight... but can't get the car to start even to get it to the shop for them to have another look.
Could I have done something to mess it up when I changed the glow plugs? Its hard for me to think that because I changed them because I was having this problem... I wanted to get that out of the way, and it is still there. It does turn over, just doesn't fire. It sounded like it was going to a few times, and then wouldn't. By then, the battery died. And now I am getting worried that I ruined the starter anyway at this point :/
Thanks for all the replies. Even if you are all bearers of bad news.
Yep! Scary Story ...
And, there is no way anyone can convince me that the TB skipped a tooth on the IP sprocket. The IP is the easiest item in the path of the TB to rotate, excluding rollers/idlers. If the TB in fact jumped a tooth, it would have been at the crankshaft sprocket where the greatest amount of stress and least number of teeth making contact.
White Smoke is a timing issue. If it wasn't doing white smoke on start-ups prior to the incident, then it is not an air issue either (no partially plugged EGR or Intake).
You need to find a guru ... Also, they need to give you the TB that you purchased and not charge you for the one they bought and installed.... just saying!
 

pdq import repair

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
idaho
TDI
09 Jetta
I have seen the crank pulley wear and strip out at the key and alter timing on the early models like this. Did they remove and inspect the pulley? I seriously doubt they pulled it off, as you don't normally unless you do a seal, but the early ones I always do. Also good to confirm TDC on the flywheel rather than trust the locking tool outright when setting cam timing.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
If the water pump failed and caused the pump to loose timing then I agree with Andy and the cam prolly went out too.

You may have cratered lifters and/or bent valves causing low compression/hard starting.

Again, did they check the cam/lifters for damaged? These are INTERFERENCE engines. If the cam goes out of time more than a few degrees the valves hit.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Location
Harbor Springs, MI
TDI
2001 VW Golf TDI
Yes, as far as they told me, they inspected for damage to the cam/lifters.

They kit I purchased that they used had this in it
Timing Belt 038 109 119 M
Serp belt 038 903 137J
Tensioner 038 109 243N
Camseal 038 103 085C
Large roller 038 109 244M
Small top roller 058 109 244
Small roller bottom 038 109 244E
Waterpump 038 121 011A


Additionally the kit includes 1.5L of VW Longlife G12 Coolant and the deluxe bolt kit:

1x Large roller bolt N 905 969 02
1x Engine bracket bolt long N 103 280 01
2x Engine mount to body N 105 167 02
2x Engine bracket bolt N 102 096 05
2x Engine bracket bolt short N 907 124 01
3x Injection pump bolts N 903 285 04
3x Valve cover bolts N 101 725 01
3x Sound Dampener screws N 907 750 01
4x Vibration dampener bolts N 903 396 03
1x EGR valve o-ring seal N 905 216 01
1x Vacuum Pump Seal 038 145 345

That is 3 pulleys right? Or is the crank pulley different and not included in this kit?
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
................................. a shop that said they knew TDIs...................................
They lied to you. Proceed with caution.
The fact that they used a different belt is very suspicious. I can not see Kerma sending the wrong part for that model car, did they use a longer one?
I'd be shocked if they got it timed correct, likely why it won't start (unless the fuel system was open and now has air in it).
 

belome

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Location
Mid MI
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5-speed
Get the battery charged up good. If it isn't spinning fast enough it wont' start.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Location
Harbor Springs, MI
TDI
2001 VW Golf TDI
They said it was a production number difference. Cars made in that year before April, and after April apparently. Also... the belt was the same length, and even had the same number of teeth, it had a slightly different shape- like more a rounded edge then square possibly?

Both are good enough for my car- one is rated for a different change interval... .which I told them mattered to me.. I dont want a 40K mile belt, I need a 100k belt.

We live in a small town, its not that I am too worried about them outright lying or trying to screw me... I do worry they just don't know what they are doing though.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Location
Harbor Springs, MI
TDI
2001 VW Golf TDI
The battery is brand new... maybe 4 months old at most. But the repair shop is going there now with a battery charger and they are going to charge it up and see if they can get it to start. I don't know if thats a good or bad thing :( wish me luck.

Get the battery charged up good. If it isn't spinning fast enough it wont' start.
 

pdq import repair

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
idaho
TDI
09 Jetta
They do show a build date change on the timing belt on that year, but the old numbers are unavailable anymore and supercede to the later model. It all interchanges especially if you use the whole kit.

I don't know for certain, but I would guess that your shop is not fluent in TDI speak. You did pay them to do the job though, so they may have to learn.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Location
Harbor Springs, MI
TDI
2001 VW Golf TDI
I tried to say that to them... but unfortunately it was after the fact. which was frustrating to say the least. Worst part was... I was leaving for a trip to CA a couple days later- and had to make it to the airport so needed my car.

I think they are doing some research on the issue now though.... after much 'harassment' by me. So my sentiment exactly... they may have to learn. They are working with me on it... I think. fingerscrossed
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Location
Harbor Springs, MI
TDI
2001 VW Golf TDI
*update*

The repair shop drove over to my house to try and get it started... He said that while one guy was trying to start it, the other noticed quite a bit of air in the fuel line over by the fuel filter...

He said it could be a seal or valve that went bad and is letting air in..?

Could that have been caused by or when they did the timing belt change? Is it just a coincidence that it happened literally the same time they did the work on the car?

They couldn't start it, so they are towing it to their shop... and as soon as I can get it running I will head down to Cedar Springs and have them check it out.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Air can get in the filter if they removed it to do the job or even tweaked the hoses to move it out of the way. The thing is you seem to have run it enough for air to maybe not be a problem.

The obvious question to me is how they timed it. Did they lock the cam and pump and loosen the cam gear to install the belt?

Did they then use VCDS to verify the pump timing?

Or did they do some sort of mark and pray timing set up that was based on a presumed out of time pump?
 

pdq import repair

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
idaho
TDI
09 Jetta
They need to start from scratch, check the bottom sprocket keyway, install the real timing belt, confirm TDC at the flywheel when the lock is in place to confirm lock is accurate.

They will start real hard if the timing drifts a few degrees. Air in the line should bleed out as it runs unless they boogered a seal or hose pulling it off to do the work.

Tell them not to burn up your starter.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
I call BS.

According to Gates the belts are essentially the same:

T321:

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/v...e-belts/vehicle-timing-belts/timing-belt-t321

T301:

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/v...e-belts/vehicle-timing-belts/timing-belt-t301

Everything is the same! Pitch is the same. Pitch length in inches is the same. Number of teeth is the same. Top width is the same. Only difference is that the T321 is "Highly Saturated Nitrile W/Jacket" Given this difference, and that the T301 is about 20% cheaper, I'd have to say that you've got an inferior belt now.

If I had to guess as to what happened it's that they tried forcing the belt on with the cam sprocket in place and messed that new belt up. Somewhere along the line they decided to become "professionals" and looked up how to actually do the TB- they then popped the cam sprocket.

Get ALL parts back. Then get your car to an actual knowledgeable TDI person!
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Belts are the same as far as fitment .....

My 2000 Jetta has always put air through the fuel hose to the IP ........ I quit long ago trying to find the reason. It has never, ever let me down due to any fuel issue, 360k miles on the odie...

Also, I do not believe the 2001 ALH engine has a Key-way issue at the crankshaft... never heard of it. The TDIs before the ALH did have a problem as I understand.

This problem is all about timing! Period!

Sadly, they may screw-up more things feeling around in the dark!

I'm sorry to say, your Battery is going to be junk by the time this is all over!
 

eddieleephd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Battle Ground, Wa
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
If they didn't give you the belt you purchased I would go back and get it.
I wouldn't take no for an answer!

I also wouldn't ever take my car to someone who isn't on the trusted mechanics list.
I work on my own car unless there is a reason I can't!

I agree with the others above about them not taking the cam sprocket off.
Although it is doable, they put a different belt on which leads me to believe that the timing is out due to to large a belt.

I would go back and raise hell, make them give me the belt they didn't put on and have them do some other work to replace their time you paid for that you didn't get any benefit out of!
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Andy's right on the air. All Diesel fuel has air dissolved in it. When it goes through the tortuous path of the filter some comes out of solution.

Nonbelievers can refer to the air removal systems the guys run on their big trucks.
 
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bbarbulo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2003
Location
Windsor, ON, Canada
I agree, the two belts are identical in every way. I'm using a Gates 321 belt on a 2000 ALH that should in theory be using the 301 belt, BUT all the components are the matching 'long life' components. Same with the kit you bought.

Now, in the same fashion they installed the 301 belt, they could have also installed the 321 belt. Since, as we agree, the two are identical. Yes, they may have damaged the 321 belt from the kit trying to stretch it on without removing the cam sprocket. I would ask to have that belt back, see what they say.

I also agree that the hard starting may be a result of slight piston-valve contact OR it could be a result of poor injection timing. Just a hair either way on that sprocket makes a world of difference in starting.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Location
Harbor Springs, MI
TDI
2001 VW Golf TDI
Shop said they found a valve at the fuel filter allowing air in the system, they replaced the filter and sealing ring at valve. Apparently the car starts and runs fine now. I have not been out to it yet, I will see when I get done at work. Is this common enough to feel confident this was the starting issue? Or should I be ever concerned and still make the drive to have the timing checked?
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Shop said they found a valve at the fuel filter allowing air in the system, they replaced the filter and sealing ring at valve. Apparently the car starts and runs fine now. I have not been out to it yet, I will see when I get done at work. Is this common enough to feel confident this was the starting issue? Or should I be ever concerned and still make the drive to have the timing checked?
Did you have starting issues before the TB change? If not then it's either related to "the event" or to something that the shop did.

Have them give you a graph of your timing: or at least data supporting it; I'd prefer the later because it should be from a log that will contain information identifying your car- VCDS does this, not sure if what they're using would, but it should.
 
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