Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
I do not think it is unreasonable for people to rent a vehicle to do something they rarely need a vehicle to do. Not everyone needs or wants several cars. And they may not have a place to keep them, especially living in an urban area. This is polar opposite from me, but I find no fault in someone making a different choice that suits their needs.

I rarely drive my F150, and truthfully I do not need it, but it is paid for, cheap to license and insure, I have PLENTY of space it park it, and I kinda like it (keeps my in touch with my fellow Missourian rednecks). I could just as easily rent a truck for the handful of times a year I really would need it... or just use my trailer behind the Golf (which I already do sometimes).

If I did not choose to live in the country, where everything save for Walmart is a 100 mile round trip, I think an EV would be a welcome addition to my "fleet". But there are not any [yet] that I really would want to own. The eGolf and 500e are pretty close, though. But their real world range is not so good.
 

VeeDubTDI

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I'm looking around at Fiat 500es. They're coming in from California off-lease with anywhere from 6,000 - 30,000 miles and a price of $7,000 - $10,000. Pretty darn good price for a cute little run-about. I'm also waiting for Smart to introduce the new convertible in EV trim... I'd consider doing a three year lease on one of those if the price was right.

As for renting cars, I know a few people who will rent a car for long distance travel when they have a perfectly capable vehicle at home. Their reasoning is usually either because they don't think their current car will make it or they don't want to put that many miles on their own car. If you really only need a certain type vehicle for a handful of days per year, it makes more sense to rent it than to own and pay property taxes (location dependent) and insurance on it just to have it sit around for 360 out of 365 days.
 
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pkhoury

That guy with the goats
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I'm a little late to this thread, but on the range issue - if you run the AC full blast, does that significantly lower the range on an EV? When I do long road trips, I usually put in about 500-800 miles a day (3200 miles in the past 5 days, and I start driving back home tomorrow). I don't think an EV is ready for mainstream use, because what does one do if they're rural, and the only way to charge back up is via 120V? I read somewhere that to go from empty to full would take over a day and a half on a Tesla, and for a measly 300 miles at best? I still wonder what real world driving would be, like jack rabbit starts, AC running all the time in the summer when you have animals in the car, what range looks like when towing 2800 pounds behind you, etc.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
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If I did not choose to live in the country, where everything save for Walmart is a 100 mile round trip, I think an EV would be a welcome addition to my "fleet". But there are not any [yet] that I really would want to own. The eGolf and 500e are pretty close, though. But their real world range is not so good.
You must really live in the sticks. The liquor store is only a 25 mile round trip, and Walmart is about 65 miles round trip for me. And, having driving from Springfield to Jackson, TN on Saturday, I've noticed that Missourians LOVE their trucks.
 

CraziFuzzy

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I'm a little late to this thread, but on the range issue - if you run the AC full blast, does that significantly lower the range on an EV? When I do long road trips, I usually put in about 500-800 miles a day (3200 miles in the past 5 days, and I start driving back home tomorrow). I don't think an EV is ready for mainstream use, because what does one do if they're rural, and the only way to charge back up is via 120V? I read somewhere that to go from empty to full would take over a day and a half on a Tesla, and for a measly 300 miles at best? I still wonder what real world driving would be, like jack rabbit starts, AC running all the time in the summer when you have animals in the car, what range looks like when towing 2800 pounds behind you, etc.
"mainstream use" is NOT 500-800 miles a day. Most vehicles on the road in the US drive <40 miles/day (12,000-15,000 miles/year).

regarding the AC. it depends on the outside temperature how much it actually uses. My fiat automatically reduces the estimated range remaining by 10% when the HVAC system is running. Actual AC use doesn't impact it that much, but heating does (the fiat uses electric resistive heat instead of the heat pump, so it's a hit - but it was designed for California, so heating is rarely an issue).

(And you aren't late to the thread - you've already commented 22 times here).
 
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bhtooefr

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I don't think an EV is ready for mainstream use, because what does one do if they're rural, and the only way to charge back up is via 120V?
If you're running significant range on a BEV in a rural area, you'll want to install a 240 volt EVSE to get faster home charging. Tesla's own EVSE is capable of doing 40 or 80 amps at 240 volts - 9.6 or 19.2 kW, which is a hell of a lot faster than the 12 amps that you'll usually get off of 120 volts, for 1.44 kW.

That said, the majority of the US population (although using different measurement methods of urban vs. rural) has been urban since the 1920 census, and in the 2010 census, was 80.7% of the population - so rural isn't mainstream. (The method of determining urban vs. rural population changed in 1950 to bias things more towards rural, and it changed again in 2000 (not sure of the effect, but it might bias towards urban.)
 
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AntonLargiader

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In cold (10~20 degree) weather the range of the Volt dropped from 40 to the mid 20s, due to the electric heat. That was projected range; not sure what actual was in those cases. EVs tend to have seat heat because it's way more efficient than heating the cabin air.

My in-laws have driven their Model S cross-country a few times. When they go away from the Supercharger network, things can get challenging with very slow charging at Level 2 stations. Some of those stations are slower than charging at home, where they have 40A x 240V. And they report a noticeable hit to the projected range with AC on, but they never really test the battery range so it's not an issue for them.

FWIW the charge rate is generally thought of in "Miles per hour" as in how many miles of range do you get per hour of charging. Superchargers give 250~400 depending on state of charge, which is completely viable for long-distance driving, but smaller chargers can be way lower which is basically not viable for a quick refuel. They have encountered chargers that gave them 15, 18 miles per hour which is obviously a problem. But they were only needing enough range to get to a relative's house or another supercharger.

A double 50A breaker wired to a 14-50 receptacle would make a great travel gadget...
 

El Dobro

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I have a Gen 1 Volt, with the "smaller" battery. Even with my out of state trips, the car is still running at 74% EV.
 

Oilerlord

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I'm looking around at Fiat 500es. They're coming in from California off-lease with anywhere from 6,000 - 30,000 miles and a price of $7,000 - $10,000. Pretty darn good price for a cute little run-about.
I've seen those too. Crazy low prices, and pretty easy to get that $7,000 back considering no oil changes, and if you live in an area with cheap kWh's or free public charging.

As for renting cars, I know a few people who will rent a car for long distance travel when they have a perfectly capable vehicle at home. Their reasoning is usually either because they don't think their current car will make it or they don't want to put that many miles on their own car. If you really only need a certain type vehicle for a handful of days per year, it makes more sense to rent it than to own and pay property taxes (location dependent) and insurance on it just to have it sit around for 360 out of 365 days.
I'll qualify my last statement regarding renting a car because your EV can't make the trip. I'll stipulate that "most" of us only drive ~40 miles per day as per the national average. If you rarely make trips beyond your EV's range, sure...rent a car. I just see the argument made too often.

Notwithstanding long, cross-country trips, I think a lot of people still do make 100 mile trips fairly regularly. I don't rent cars for those trips, but in fairness, I suppose a lot of people do. My bad.
 
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VeeDubTDI

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I've seen those too. Crazy low prices, and pretty easy to get that $7,000 back considering no oil changes, and if you live in an area with cheap kWh's or free public charging.



I'll qualify my last statement regarding renting a car because your EV can't make the trip. I'll stipulate that "most" of us only drive ~40 miles per day as per the national average. If you rarely make trips beyond your EV's range, sure...rent a car. I just see the argument made too often.

Notwithstanding long, cross-country trips, I think a lot of people still do make 100 mile trips fairly regularly. I don't rent cars for those trips, but in fairness, I suppose a lot of people do. My bad.
Our power company is coming out tomorrow to change our standard meter to a "smart" time-of-use meter. As long as we charge during off-peak times (overnight and on weekends), the energy cost to drive an EV will be around one cent per mile. Compare that to 8 cents per mile for our Passat and Mk4 Jetta. Driven 10,000 miles per year, that adds up to $800 in energy/fuel savings alone. I'm not saying that we're replacing both of those cars, but those are the numbers for comparison purposes.

I think you're right that quite a few people take 100 mile trips on a semi-regular basis; say, once per month or more. At that rate, it certainly wouldn't be a good financial value to rent a car on a monthly basis. That said, there are a few EVs available now that will accommodate that type of driving style - any Tesla, the Chevy Bolt, the soon-to-be new Nissan LEAF (at 200 miles range), and, of course, any plug-in hybrid like the Chevy Volt. Low range compliance cars really aren't good for single-car households unless you truly never leave the city. However, they can be a great second or third car in a multi-car household, as well as being a great financial value if purchased used.
 

Oilerlord

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Our power company is coming out tomorrow to change our standard meter to a "smart" time-of-use meter. As long as we charge during off-peak times (overnight and on weekends), the energy cost to drive an EV will be around one cent per mile. Compare that to 8 cents per mile for our Passat and Mk4 Jetta. Driven 10,000 miles per year, that adds up to $800 in energy/fuel savings alone. I'm not saying that we're replacing both of those cars, but those are the numbers for comparison purposes.
Our smart meter was installed as part of our solar installation. We don't have TOU rates where we live, but I'm on a spot pricing plan with our poco. Last month, we the electricity charge was only 3.8 cents per kWh but with fees & taxes - 9.6 cents per kWh. We do get paid the base electricity rate for power we export, but aren't able to "bank" credits from our solar. This is where the EV comes in. There is way more value in charging up my car using my solar instead of getting paid that piddly 3.8 cents from our poco.

I do recognize that there is a value of 3.8 cents per kWh that is going into my car's battery assuming 100% is being delivered from my solar - so those solar-generated 28 kWh's are worth $1.06. Even without solar, and rounding up to 10 cents per kWh, charging my 28 kWh battery would cost $2.80 to drive up to 100 miles. Still, pretty cheap driving...and again, no oil changes and likely no brake pad replacements because of regenerative braking.

I'm with you. It's tough to beat the economics of a $7,000 electric car if the owner can accept the reality of an 80 mile range.
 
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CraziFuzzy

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Our smart meter was installed as part of our solar installation. We don't have TOU rates where we live, but I'm on a spot pricing plan with our poco. Last month, we the electricity charge was only 3.8 cents per kWh but with fees & taxes - 9.6 cents per kWh. We do get paid the base electricity rate for power we export, but aren't able to "bank" credits from our solar. This is where the EV comes in. There is way more value in charging up my car using my solar instead of getting paid that piddly 3.8 cents from our poco.

I do recognize that there is a value of 3.8 cents per kWh that is going into my car's battery assuming 100% is being delivered from my solar - so those solar-generated 28 kWh's are worth $1.06. Even without solar, and rounding up to 10 cents per kWh, charging my 28 kWh battery would cost $2.80 to drive up to 100 miles. Still, pretty cheap driving...and again, no oil changes and likely no brake pad replacements because of regenerative braking.

I'm with you. It's tough to beat the economics of a $7,000 electric car if the owner can accept the reality of an 80 mile range.
The craziest thing of that $7000 fiat, is when my 3 year, 30,000 mile lease is up on my '16 fiat, the lease residual - on paper - is close to $20,000. When the exact same car is selling used for $7,000, that's a seriously crazy leasing situation.
The reality is, Fiat is not truly losing money on the 500e - because the guys buying the big dodge trucks (that fiat wouldn't be able to sell here without the 500e) are covering it for me. I certainly appreciate them doing so when i pass the gas station and see them there also paying way more road taxes than I.

Smart meters here in southern california are being installed automatically by the utility on a roll-out schedule. ToU rates are optional currently.
 
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bhtooefr

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Well, and being a Type I.5 ZEV, the 500e gets 2.5 credits.

Each credit is worth $5000 (because that's the fine per car that doesn't have a credit to compensate for it), meaning that each 500e sold in a ZEV state (and they're only sold in ZEV states) is worth $12,500 to FCA. That means they're eating a lot less than the $13,000 that the difference between residual and actual resale value would imply.
 

Oilerlord

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The Fiat CEO once quoted the "loss" at $14,000 per 500e sold. No doubt that's the cost of doing business / complying with regulations, but it's a loss per unit sold nonetheless. No manufacturer wants to build a $32,000 car, and inflate the residual just so they can get them out the door at $59 per month.
 

pkhoury

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If you're running significant range on a BEV in a rural area, you'll want to install a 240 volt EVSE to get faster home charging. Tesla's own EVSE is capable of doing 40 or 80 amps at 240 volts - 9.6 or 19.2 kW, which is a hell of a lot faster than the 12 amps that you'll usually get off of 120 volts, for 1.44 kW.
Wouldn't it still take over a day to fully charge the battery up to 100% capacity (or at least 100% as reported to the consumer)? I also wonder what the cost would be, based on electricity being about 12-13 cents a kilowatt hour.

That said, the majority of the US population (although using different measurement methods of urban vs. rural) has been urban since the 1920 census, and in the 2010 census, was 80.7% of the population - so rural isn't mainstream. (The method of determining urban vs. rural population changed in 1950 to bias things more towards rural, and it changed again in 2000 (not sure of the effect, but it might bias towards urban.)
I suppose that makes sense; it'd be interesting so see what percentage of the whole US population does < or = 20 miles a day, > 20 miles, >100, and >400. Even for those in suburban/urban areas, I have a feeling that a lot more miles than average would also negate the benefits of an electric vehicle. In my case, I only need to stop to get fuel, or a bathroom break (which takes between 1 and 4 minutes, depending on whether I use a rest stop or the shoulder).
 

bhtooefr

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Wouldn't it still take over a day to fully charge the battery up to 100% capacity (or at least 100% as reported to the consumer)? I also wonder what the cost would be, based on electricity being about 12-13 cents a kilowatt hour.
So, the biggest battery currently available in a production electric car is the 100 kWh battery option for the Tesla Model S and X. Assuming that 100% of the stated capacity is used (it isn't, for battery longevity reasons)...

At 19.2 kW (80 amps), that would take approximately 5.2 hours to charge (note that the rate of charge may taper off at the end, increasing that time some). This is the maximum charge rate for a Tesla, if you've got a 100 A circuit and the High Power Wall Connector.

At 11.5 kW (48 amps), that would take approximately 8.7 hours (also, the lower the rate of charge relative to the battery size, the less tapering). This is what a single-charger-equipped Tesla can handle. You can do this on a 60 A circuit with the High Power Wall Connector.

At 9.6 kW (40 amps), that would take approximately 10.4 hours. This is what the included Mobile Connector can handle on a 50 A circuit.

At 7.2 kW (30 amps, common rating for aftermarket EVSEs and public L2 charging), that would take approximately 13.9 hours.

At 3.6 kW (15 amps, common in cheap 240 volt EVSEs marketed for short-range cars or PHEVs), that would take 27.8 hours - there's your "over a day" to charge. However, you're probably not using an EVSE rated that low with a Tesla.

At 1.44 kW (120 volts, 12 amps), that would take 69.4 hours.

The general idea is, if you can get your daily usage recharged overnight, that's seen as acceptable for the home charging infrastructure.
 
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pkhoury

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If you're running significant range on a BEV in a rural area, you'll want to install a 240 volt EVSE to get faster home charging. Tesla's own EVSE is capable of doing 40 or 80 amps at 240 volts - 9.6 or 19.2 kW, which is a hell of a lot faster than the 12 amps that you'll usually get off of 120 volts, for 1.44 kW.
Wouldn't it still take over a day to fully charge the battery up to 100% capacity (or at least 100% as reported to the consumer)? I also wonder what the cost would be, based on electricity being about 12-13 cents a kilowatt hour.

That said, the majority of the US population (although using different measurement methods of urban vs. rural) has been urban since the 1920 census, and in the 2010 census, was 80.7% of the population - so rural isn't mainstream. (The method of determining urban vs. rural population changed in 1950 to bias things more towards rural, and it changed again in 2000 (not sure of the effect, but it might bias towards urban.)
I suppose that makes sense; it'd be interesting so see what percentage of the whole US population does < or = 20 miles a day, > 20 miles, >100, and >400. Even for those in suburban/urban areas, I have a feeling that a lot more miles than average would also negate the benefits of an electric vehicle. In my case, I only need to stop to get fuel, or a bathroom break (which takes between 1 and 4 minutes, depending on whether I use a rest stop or the shoulder).
 

pkhoury

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So, the biggest battery currently available in a production electric car is the 100 kWh battery option for the Tesla Model S and X. Assuming that 100% of the stated capacity is used (it isn't, for battery longevity reasons)...

At 19.2 kW (80 amps), that would take approximately 5.2 hours to charge (note that the rate of charge may taper off at the end, increasing that time some). This is the maximum charge rate for a Tesla, if you've got a 100 A circuit and the High Power Wall Connector.
Wow. That's a lot of amperage going through that battery. And here I thought 12A going to a SLA pack I built was fast.

So let me know if I'm calculating this correctly.

80 amps x 240 volts = 19,200 watts

5.2 x 19,200 = 99840 / 1000 = 99.84kWh

99.84kWh x $0.12 = $11.98

Let's say the range is 250 miles per full charge. So $11.98 / 250 miles = 0.04792 (0.05 rounded). So if my calculations are correct, the Tesla would cost about a penny per mile cheaper than my TDI currently costs me, based on my electrical co-op charging around 12 cents a kWh on average (since we used electricity for everything where we live - no propane, natural gas, kerosene, etc).

At 11.5 kW (48 amps), that would take approximately 8.7 hours (also, the lower the rate of charge relative to the battery size, the less tapering). This is what a single-charger-equipped Tesla can handle. You can do this on a 60 A circuit with the High Power Wall Connector.

At 9.6 kW (40 amps), that would take approximately 10.4 hours. This is what the included Mobile Connector can handle on a 50 A circuit.

At 7.2 kW (30 amps, common rating for aftermarket EVSEs and public L2 charging), that would take approximately 13.9 hours.

At 3.6 kW (15 amps, common in cheap 240 volt EVSEs marketed for short-range cars or PHEVs), that would take 27.8 hours - there's your "over a day" to charge. However, you're probably not using an EVSE rated that low with a Tesla.

At 1.44 kW (120 volts, 12 amps), that would take 69.4 hours.
I calculated for 120V @ 12A, and the cost would be $11.99, a penny more. So it seems to be roughly the same. I wonder what the cost would be in states like California, where there are tiers based on total numbers of kWh used each month (I was always in tier 3 or 4, which was more than $0.12/kWh).
 

pkhoury

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I'm also still wondering about towing, but I think this article summed a lot of it up. I can't deal with 17 hours of charging at Supercharger stations for 23 hours of driving, while towing a tiny trailer:

https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model...ange-and-charging-while-towing-a-trailer.html

The writer of this blurb also seemed to drive a lot slower than I do. I usually tow doing 70-79mph, and in a TDI (and with a load ranging from empty, 730 pounds to full, 2800 pounds), I get about 26-33mpg (depending on trip duration and things like headwinds, what seemed to affect the Tesla owner in this article).
 

El Dobro

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Don't forget, that's assuming you're using up the entire battery.
 

nwdiver

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based on my electrical co-op charging around 12 cents a kWh on average
If you're in a rural area with a little space to spare solar might be a good option. It's ridiculously cheap now. A co-worker just purchased a 11kW system for $7k. That's ~$5k after the tax credit. The average cost of electricity over the 20 year life of the system will be ~$0.015/kWh. 11kW of solar will generate ~17,000 kWh/yr in Texas.

Texas is a great place for grid-tied solar. It's got a lot of sun and they have a de-regulated electric market. Since daytime power is currently more valuable than night time power it's possible to get paid more for the excess energy you export during the day than they charge for what you import at night.
 

turbobrick240

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Yeah, Texas gets fantastic insolation. I'm a little disappointed that the Maine public utilities commission just decided to phase out net-metering over the next 15 years. But even considering the phase out and Maine's northern latitude, residential solar is still profitable here.
I'm surprised we haven't yet seen some sort of small travel trailer with auxiliary battery storage built in.
 

kjclow

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I suppose that makes sense; it'd be interesting so see what percentage of the whole US population does < or = 20 miles a day, > 20 miles, >100, and >400. Even for those in suburban/urban areas, I have a feeling that a lot more miles than average would also negate the benefits of an electric vehicle.
I think one of the reasons that the batteries take such a hit in either cold of winter or heat of summer is the amount of time that the car is sitting in traffic. If the average commute is only 20 miles per day, I wonder how much time that commute takes. For me, my 7 mile commute now takes anywhere from 15 to 45 minutes depending on time. If there's something going on to block the main routes, I've had that 7 miles take 90 minutes.
 

bhtooefr

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At least in winter, with a very low traffic commute, but a short trip (about 5 miles), I see a colossal fuel economy hit on my Prius due to having to start the ICE for cabin heating.

Summer, OTOH, I don't see much of a hit unless I'm stopping every couple of miles to do something.

There'll be a degree of commonality here with EV behavior, at least...
 

Oilerlord

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So let me know if I'm calculating this correctly.

80 amps x 240 volts = 19,200 watts

5.2 x 19,200 = 99840 / 1000 = 99.84kWh

99.84kWh x $0.12 = $11.98

Let's say the range is 250 miles per full charge. So $11.98 / 250 miles = 0.04792 (0.05 rounded). So if my calculations are correct, the Tesla would cost about a penny per mile cheaper than my TDI currently costs me, based on my electrical co-op charging around 12 cents a kWh on average (since we used electricity for everything where we live - no propane, natural gas, kerosene, etc).
Keep in mind that 12 cents/kWh may be your base rate. Extra fees such as delivery, distribution, transmission, local access, etc may apply. As I mentioned earlier, my base rate last month was 3.9 cents but my net cost worked out to 9.6 cents after fees & taxes. Here's my latest bill:



The poco credited $120 from the previous period and charged everything again. The energy charge for February was only $29.48 but with fees & taxes - $73.09. That disparity between what electricity costs and what we actually pay drives me nuts.

This may be the first that I've agreed with nwdiver. If you use electricity for everything, you probably are the perfect candidate for solar.
 

rotarykid

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at some point road tax is going to be added to operation of these all electrics ending their current tax cheat ways.....

And that will likely in the form of a yearly fee added to registration, I hope sooner than later!!
 

pkhoury

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If you're in a rural area with a little space to spare solar might be a good option. It's ridiculously cheap now. A co-worker just purchased a 11kW system for $7k. That's ~$5k after the tax credit. The average cost of electricity over the 20 year life of the system will be ~$0.015/kWh. 11kW of solar will generate ~17,000 kWh/yr in Texas.

Texas is a great place for grid-tied solar. It's got a lot of sun and they have a de-regulated electric market. Since daytime power is currently more valuable than night time power it's possible to get paid more for the excess energy you export during the day than they charge for what you import at night.
The only concern for me is where to put it. I suppose it could go on the roof, but hail is also a problem. Both my house and my mother's house were recently declared total loss from 45 minutes of golf ball sized hail (along with all 3 of my cars).

But, this still take out of context my original concern that the cost per mile is but a penny cheaper than my TDI, based on my cost per mile for this year's driving (which is only about 8000 miles for the JSW).

It looks like I might've been off and we're actually paying closer to 9 cents per kWh. Even so, bills around $300/mo in the summertime are pretty normal (but that's for 2 houses with HVAC and appliances, 3 refrigerators, 2 chest freezers, a spa that's on all the time, a full rack of servers and network gear, air compressors, etc).

I know the co-op has solar options, although the cost is higher. I guess it's for those who want the good feeling of using sustainable energy. Solar isn't off the table, but implementing it and insuring it in the event of a weather catastrophe will be a hurdle for us.

I think one of the reasons that the batteries take such a hit in either cold of winter or heat of summer is the amount of time that the car is sitting in traffic. If the average commute is only 20 miles per day, I wonder how much time that commute takes. For me, my 7 mile commute now takes anywhere from 15 to 45 minutes depending on time. If there's something going on to block the main routes, I've had that 7 miles take 90 minutes.
For me, it's different. Depending on whether I have a dog or other animals in the car, I might have the HVAC running all the time. My commutes vary; the lowest would be about 35 miles round trip if I'm going to the local lumber yard with a trailer, 65 miles round trip if it's the grocery store, but 170-180 miles round trip for Costco or other errands is pretty normal. Does the Tesla have different mileage ranges based on speed? The speed limits vary between 65-75, although I usually set cruise on the interstate around 79. I also make regular runs for livestock feed - one is only 80 miles, but I have some very steep 7-10% grades, which, in the Golf, require 3rd gear to maintain 50 with a trailer, loaded or empty. The other feed run is 380 miles round trip - empty on the way up, about 2200-2700 lbs being towed on the way back. No EV charging options are on that route (it's 100% rural).

At least in winter, with a very low traffic commute, but a short trip (about 5 miles), I see a colossal fuel economy hit on my Prius due to having to start the ICE for cabin heating.

Summer, OTOH, I don't see much of a hit unless I'm stopping every couple of miles to do something.

There'll be a degree of commonality here with EV behavior, at least...
I remember a similar hit with my Prius, but how much more of a hit with an EV? I would presume Tesla or other manufacturers' estimates are based on perfect driving conditions - flat road without a grade, no HVAC, no headlights, and an unknown speed, probably 55, but no clue.

Keep in mind that 12 cents/kWh may be your base rate. Extra fees such as delivery, distribution, transmission, local access, etc may apply. As I mentioned earlier, my base rate last month was 3.9 cents but my net cost worked out to 9.6 cents after fees & taxes. Here's my latest bill:



The poco credited $120 from the previous period and charged everything again. The energy charge for February was only $29.48 but with fees & taxes - $73.09. That disparity between what electricity costs and what we actually pay drives me nuts.

This may be the first that I've agreed with nwdiver. If you use electricity for everything, you probably are the perfect candidate for solar.
I already know I am, but like I said, it's the logistics. I'm also jealous with how cheap your electricity is.
 

AntonLargiader

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2004
Location
Charlottesville, VA
TDI
'98 Jetta, '03 Jetta wagon
99.84kWh x $0.12 = $11.98

Let's say the range is 250 miles per full charge. So $11.98 / 250 miles ...
You're quoting too low range for that battery, and no one I know pays that high an electric rate.

If EVs aren't a good match for your particular driving pattern, that's OK... your horse is dead; you can stop beating it.
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
In NJ, the total for distribution and supply for electricity is $0.165 per kwh, with the taxes included in that amount. Those taxes are added to the general fund, which is used for the roads.
 
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