The age of engine downsizing is over, says Volkswagen

2015vwgolfdiesel

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My current daily driver is a Fiat 500 with the 1.4 FIRE 16v MultiAir non-turbo engine. No rocketship (not even close!) but it gets the job done. It is overgeared in the interest of mileage. Right now, in winter conditions, it's doing a little better than 6 L/100 km.
In europe the same car had either a 1.2 FIRE 8v or the "TwinAir" 0.9 litre 2 cylinder engine. Apparently the TwinAir was the engine to get (right number of cylinders, historically correct even though it's at the wrong end of the car) but real world fuel consumption isn't any better than with the 1.2 or 1.4 MultiAir.
The FIRE series of engines is in the process of being replaced. The new choices are a 1.0 3 cylinder (replacing the TwinAir and 1.2 FIRE) or a 1.3 4 cylinder (replacing the 1.4 16v FIRE). Interestingly, the new engines only have 2 valves per cylinder and are SOHC with VVT, but no MultiAir, and have a very high compression ratio (13:1) and the cam drive is by chain rather than belt. I think someone's been doing some optimizing to get the same or better power output and economy but with fewer parts and less complexity and less maintenance. I'm totally on board with that.

Hi, GoFaster


Will you please convert that to MPG for this ol' geezer
 

atc98002

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I don't care if engine downsizing is over or not. I just want a TDI in the new Tiguan coming this fall :)
 

kjclow

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I'd like to see the 3l TDI in the Atlas.
 

kjclow

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According to yahoo yesterday, Trump is looking at rolling back the CAFE dates. Although that does not really help push the higher efficiency engines.
 

bhtooefr

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Problem with putting a 3.0 TDI in the Atlas is that it's a transverse engine, and AFAIK it won't fit. And, there's no longer a 5-cylinder TDI for automotive applications. And it's for a country that VW would rather not admit diesels exist in any more.
 

benson4349

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Still, if you had a Civic-sized time machine and could bring me a factory fresh 1988 CRX HX I could embarrass a 2017 Civic at the fuel pump. Yes, it would be slower, and yes it is much lighter, and no it does not have all the equipment the newer one has. But its tiny carburetor could use very little gasoline to get you where you needed to go. And they were actually pretty fun to drive, too!
When I was looking for a commuter, the CRX HX and a TDI were two cars at the top of my list. I just happened to find the TDI first.
 

jjblbi

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lbi, nj
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Sadly VW has elected to abandon diesel technology in the US. May eventually go Golf R or GTI w/turbo upgrade.

My kingdom for a GTD.
 

20IndigoBlue02

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Ok, close enough. Mine is a 4 door sedan.
I have a 4a-lc, or perhaps 4a-c. A sohc 8-valver.
Yep, yours will have higher compression, less emissions control garbage saddled to its carburetor, higher output, and would use less fuel. Pretty typical of the '80s era for US bound cars. We usually got the largest displacement, lowest output, thirstiest version. But ours were "cleaner" :rolleyes:

Some of our Corollas did get the optional 4A-GE engine, which was the twin-cam EFI engine (like our first gen MR2s got), but those are pretty rare. We also got the Corolla FX, which was the hatchback version, and the FX16 was Toyota's "GTI" version of the Corolla, but much tamer than the car it attempted to copy. Of course, even our GTIs got pussified by European standards. :(
my 84 Corolla had the 4A-LC, the "lean burn" carb version.

the corollas that got the 4A-GE was on the FX. The GM version, aka the Geo Prizm GSI also got the 4A-GE motor.
 

Mythdoc

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The small TSI engines don't seem to have the durability. Even after the teething pains of the earlier models, the tensioners and the oil consumption, etc, which have been improved, how many people (as a ratio to the whole) are driving around on these engines with more than 150K miles? A Diesel engine is well known to have longevity, especially when not saddled by a faulty emissions control system! :D
 

evantful

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how many people (as a ratio to the whole) are driving around on these engines with more than 150K miles? A Diesel engine is well known to have longevity, especially when not saddled by a faulty emissions control system! :D
Its hard to make that comparison. I would suspect a very high percentage of CR TDI owners, as compared to TSI owners, drive a larger amount of miles per year. With much of it being "highway miles" for many this was the reason they purchased a TDI when they had the choice, its certainly the reason I picked up one driving 24k miles a year.

So by default your going to find TDI's that have much higher mileage on them in the same time frame, and many of those miles are less demanding being highway miles.

And to be honest, comparing the first gen TSI to the first gen CR TDI from a durability/realiability stand point isn't exactly a clear win. Needless to say the CBEA and CJAA, with their time bomb HPFP, freezing intercoolers, EGR failures, etc etc were not the poster child of peace of mind driving.
 

kjclow

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When did the TSI come out? I think it was 2014, so there are probably not many 2014 cars of any flavor out there with over 150K miles on them.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
When did the TSI come out? I think it was 2014, so there are probably not many 2014 cars of any flavor out there with over 150K miles on them.

VAG's DI turbo gas engines have been around since the late '90s, we first saw them here around 2005, but we only get a very small sample of what they offer globally.

They've also had a bunch of DI non-turbo gas engines, too. Even the later VR6s are DI.
 

kjclow

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Thanks, I was thinking specifically of the TSI designation for marketing purposes.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
The Mazda and Ford DI gas engines have the same issues any of the others do: increased oil dilution and in some cases some oil consumption. I am not certain what all Mazda has done on their own since the split from Ford. The newer Focus has a laundry list of problem areas that make anything regarding engine oil pretty trivial. Sad to see those cars with so many troubles, as they are a nice car to drive.

I'd still rather drive a Volkswagen.
 

evantful

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Thanks, I was thinking specifically of the TSI designation for marketing purposes.
It came out mid way through the 2008 production run in the United States and replaced the FSI. The current gen 3 EA888 came out midway through production in 2013 for the GLI and then spread through the model line up
 

NSTDI

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My 2003 1.8T did 350,000 KM's of trouble free driving. I sold it it 2012 and the guy who has it still likes it, no engine issues. I know its not DI but very reliable and fairly good on fuel, never ever added oil between changes.

Way less complex than the TSI and the newer TDI's.
Don
 

kjclow

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It came out mid way through the 2008 production run in the United States and replaced the FSI. The current gen 3 EA888 came out midway through production in 2013 for the GLI and then spread through the model line up
Thanks for more clarification.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Thanks for more clarification.

Except that without context, it is not clear at all. :rolleyes:

If you are restricting your conversation to JUST the 2.0L DOHC turbocharged DI gasoline 4 cyl, then yes, the changeover from the good engines (like the BPY) to the crappy engines (like the CCTA) happened in mid-2008 in most models sold here. That later family of engines got some upgrades in 2013-14 range (again, depending on model) and that is what the current 1.8L turbo DI gas engine is based off of, with the 2.0L version still being used in the Tiguan, Eos, GTI/GLI, and some Audi models.
 
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20IndigoBlue02

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Except that without context, it is not clear at all. :rolleyes:

If you are restricting your conversation to JUST the 2.0L DOHC turbocharged DI gasoline 4 cyl, then yes, the changeover from the good engines (like the BPY) to the crappy engines (like the CCTA) happened in mid-2008 in most models sold here. That later family of engines got some upgrades in 2013-14 range (again, depending on model) and that is what the current 1.8L turbo DI gas engine is based off of, with the 2.0L version still being used in the Tiguan, Eos, GTI/GLI, and some Audi models.
Not sure if you can consider the BPY motor a "good engine". It has its fair share of problems, from PCV to the cam follower wear.

The Tiguan still uses the 1st gen ea888 CCTA motor. the current 1.8 TSI is based on the 3rd gen ea888 architecture, which the current 2.0 TSI's are based on, except we don't get twin-injection.

The twin-injection, will prevent the intake valve deposits, something Toyota/Lexus has been doing since about 2006, with the D4-S system.
 

20IndigoBlue02

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The small TSI engines don't seem to have the durability. Even after the teething pains of the earlier models, the tensioners and the oil consumption, etc, which have been improved, how many people (as a ratio to the whole) are driving around on these engines with more than 150K miles? A Diesel engine is well known to have longevity, especially when not saddled by a faulty emissions control system! :D
I got rid of my 08 Passat after 217,000 miles.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
Well the BPY seemed to have far less issues than the replacement. Don't see many since they were not in use for very long. But I have some customers with them that have outlasted their newer stablemates twice over already. The cracked water pump housings, blown rear main seals, stuck crankcase breathers, gunked up intakes, and timing chain problems have become a constant nuisance here. I cringe when I see a Tiguan come in, because it seems they are never here for just a normal service... it is always accompanied by a leak, a warning light on, a noise, or some other driveability problem. :(

Just this morning one of my regulars is finally giving up on his CC. It has almost hit 300k miles, and it just blew rear main #3.
 

bhtooefr

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How does this 'downsized' Mazda engine compare to the VW TSI for reliability purposes?
Worth noting that it's not downsized - they're the same displacement as the engines they replaced, and they're not turbocharged.
 

PlaneCrazy

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Gone...
I got rid of my 08 Passat after 217,000 miles.
I ran my '07 Passat wagon up to 160k km (100k miles) with no problems other than high oil consumption.

It's hard to say if the TSIs last as long as a TDI.

What I can say is that for many drivers like me in the rust belt, it's a moot point. Our '05 Passat TDI, now driven by our oldest son, has just under 300k km on it. It has the geared balance shaft drive, and original transmission and original "lifetime" fluid :eek:

The engine runs flawlessly, but the rest of the car is falling apart. The corrosion warranty expired last fall, and the left rear door is full of large holes. Plus a lot of other old car issues.

When it reaches time to do the timing belt (320k km), it will be time to get rid of it (about 3 more years at the rate my son drives it).

The car that the Passat replaced as daily driver, was a 1998 Honday Odyssey. We ran that one for 15 years and 300k km. It too had to be scrapped due to extensive corrosion, the jack punched through the frame when changing a flat. So same mileage, slightly more years. Gas vs Diesel. It's a wash, in both cases the drivetrains outlasted the rest of the car.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
I could not ever own anything I cared about with that level of salted roads. I'd probably buy a used car every few years, do as little as possible to it, and just keep turning them over.

I love the cold, but not that much. I am too much of a car guy. :(
 
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