540 Rat Real world oil testing

FXDL

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Real world oil testing, good, better and best oils to fight wear. Some 209 oils tested. Very good site with real world testing of the oils. Check this site out if one hasn't already. There is oils for gas and oils for diesel tested. I have had this site for some time and thought I would share. Like it or not the oil we might be using, may not be all that good at fighting wear in our TDI's or gassers, motorcycles etc.. Oil company's, big and small say a lot on the bottle of oil we buy, but is it really true or as good as the we are are lead to believe, in some yes and many no. Very good info as when one looking for the best protection from their oil choice. https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
 
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belome

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Oh crud, is this going to turn into an Amsoil fluffing session?
 

turbobrick240

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I had enough after the first ten pages of the guy exalting himself as the worlds preeminent tribologist, and anyone questioning his methodology or reasoning must be a moron. He strokes his own ego for pages, yet gives no information on his testing apparatus, procedures, or certifications. Eventually there's some data(that I question the accuracy of), but nothing that's going to change which oils I use.
 

MichaelB

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I had enough after the first ten pages of the guy exalting himself as the worlds preeminent tribologist, and anyone questioning his methodology or reasoning must be a moron. He strokes his own ego for pages, yet gives no information on his testing apparatus, procedures, or certifications. Eventually, there's some data(that I question the accuracy of), but nothing that's going to change which oils I use.
I read the first couple of pages and decided that this guy promotes himself to be the end all of all end alls. The evidence is all about what he believes from whatever testing methods he used which he doe not explain. and he believes he be the man and the rest of the world knows nothing. I could make up the same crap and tell you like Mr. Trump that he is a very stable genius.
 

nicklockard

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Blowhard much? He didn't even show the list he keeps crowing about. What a bunk of junk.
 

FXDL

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What can I say, I thought we might learn something from his testing. Please read only the first couple pages and one can then give their "expert opinion" as to weather he knows what he is doing, talking about as some have already done. He tests all oils the same he says, so his tests however it is he does it has some meaning, more meaning then anyone out hear on this site or for that matter any site that I have ever seen. Who cares how he tests the oils ,he tests them all the same. I don't see anyone else testing as many or even close. Maybe he is thinking he is gods gift to oil testing and as far as I can see he is. When any of you so called experts out here test oils to the extreme as he has then you can then claim to be the oil god. I don't see any of you with negative comments getting back with your 209 plus oil tests that you have done. I figured the post I put up would get all you experts back with your expert opinions, or is it Amsoil fluffing. So please all you experts out here please post your oil testing you have done and please show us how you did it, so we know you did it fairly and we can therefore believe you. So when you all test as he has then I will call you the oil God and you the experts. So much for this site as for learning, I guess it was when first started.
 
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tdiatlast

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I had enough after the first ten pages of the guy exalting himself as the worlds preeminent tribologist, and anyone questioning his methodology or reasoning must be a moron. He strokes his own ego for pages, yet gives no information on his testing apparatus, procedures, or certifications. Eventually there's some data(that I question the accuracy of), but nothing that's going to change which oils I use.
FXDL: please read the above post.
 

Windex

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I try to give anyone the benefit of the the doubt, but this page is more blatant self-promotion and puffery than anything of substance.

I'll head back over to bobistheoilguy now.
 

tadawson

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. . . Who cares how he tests the oils ,he tests them all the same. I don't see anyone else testing as many or even close. . . .
For all we know, he swallows a spoonful, and sees what change it makes to his poop . . . Sure, all tested the same, and all utterly irrelevant without disclosure of the test protocol . . .
 

James & Son

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I read his stuff 2 to 4 years ago.

In all these friction tests and wear tests( rats and others) it boils down to some variation of load speed and time and another variation you can add is initial temperature.

Its not real world because of the narrow scope of his test parameters. Basiclly testing at 135 F. and 30 seconds. I am going by memory but he did let it slip he was using 30 seconds not that that matters.

and the winner is ?

You will notice he don't like Zddp. All breakin oils are terrible in his tests for wear.

In scientific tests: zppd is high friction but low wear under moderate boundary conditions and is called an antiwear additive.

Now under certain conditions of loads and 30 second time frame maybe zppd is totally useless. Get my point.

What he may show is that some additives work very well under his tests. This is basically an antiwear additive test under specific conditions.

My brm cam and followers is wearing out due to start up wear and low rpm wear so I need a naturally high index base oil 5w-40 with acceptable amount of polymers in the 185 range with a high HTHS at 150 C., and the additive package must meet CJ4/Ck4.

You will note I am not wanting a 0w-40 because it starts out with to thin a base oil and is designed for( edit: very) cold temperatures.
 
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FXDL

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What can I say. I read everyone's post after I put the site in for one to read and maybe just maybe help them pick an oil they might want to use in what ever they have, but as the norm out here it seems, some have to find something wrong with it. You know if you all can do better at what he is doing then please do so, or if you have proof that he is wrong about his findings then prove him wrong. His testing showed ZDDP that it was not any help in stopping wear and in fact increased wear. ZDDP and there was a lot of hype about it being the greatest additive at stopping wear. He said other additives in oil help prevent wear and I believe better then ZDDP. Now if you would read all he has to say, all the pages not just 2 or some 10 pages you might learn something or not. You all giving your opinion, but his information is from his testing an oil. Now with all testing you know to be wrong please show it so we can say he has no idea what he is doing and all the experts out here can be the new oil god they seem to think they are. Testing he did at I believe 230 degs for the most part, but also at higher temps along with some testing at a low tempature of some 135 degs. If one was to read all he had to say you would, mite learn why he did and why. Now head back tobobtheoilguy as I believe he is using info from the 540 rat and posted on his site.
 
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tadawson

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Nobody said he is wrong . . .

Nobody said he is right . . .

What was said is that the test is so poorly disclosed that it is impossible to draw a valid conclusion!
 

James & Son

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The initial starting conditions and the time factor are the big thing. If he does not explain these then how can I make a proper decision if those conditions are part of my wear problem.

There are many standardized wear tests that allow any formulator to test his oil against others. This is only a starting point in oil testing.

The science of oil has been going on since the 19th century. The number of studies put out each year is mind boggling and it takes about 10 years of science allow for the next generation of oil improvements.

I have read his stuff but I learned much more from reading the science automotive of lubrication study and testing. Then I went to BITOG that have some degreed tribologists and only follow there stuff when different oils and additives in the real world are being discussed.

Rats stuff is interesting and may be usefull for( edit: classic) hotrodders. His is just another small data point as far as I am concerned when it comes to understanding real world oil conditions.
 
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tdiatlast

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Doesn't "real world" testing involve actual engine use testing, rather than lab testing? Isn't that the whole point of "real world"???
 
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turbobrick240

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FXDL, you are taking the criticism of Mr. Rat's "research" too personally. If ZDDP was such an ineffective anti wear additive, I don't see why the professional tribologists working in the industry - with real credentials, testing equipment, etc. would include it in motor oil formulations. I doubt it's all a conspiracy to enrich the zinc barons of the world. The protective film that ZDDP forms, grows exponentially with temperature and pressure- it seems Mr. Rat's testing conditions were not sufficiently harsh to give the zddp a chance to form the protective film that it does in real world usage.

Even if he was right about zddp, you have to admit that his writing style is more sociopath than scientist.
 

MichaelB

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would, mite learn why he did and why. Now head back tobobtheoilguy as I believe he is using info from the 540 rat and posted on his site.
You believe......I don't see it..........show me
 
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nicklockard

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FXDL, you are taking the criticism of Mr. Rat's "research" too personally. If ZDDP was such an ineffective anti wear additive, I don't see why the professional tribologists working in the industry - with real credentials, testing equipment, etc. would include it in motor oil formulations. I doubt it's all a conspiracy to enrich the zinc barons of the world. The protective film that ZDDP forms, grows exponentially with temperature and pressure- it seems Mr. Rat's testing conditions were not sufficiently harsh to give the zddp a chance to form the protective film that it does in real world usage.
Even if he was right about zddp, you have to admit that his writing style is more sociopath than scientist.

It's interesting that you picked up on it too. My first post said "it reads like a serial killer wrote it." which I edited to what it says now, thinking it too harsh.

But dang that affect. So righteous!
 

whitedog

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It's interesting that you picked up on it too. My first post said "it reads like a serial killer wrote it." which I edited to what it says now, thinking it too harsh.
But dang that affect. So righteous!
Dang,Nick. Now I WANT to read it.

Ok. Here I go down the rabbit hole... Wish me luck.
 

FXDL

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He has done a lot of testing on different engine oils, some 200 or more, which has taken how much of his time to do, yet all the experts out here seem to think it is BS or what have you when in fact I don't see them posting or showing any testing they have done to prove him crazy, wrong, or what ever? Each their own, for opinions. I only put this read out for to learn from or not. There is for sure some useful info in his testing. Sure seems like a lot of people out here have negative input on it, but then again it seems always the same people no matter what someone posts. It was a learning too, so to maybe help one decide what oil to use or not in whatever have they. We sure have a lot of folks out here that tune in and pick apart, have a negative comment on pretty much everything out here. Well I did learn some things from his write up, he knows more then anyone else out here about engine oils.
 
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turbobrick240

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I don't know man, the knowledgeable guys at BITOG and many other car forums aren't particularly impressed by rat540 either. And there are people here, like Tooslick, who have probably forgotten more about lubricants than rat540 will ever know. Thanks for posting up the info though.
 

MichaelB

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Location
SE Wisconsin
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Real world oil testing, good, better and best oils to fight wear. Some 209 oils tested. Very good site with real world testing of the oils. Check this site out if one hasn't already. There is oils for gas and oils for diesel tested. I have had this site for some time and thought I would share. Like it or not the oil we might be using, may not be all that good at fighting wear in our TDI's or gassers, motorcycles etc.. Oil company's, big and small say a lot on the bottle of oil we buy, but is it really true or as good as the we are are lead to believe, in some yes and many no. Very good info as when one looking for the best protection from their oil choice. https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
FXDL you believe everything you read.......try this http://xtremerevolution.net/exposting-the-flaws-in-540rats-engineering-test-data-blog/

Quote:
Originally Posted by FXDL
What can I say. Now head back tobobtheoilguy as I believe he is using info from the 540 rat and posted on his site.

I did and this is what I found https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub..._Rat_oil_tests
 
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Ol'Rattler

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FXDL,

Make an appointment with your medical provider ASAP before your mental condition gets any worse. Once you get your Meds straightened out and are rational, we will be glad to debate any subject the forum allows.

I'm offering this from personal experience. Some of the poisons (Meds) that are prescribed to the public can have nasty side effects especially if the dosing is wrong or not followed.

Peace.....
 
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FXDL

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First of all take your own meds and I can add a couple for you too. Second just because I posted for all to read and maybe learn from his testing doesn't mean I believe all he has claimed. Like the saying goes never believe what you hear and only half what you see. It was to learn from or not. One thing I have learn is the older I get the less I know and people around well I sometimes wonder.
 
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FXDL

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After reading his site over a couple of times I now do believe he has more know how about oils then I read on any forum, including here or other wise.
Seems to me people read one or two forums and they now have become experts on oils.
We are in tiled to our option's, but people condemn 540 because he does know what he's talking about and the ones that do condemn him really have no idea what they are talking about and in fact can't prove him wrong, only with their mouth is how it seems to be the norm here. He's all mouth as some say, because they have no real idea and can't prove him wrong so they have to bad mouth him.
Seems to me a lot of people out here like to bad mouth period, who ever for what ever.
I guess with all the people on different sites he use to read and as he put it, have no clue about oils so he stop reading them.
As for debating about oils keep believing what you all will and likewise so will I.
This site seems to be more and more as how much we can insult one another rather then what it was started for, so be then.
Rattler, you sure gave yourself the wright user name, you are all that
 
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turbobrick240

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If you like what 540rat has to say, by all means follow his recommendations. Just don't expect everyone who knows a thing or two about lubricants to eat it up too. I've learned that generally the folks who shout "believe me" or "trust me" the loudest and most frequently are not the most reliable sources.
 
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