Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

Are you questioning the power of an electric vehicle and its emission? Do you know that many companies have started (already made) many sports cars and bikes that are powered on electricity? Tesla launched a truck that is powered on electricity, what more do you want as a beginning??
You can visit this website here to find out how things are changing. People are buying more and more electric rides than any other rides.

Geekwake said:

Are you questioning the power of an electric vehicle and its emission? Do you know that many companies have started (already made) many sports cars and bikes that are powered on electricity? Tesla launched a truck that is powered on electricity, what more do you want as a beginning??
You can visit this website here to find out how things are changing. People are buying more and more electric rides than any other rides.

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A more realistic way to state that is that Tesla, among others, has introduced the concept of an electric truck. Although, I put the Tesla truck in the same catagory as the Honda Ridgeline. It's a fancy car with an attached bed.

As for the e-scooters, I think they have applications but would not put my grandaughter (4 and a half) on one. Her method of stopping on her current scooter is to jump off when it's going faster than she can control. She's tried the same thing on her bike and gotten a few scrapes. Makes her think the bike is not as safe. I also think the rental escooters are a blight on Charlotte. Unlike rental bikes that have to be put back in the approperiate rack to stop the charges, scotters are just dropped wherever the rider feels like. The block sidewalks, bike trails, street corners...

Ebikes are gaining popularity but I'm not ready for one yet. I have a friend with a bad back and she can't ride a regular bikes more than about 30 minutes. On her ebike, she's able to keep up with her husband for all day excursions of 40-70 miles.

When I was traveling for work I rented at least one car a week, probably 30+ weeks a year. However, what you get for rental cars from Hertz, Avis, or National isn't exactly the same as what I'd consider for personal transporatation. Back in the early 2000s I traveled to Denver every other week for about 5 years and for a while I thought Hertz was trying to see what it would take for me to refuse a car. Aerostar, Explorer, Crown Vic and others, all just to ride me back and forth to a downtown hotel and client. It was ridiculious.

Pre-Covid, I think National has the best options for cars I might actually buy or suggest to the kids.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Independent of Tesla reviews, JD Power is simply a profit seeking business that trains auto makers, dealers, and other providers to coach customers to give good reviews. Not a reliable source in my opinion, any more than Yelp is a good restaurant review resource. Or D&B is a good business research tool. For all these companies, their goals get in the way of filling their original mission. Or maybe their mission always put profit first.

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Fair enough. Ok so nobody likes JD Power. I was asking for some other options. Maybe you have to pay to see the good stuff

kjclow said:

Based on my current utility rates and usage, my roi was in the 15+ years for solar. My house is well insulated and has a newer HVAC. HVAC system was upgraded from the bare minimum that the builder put in.

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My average electrical bill is around $50 to $60/month in SE Texas so my ROI with solar panels installed on the roof of my house would be probably around 20 years at current installations costs.

tikal said:

My average electrical bill is around $50 to $60/month in SE Texas so my ROI with solar panels installed on the roof of my house would be probably around 20 years at current installations costs.

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If your bills are that low you'd only need a very small array, perhaps 2-3 kWh. i would think you could get that for $3-5K, which would put payback in the 4-5 year range. That's without carbon credits or rebates, which I'm kind of betting Texas doesn't offer.

I don't know about Texas, but then Florida power has a connection charge of about $35.00 a month for grid tie so the payback would be longer unless you go standalone with batteries etc.

I'm pretty sure disconnecting from the grid would increase the roi period. It would give 100% energy independence and encourage energy conservation to an even greater degree though.

Of course, also, disconnecting from the grid is a code violation in some places, too. (Although IIRC there is case law against that, but you'd be fighting your municipality in court if they push it.)

EV's will thus be under centralized control through our utilities and so will our ability to move about freely. They do not represent enough advantage over our current capitalized "free market" fuel supply system but have local monopolies and dependencies exist and created for electricity, also with heavy public subsidies. Sure it would be great to have an independent solar electric supply but then comes the housing market (resale, maintenance) and subcontractors/installers (sorry, the lowest form of life, ha ha) that along with new tax structure to support road construction come into the picture. We do not have a free market for electricity and will not see much environmental benefit in the long run as well as currently due to how things may work out s.a. mandatory speed limits, taxes, congestion, and cost overruns (like public transportation has become in some ways).


My $.02

Tin Man said:

EV's will thus be under centralized control through our utilities and so will our ability to move about freely. ...
My $.02

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Sorry, VeeDubTDI couldn't respond to you because he's currently driving around New England visiting Superchargers.

I'm just not following how you think utilities are somehow holding EV owners hostage? And if so, oil companies are not holding TDI drivers hostage?

-J

compu_85 said:

Sorry, VeeDubTDI couldn't respond to you because he's currently driving around New England visiting Superchargers.
I'm just not following how you think utilities are somehow holding EV owners hostage? And if so, oil companies are not holding TDI drivers hostage?
-J

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I'm just painting a worse-case scenario, which if you follow current memes seems to be a thing.

I don't relish limits on my mobility, which is why the current availability of diesel is encouraging since 18 wheelers considered "essential" will most of the time have diesel available while electricity is subject to grid rules and mishaps. I lived through the oil embargo and shortages in the 1970's as well as the recent power shutdowns of hurricanes so availability of energy is a thing to me.

I also am disappointed by current availability and cost of solar energy, and current "needs" to subsidize the production and sale of EV's making the argument for EV use somewhat flawed. Current market trends make installing personal solar panels an experience of a different kind of charging namely middle-men and real estate market forces. Future increases in electricity rates and taxes are almost guaranteed as I see it, as well as future fees and middlemen mark-ups.

Mostly a rant to make "freedom to move about" a priority. Recharging is fine if the infrastructure allows it, though, and I currently enjoy a 500+ mile comfortable driving range with my diesels.

The future of tracking your movements and at least charging you for using certain roads or entering, for example, downtown urban areas, is already here. Even if you have an old vehicle without that hardware, if you carry your phone you're already being tracked. I don't like it, but it seems to be where we're headed.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

The future of tracking your movements and at least charging you for using certain roads or entering, for example, downtown urban areas, is already here. Even if you have an old vehicle without that hardware, if you carry your phone you're already being tracked. I don't like it, but it seems to be where we're headed.

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Yes, and I choose to keep my phone on knowing it is being tracked to an extent. I don't think future EV electronics organization will allow this, including enforcement of speed limits etc. I don't like being excluded from private cars in populous crowded inner cities, but in today's Covid times I feel it is a good thing to do anyway. Congested cities excluding automotive transport will be at their peril.

Here is a lecture by Milton Friedman against so-called social do-gooders with centralized power: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=27Tf8RN3uiM, something EV Kool-Aid reminds me of....

IndigoBlueWagon said:

The future of tracking your movements and at least charging you for using certain roads or entering, for example, downtown urban areas, is already here. Even if you have an old vehicle without that hardware, if you carry your phone you're already being tracked. I don't like it, but it seems to be where we're headed.

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Most cities already have cameras set up that will scan your plate at different times and locations, especially if there are toll roads.

Most toll roads now use transponders and cameras to track use and charge customers. Massachusetts recently totally elminated toll booths on the Turnpike. Huge improvement.

When I was in college there was an urban myth about toll takers looking at the ticket time stamp when you entered the Pike and calculating whether or not you were exceeding the speed limit based on when you paid the exit toll. Just a myth. I don't think they're tracking speeds now, either.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Most toll roads now use transponders and cameras to track use and charge customers. Massachusetts recently totally elminated toll booths on the Turnpike. Huge improvement.

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I noticed this recently on a trip to Baltimore.... and while it was nice not to have to "stop", merely slow down, they didn't do anything to improve the merge area on the outlet side of the toll booth area. So what was a slow down for stopping and starting, and thus throttled the merging traffic on the other side, suddenly becomes a free for all drag race with vehicles and drivers of all kinds of abilities, and I found it to be quite unnerving. Six lanes suddenly, like within a few hundred yards, being necked back down to one or two, is not wise. They need to improve the ROADS now that they have improved the toll-taking stuff.

Massachusetts has gantries to read transponders or photo plates on the Pike itself, no more booth areas to drive through. They reconfigured all the on and off ramps so the're like non-toll roads. Much better.

Apparently MA's agreement with states to provide addresses to send bills to drivers without transponders are limited. Since we have a lot of students here (or at least we used to) some know whether or not their state has an agreement and if not, they get to ride toll-free.

My favorite was the entrance to the Sumner Tunnel, which was pretty much the only way to get to downtown Boston (and for me, home) from Logan airport before the big dig. Eight toll booths going to 2 lanes in a short disntance, and lots of traffic. I believe that's why we have two rules for driving in MA, "wheel well ahead wins," and "don't make eye contact."

Sun Pass in Florida has full speed gantries on some sections, and most all entry/exit points have electronic pass options. Also some entry/exits have been Sun Pass only since built. Add to that they also have an option of lic plate only toll collection, but it adds a fee for the service.

Jason

I recall the I-90/I-290 interchange in MA was a total mess with a toll booth in it, and the last time I drove it, IIRC, it might've been even worse without the toll booth, due to everyone remaining at some amount of speed...

There's no need to be frightened by solar photovoltaics, EVs, and renewable energy and sustainable technologies as a whole. The vast majority of the populace and electorate see those as good and necessary things. Which is good. Inventing boogeymen to suit ones strange personal agenda is about as productive as hunting for sasquatch- it won't be successful, and just makes the sasquatch hunters look silly.

There's at least one "toll road" in the area near Virginia Beach VA that is unmarked and looks for transponders. Out-of-state drivers get a letter in the mail billing them for the privilege. Illegal probably, but heck, if they can ban radar detectors, why not trample on other rights.


"Frightened" is not a word to describe the up-and-coming surveillance state. Orwellian is the correct word.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

If your bills are that low you'd only need a very small array, perhaps 2-3 kWh. i would think you could get that for $3-5K, which would put payback in the 4-5 year range. That's without carbon credits or rebates, which I'm kind of betting Texas doesn't offer.

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Well my electric bills are low because of a combination of factors: relatively low electricity cost (around 8.3 cents per Kwh on average), we have a lot of items running on natural gas (stove, water heater, heater), we have a pretty decent new AC system with a SEER of around 17.5 and we have the good double pane Argon filled windows. So in a sense we have already invested in efficiency for the time being. Perhaps in a few years we will re-consider solar panels on the roof of the house.

I'm pretty convinced that IT professionals comprise the most advanced support of both EV's and Autonomous driving. I found an interesting rebuttal of this kind of belief here: https://www.hagerty.com/media/opini...-and-how-youre-going-to-pay-the-price-for-it/ Interesting.

That's an interesting opinion piece. Of course he's dead wrong. Try asking a brilliant Stanford graduate expert in neural networks and machine learning and you'll get a different opinion. I happen to know one who works for IBM and has done groundbreaking work in speech recognition. He thinks fully autonomous, level 5 self driving cars will be sharing the road by the end of the decade. To be sure, it's an incredibly complex task, with a mind boggling number of edge cases that need to be mastered first, but it will happen.

Those Hagerty youtube vids where the guy does engine rebuilds in time lapse are really great. I also really enjoy the guy that drives around in his old woody station wagon visiting junkyards, barns, and garages to find cool old cars and trucks. Barnfinds I believe it's called. Very cool.

tikal said:

Well my electric bills are low because of a combination of factors: relatively low electricity cost (around 8.3 cents per Kwh on average), we have a lot of items running on natural gas (stove, water heater, heater), we have a pretty decent new AC system with a SEER of around 17.5 and we have the good double pane Argon filled windows. So in a sense we have already invested in efficiency for the time being. Perhaps in a few years we will re-consider solar panels on the roof of the house.

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Maybe it isn't just about efficiency. I was going to write that my house isn't very efficient, but maybe it's not so bad. Electric rates here are nearly 3x yours, and my bills prior to solar ran $100-125 in winter, around twice that in summer because of A/C and pool pump. I have a 6 kW system that pretty much zeros those bills out. So maybe you'd need something similar. At the power rates you're paying, I don't think I'd bother either.

Tin Man said:

I'm pretty convinced that IT professionals comprise the most advanced support of both EV's and Autonomous driving.

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What exactly is "the most advanced support"? My in-laws are technological zeroes and people I've met on the streets are into the EV-ness of their cars but pretty uninterested in the geeky details.

I found an interesting rebuttal of this kind of belief here: https://www.hagerty.com/media/opini...-and-how-youre-going-to-pay-the-price-for-it/ Interesting.

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That is not a compelling article at all. It's kind of a skim across the top of the subject, with some poor logic applied to the selected bits of "info."

AntonLargiader said:

What exactly is "the most advanced support"? My in-laws are technological zeroes and people I've met on the streets are into the EV-ness of their cars but pretty uninterested in the geeky details.

That is not a compelling article at all. It's kind of a skim across the top of the subject, with some poor logic applied to the selected bits of "info."

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Opinion is opinion. IT professionals seem to be the most supportive of EV's which I guess is predictable but not necessarily true for the rest of us. Naive in-laws following the EV trend is also not a surprise.