ALH with 3 turbos !

dvst8r · Apr 28, 2010

Looks like you got the triples backwards. Should have a single secondary, with twin parallel primaries. As now you have a secondary that is ruffly as big as a GT2859 ~ 30lbs/min feeding a Turbo that only moves ~50lbs/min and has a super tight exhaust housing at that.

From what I see is that it is going to be a laggy setup, that doesn't have a ton of top end potential. Now let me quantify that by saying, last I checked I can only recall a handful of people even being able to use that 30lbs/min that the secondary provides.

In short I think your secondary is too big, and too close in size to your primary. An HE351VE would have been a better choice in primary, or an HX40-16, or an H2E ect... However all of those setups are for 330whp+ on just #2.

There is a very good reason to run triples other then packaging and cost, but this setup does not allow you to benefit from it.

I am not going to spoon feed anyone one on this, but the secondary sizing and idea is good for something.

gsx700whp · Apr 28, 2010

as for the intercooler here are some pics in my photos of the one I am about to put on .... IF THIS IS NOT BIG ENOUGH AND STRONG ENOUGH I QUIT !!!!!! and yes its going to fit just like the turbos did that everyone said wouldnt . where is the spirit of faith ? slowly but surely I have been raising boost to the point that im having to put turnbuckles on all the boost lines that already have T-bolt clamps that wont hold the pipes together . and its doing that at around 2500RPM with EGT's around 550 pre turbo pyro for all the non believers ....

no plastic anywhere except the stock IC tanks , the intake is in the pics , thats why I put the IC in the pics so you could kinda follow the plumbing , all 23.5ft of it

gsx700whp · Apr 28, 2010

as a matter of fact I also build turbojet engines ! you can see my latest at youtube under the title

T18 A83

dont forget the space between the 8 and the A

that thing feels like its gona turn my garage inside out when its running !
the comp inducer is 4.25in dia

and thumbs up to this guy . I saw his car right after he got it done , extremely nice work , one of the best installs I have seen. and the fact that he did it to a brand new car with a 2 yr inspection sticker was a nice touch....

glitdi said:
While you're at it!
Why don't you put one of these in!
contact this guy he should be able to help you with the install and tuning.
http://www.ronpatrickstuff.com/

gsx700whp · Apr 28, 2010

I guess you cant tell how its plumbed in the pics , believe me its right . I do however agree with you on the later model holset but I am working on a non existant budget and these are the ones I had laying around I have less than $xxxxxin this whole project including the car -labor that I have in it , which I normally charge $50/hr , I dare not ring up my time on it LOL
I am not running alcohol for my main fuel and Im not pulling a sled (which I have done) This set up is right for what im doing , I use to R&D for a living , but I am always open to hear what anyone has to say , because no one knows everything , we all know just a little bit about a little bit

dvst8r said:
Looks like you got the triples backwards. Should have a single secondary, with twin parallel primaries. As now you have a secondary that is ruffly as big as a GT2859 ~ 30lbs/min feeding a Turbo that only moves ~50lbs/min and has a super tight exhaust housing at that.

From what I see is that it is going to be a laggy setup, that doesn't have a ton of top end potential. Now let me quantify that by saying, last I checked I can only recall a handful of people even being able to use that 30lbs/min that the secondary provides.

In short I think your secondary is too big, and too close in size to your primary. An HE351VE would have been a better choice in primary, or an HX40-16, or an H2E ect... However all of those setups are for 330whp+ on just #2.

There is a very good reason to run triples other then packaging and cost, but this setup does not allow you to benefit from it.

I am not going to spoon feed anyone one on this, but the secondary sizing and idea is good for something.

Got Bearings? · Apr 28, 2010

manual_tranny said:
Sorry, didn't mean to pick on the intercooler.... I just can't believe how complicated this setup is... If this is a daily driver, I am even more confused. This setup is unlikely to be reliable.
Why not sell your 3 turbos and buy one of these?
http://tdtuning.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=DCTurbosystem1

Sometimes, people like to do something different.... JUST BECAUSE! Are there better ways to do it? Sure... but if you have the ability to do something different, why not?

Case in point: 8 turbos on a 57 Chevy. Practical? No. Cool? YUP!

http://www.lateral-g.org/sandlin/

dvst8r · Apr 28, 2010

gsx700whp said:
I guess you cant tell how its plumbed in the pics , believe me its right . I do however agree with you on the later model holset but I am working on a non existant budget and these are the ones I had laying around I have less than $2500 in this whole project including the car -labor that I have in it , which I normally charge $50/hr , I dare not ring up my time on it LOL

I build on average 3 sets of twins / triples a month. Here is a set I just finished that Has a GT3782R ball bearing turbo over a GT4202R ball bearing turbo with a tial V-band exhaust housing. It supports 700hp on #2 and lights sooner then stock and sees 50psi+ by 2000rpm. That is the better part of $4000 in just turbo's before fittings, piping, powder coating, welding, installing ect... You have to have a bit of an idea and a reputation of what you are doing before someone just forks over the better part of $10K

(ignore the mess of clamps on the cold pipe to the intercooler, it was just after midnight at that point, and obviously the parts store was closed. We fabbed up something more suitable in the morning, just wanted to hear it run that night.

Your VNT-15's are plumbed in parallel which in essence make them a big single, and are being sequenced with the HY35. The way you have them plumed will work, but it is not the way to make the best use of triples.
Secondaries are small charges to begin with and as such don't really suffer in the inertia aspect of what makes triples great.

Chunkerz · Apr 28, 2010

Damn, in this picture you're standing on a tire. That's some good balance you have, especially in boots!

oldpoopie · Apr 28, 2010

LOL. Looks like a forklift tire or the like. Probably stil attached to the vechicle.

TDIJetta99 · Apr 28, 2010

I'm going to take a guess at that tire is attached to something, LOL... If not, then hat's off to you and your balance..

manual_tranny · Apr 28, 2010

Got Bearings? said:
Sometimes, people like to do something different.... JUST BECAUSE! Are there better ways to do it? Sure... but if you have the ability to do something different, why not?
Case in point: 8 turbos on a 57 Chevy. Practical? No. Cool? YUP!
http://www.lateral-g.org/sandlin/

Point = Taken. I do not argue 3 turbos on an ALH is uncool. It's amazing!! My gut reaction, however, is..

I hope he's got a good clutch!

FlashT · Apr 28, 2010

Re: ALH with 3 turbos!

Originally Posted by gsx700whp:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.ph...65130&cat=4815

Well, I guess seeing is believing...and if you can fit all that under the hood of a beetle...Houdini would be proud.

A Dyno would be totally awsome - once you put it all back in there.

Originally Posted by manual tranny:
Hey, a fellow climber! I read a lot of your link, very cool!

"There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games" Fantastic.

Sorry for thread hijack. Oh wait, three turbos and a stock intercooler. I'm not that sorry.

I'm gald you like it. That is my favorite quote by Hemingway, and one that I feel is very true.

And while I enjoy climbing, I have yet to climb any real mountains. I am pretty much limited to whatever is available in Utah, Texas, or Arizona, since I have family there.

All the Best

gsx700whp · Apr 28, 2010

now thats sweet !

Got Bearings? said:
Sometimes, people like to do something different.... JUST BECAUSE! Are there better ways to do it? Sure... but if you have the ability to do something different, why not?

Case in point: 8 turbos on a 57 Chevy. Practical? No. Cool? YUP!

http://www.lateral-g.org/sandlin/

gsx700whp · Apr 28, 2010

I have 2 of those I have recently built for dodge owners too, shall I post the pics too ? dont get me wrong im not trying to compete or be a smart ass (well maybe a little) but the point is no one has done it to a tdi beetle before me and this thing is a madman right out of the hole ! its making 32psi by 2500 now and still have not cut it loose to see what it will really do. this little thing is really supprising me at this point. and yes I DO HAVE THE PAPERS IN THE MAIL ON MY SET UP !!! since your a fabricator you know what I mean by that (not a threat) just sayn you have your deal , let me have mine

oh and I am about to do another deal on a QSB thats different would be willing to discuss the details with you at my yahoo email its the same as my user name here . I have a long history with the B series engines , use to rebuild them all the time and thats how I got hooked up with ole' Doc...

dvst8r said:
I build on average 3 sets of twins / triples a month. Here is a set I just finished that Has a GT3782R ball bearing turbo over a GT4202R ball bearing turbo with a tial V-band exhaust housing. It supports 700hp on #2 and lights sooner then stock and sees 50psi+ by 2000rpm. That is the better part of $4000 in just turbo's before fittings, piping, powder coating, welding, installing ect... You have to have a bit of an idea and a reputation of what you are doing before someone just forks over the better part of $10K

(ignore the mess of clamps on the cold pipe to the intercooler, it was just after midnight at that point, and obviously the parts store was closed. We fabbed up something more suitable in the morning, just wanted to hear it run that night.

Your VNT-15's are plumbed in parallel which in essence make them a big single, and are being sequenced with the HY35. The way you have them plumed will work, but it is not the way to make the best use of triples.
Secondaries are small charges to begin with and as such don't really suffer in the inertia aspect of what makes triples great.

gsx700whp · Apr 28, 2010

just got off the phone with my boy over at Dr. Performance and set up for dyno pulls in the next few days , I just hope I dont explode the whole damn car whilst standing still ! just for grin's whats the most HP out of an ALH that we know of to date ? and what is the breaking HP for stock trans and engine internals ? will really appreciate this info so I dont go too far . I have only had this thing for 6 months, have another engine that suffered timing issues set aside to build but dont want to have to start on that like in the next couple days LOL

n1das · Apr 28, 2010

Stealth TDI said:
The timing belt replacement just went from medium-difficulty to "***!"

Drop the engine w/tranny attached out of the car to take enough stuff off to get at the TB.

Growler · Apr 29, 2010

I still would like to see this stuffed into the beetle..

Color me impressed. and videos of it on the Dyno would be AWESOME.

TDIJetta99 · Apr 29, 2010

gsx700whp said:
just got off the phone with my boy over at Dr. Performance and set up for dyno pulls in the next few days , I just hope I dont explode the whole damn car whilst standing still ! just for grin's whats the most HP out of an ALH that we know of to date ? and what is the breaking HP for stock trans and engine internals ? will really appreciate this info so I dont go too far . I have only had this thing for 6 months, have another engine that suffered timing issues set aside to build but dont want to have to start on that like in the next couple days LOL

Well, the head likes to lift around the 200whp mark, Arp makes some better studs but they just came out a week or so ago so not a whole lot of people are running them yet.. and there are a few guys here making up around 250Whp on daily drivers.. Mine put down just under 200whp, and 325 ft-lbs with 28psi on a fairly small single turbo.. The engine has 237,000 miles on it..

The stock connecting rods aren't happy with up over 350ft/lbs, or up over 6000rpm..

The trans will hold up OK as long as you keep from getting a lot of wheelspin... The stock clutch will slip with the stock turbo and only nozzles/18psi tune...

manual_tranny · Apr 29, 2010

Scott Dewitt has mentioned in other threads that 3rd gear is a weak link in our transmissions.... just FYI. 1, 2, 4, and 5 are not the usual failure point. Scott is also working on making a 5-speed with wider/stronger gears, so if you start running 250HP or more, you are going to want to talk to him sooner or later. (Eventually, if you're actually using the 400ft/lbs+ you're almost definitely going to shred a gear)

Also, with your power you may consider a swap to the european 6-speed:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=257533

The strongest clutch I am aware of is here:

http://shopping.boraparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_26_33_51&products_id=223
(you'll need it very soon if this tri-turbo works)

Take a look at this thread, Scott explains things a bit:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=266693&page=18

gte824j · Apr 29, 2010

newb time

Okay Guys. I've been looking at the pics and reading this thread all morning. I took the liberty to make a diagram as I understand the piping.

Please look over the following diagram and tell me if I got the piping correct. If its wrong, let me know and I'll re-do the piping.

I am absolutely enthralled by this project! This guy is insane! Awesome work man.

Scott_DeWitt · Apr 29, 2010

manual_tranny said:
The strongest clutch I am aware of is here:

http://shopping.boraparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_26_33_51&products_id=223

SouthBend offers a clutch in the 650 ft/lbs range for the 5 speed, and 850+ for the 6 speed.

manual_tranny · Apr 29, 2010

Scott_DeWitt said:
SouthBend offers a clutch in the 650 ft/lbs range for the 5 speed, and 850+ for the 6 speed.

Wow. Do they come with a steroid shot for your left leg?

gsx700whp · Apr 29, 2010

yes this is the way its plumbed . thank you for taking the time to draw it up and post it .

Cheers

Charlie

gte824j said:
Okay Guys. I've been looking at the pics and reading this thread all morning. I took the liberty to make a diagram as I understand the piping.

Please look over the following diagram and tell me if I got the piping correct. If its wrong, let me know and I'll re-do the piping.

I am absolutely enthralled by this project! This guy is insane! Awesome work man.

gsx700whp · Apr 29, 2010

pattens pending ! If you guys like this and it proves its self I will jig up and build an all tig welded bolt on kit so it will be available to all at a reasonable price . Its up to the club so if you want it (granted it is what I say it is) then let me know and Ill go into production ASAP. and right now Im thinking somewhere around the 6-7000dollar range but thats not set in stone. Im not asking you to commit to buy it , just need to know if it will be worth my while to do this on a large scale. I am putting a pic in my pics of a "wedding band weld" of mine because the welds on my system suck , its hard to make a prototype look good LOL

Whitbread · Apr 29, 2010

manual_tranny said:
Wow. Do they come with a steroid shot for your left leg?

That's why I went for a twin disc setup. With a 1650lb pressure plate (the lightest option, almost exactly stock tdi pressure), holds 650+. With a 2450lb (stiffest) it'll hold 950+. Pull out 5 screws and you can change the diaphragm spring at home

.

Two big thumbs up for a crazy budget build. It has to sound like a jet aircraft under boost haha.

Rub87 · Apr 29, 2010

I do kind of like the idea as it probaly spell the need for a HP turbine bypass valve unlike the TDIMeister setup..

if you have a good LP turbo which can flow the airmass at the PR needed on itself around max power you're better off with the HP bypass, if you have a less good LP turbo you're better off also using the HP one(s) to assist at highrpm/load

vindaloo · Apr 29, 2010

Potential problems with the paired turbos in that one may dominate the other.

There have been some posts over on NASIOC trying twins which didn't work out too well. However, being on a diesel with no throttle plate to interupt things, maybe it'll work.

Are the exhausts from the HP units kept separate througha divided exhaust housing on the LP unit?

J

gsx700whp · Apr 29, 2010

pics of it in the car being uploaded now !

gsx700whp · Apr 29, 2010

please keep in mind with the pics that this is still being developed and is not what a sale product would look like . I will keep ya posted with dyno results , and put vids on youtube as things develop !

Scott_DeWitt · Apr 29, 2010

manual_tranny said:
Wow. Do they come with a steroid shot for your left leg?

Just remember to switch your clutching leg, it is quite a workout!

Got Bearings? · Apr 29, 2010

manual_tranny said:
Wow. Do they come with a steroid shot for your left leg?

Scott_DeWitt said:
Just remember to switch your clutching leg, it is quite a workout!

Pussies!!!

My old daily driver has one of these clutches - holds up to 1,200 HP. Drove it for years in LA traffic and all...
http://www.mcleodracing.com/products/St.Twin.Diaph+Steel+Flywheel.mcl

ALH with 3 turbos !

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