Does anyone have any clues for me?

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
Hello All!

It's my first post here since I've joined, and I have to just say how much I appreciate the forums here. Invaluable heaps of knowledge. This forum pushed me over the fence and decide to purchase an 03 Silver GLS TDI Jetta Wagon 01M ALH (for now); what a great car! I've been doing all sorts of normal maintenance to it, air filters, snow screen cleaned, tire pressure @ 40 PSI all around, head lights replaced, all glow plugs replaced, hammer modded and I am about to change the oil and replace the timing belt (I have all the tools and feel confident after reading the MkIV timing belt change PDF twice).

What I have been searching this forum to resolve is my issue starting. After I replaced the glow plugs, I was having great starts while it was cold out. One, maybe two seconds of cranking and it was off and running. Since it has gotten warm out, I have been experiencing longer starts, cranking for up to five seconds or sometimes more before ignition.

Now I have tried to search and get an answer, and I have found this _very_ long thread on warm start issues:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=134622

I have read the initial 60 or so posts and the last 50 or so posts of this thread, I hope that I do not need to get a Malone tune for this car to redo the temperature-mapping-fuel-injection relationship... I don't believe I should need to because of the fact that I have an 03 and supposedly the hot-start map has been fixed in the cars that year.

I have pulled the starter and lubricated all the internals, reinstalled and the engine now turns over at almost 400 RPM while cranking. I also have a new battery, a group 94R that does a great job of turning the starter even when its cold.

I have replaced the 109 relay in hopes that this was some sort of failing relay issue, to no avail. The hard start persists.

I have also bled the fuel system with a Mitvac type of vacuum pump, and loosened the nuts where the injector lines meet the injectors while starting to try and evacuate any air from those lines.

I have (hopefully) ruled out an alternator issue, I see 14.2 - 14.35 volts across the battery terminals regardless of RPM. The generator light comes on when I turn the key and goes out after starting the engine.

I have no Check Engine Light and i can see no codes with a third party cable and VCDS Lite.

VCDS Lite reported 315-360 RPM while cranking before start.

I have disconnected the MAF and it makes no difference - although something to note here would be that in VCDS Lite I see a pretty good difference in requested MAF and and Actual MAF, with the Actual being ~60 higher than Requested at idle, once the car is running.

EGR looks clean, no sooty build up, although it is oily on the outside.

Could poor compression cause these starting issues?

I am almost at a loss here but have a few ideas I would like to put forth so that the more knowledgeable minds here may pick them apart or point me in the right direction...

I know I have to do an oil change, and I will have to change the timing belt in the next thousand miles or so. I also know that my thermostat needs to be replaced, dash reads 190 F after half an hour of zippy driving and a meat thermometer in the G12 reservoir tank shows 178 - 180 F

I also have to tackle the problem of my radiator fans not turning, could that be related?

I also have a small hole in the exhaust pipe about 3 feet after the catalytic converter, could this be causing the starting problem?

I jumpered 12v to the fuel cutoff solenoid and it immediately clicked.

I also just replaced the three gaskets on the injection pump, the two gaskets on the Quantity Adjuster and the one round gasket on the head unit where the fuel lines come out. Interestingly, after putting everything back together, the car fired right up. not even a whole second of cranking. It promptly decided to run away and I had to kill the engine and take the IP apart and make sure the guide post was correctly seated in the quantity adjuster sliding washer bit. After correcting that, the car started perfectly and idled find, did the hammer mod trick to get the IQ right at 3. After shutting the car off and waiting a while, it took a few seconds of cranking to start. It has taken increasingly longer to start since then, until today I had a no start situation. I tried to prime the IP and get it started to no avail. after much fiddling around with the IP, bleeding the system, priming the IP and bleeding the lines from the IP to the injectors I stil have a no start situation.

I pulled the fuel sending unit and it was coated with junk in the bottom. I thoroughly cleaned it and inspected the fuel sending column. There was no junk in there and i can pull fuel to the filter with < 3 in/hg vacuum. I can pull fuel through the filter with < 3 in/hg vacuum. I decided to not drill out the fuel sending unit until I asked for advice here.

Additionally, I noticed my glow plugs are not getting 12 V when the glow plug light comes on. It has been fairly warm out, 55-60 F, so I do not think that they should need to come on. I have, however, disconnected the coolant temperature sensor and still do not get 12v at the harness or the connector in the electrical column. I have accidentally started the car with the glow plug circuit disconnected, I don't believe that is the root of the issue, but this whole thing has been driving me crazy. I do not have a tool to pull the wipers so I can't quite get to the relay yet. I am planning on inspecting the wires going to the relay and checking the wires going to the ECU while I am in there.

Any help would be greatly appreciated; especially if you have read this whole long winded post. If I can't get this sorted out myself I feel I should take the car to Ed Karpinsky in Syracuse NY from the Trusted Mechanics list. Any suggestions are greatly welcomed.


Thanks All,

Will,
Rochester, NY
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
If the coolant temp sensor is black, replace it. I'm not sure that it would effect hard starting, but if it's black, throw it back.

Don't worry about tuning for the warm hard start.
 

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
Coolant temp sensor was green but throwing codes occasionally, replaced it with a new OEM green one, no CTS codes since.
 

slamhouse

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2011
Location
Stanwood, WA
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI SE
If you cycle the key(on for 10 seconds, off, on for 5 seconds then start) does it still take extended cranking? any smoke from the tailpipe while cranking?
 

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
Yes, I've cycled the key in and off in a number of different patterns, nothing gives me a quick start. I do eventually see white smoke after some cranking, never black smoke. I'm thinking about changing my oil to see if that improves the crank time. Either delvac-1 or amsoil, I'm undecided.
 

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
Additionally, the hard start eventually gets longer and longer on the crank times, until it turns into a no start situation. The car is currently in a no start situation,.with the battery out and on the charger, trickle charge overnight. It was just over 50% when I put it on the charger.

Anti shudder valve has never been an issue on the car
 

snakeye

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Location
Montreal, Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta and Wagon, GLS 5sp
Billshire sorry if I missed it in your post, but is your car hard to start only when it's been sitting a while? What happens if you turn the engine off and start it right back up? If it fires right up, chances are air is getting into your fuel lines while your car is sitting. If I were you I would change the fuel filter and the o-rings at the t-fitting. Do you see any bubbles in the fuel line leading to the IP?
 

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
The issue persists even if I get it running, turn it off and then back on. I do not have a clear line in between my filter and pump, probably the previous owner's doing. I'm going to replace the lines with clear line soon as well. That and the vacuum lines I'll need to replace, they look shoddy and the car is at 199K miles
 

LLJ85

Active member
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Location
Texas
TDI
2001 Jetta 5-spd
You may want to remove the bottom of the steering column and check the ignition switch. The ignition switch consists of a mechanical (metal) half and an electrical (plastic) half. On my 01 the plastic part where they joined was worn and the switch was not turning completely. When compared to a new switch the wear was obvious. I replaces the electrical side of the switch and have not had a problem since. On the ignition switch there is a set screw under some red paint that has to be loosen to seperate the two halves. Hope this helps.
 

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
I have checked the timing as best as I could without a full version of VCDS. I have tried both advancing and retarting the timing a little bit with no difference in starting. I will check on the ignition switch when I get out of work and get home, thanks.
 

kiva822

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Location
Chico, CA
TDI
'03 Wagon
I have checked the timing as best as I could without a full version of VCDS. I have tried both advancing and retarting the timing a little bit with no difference in starting. I will check on the ignition switch when I get out of work and get home, thanks.
this may have nothing to do with the original problem, but you advanced and retarded the timing without checking where you ended up via VCDS? I don't know what VCDS lite can do..

just mentioning it because a fraction of pump movement can throw the whole thing off...
 

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
As per one of the maintenance articles elsewhere on tdiclub.com:

If you don't have the factory service manual, select "Measuring Blocks", and go to group 4. Do NOT use "basic settings" for this method. The displays show the requested injection timing, the actual measured injection timing, and the duty cycle of the advance solenoid. At warm idle in neutral, requested timing should be between 0.4 and 2.0 degrees BTDC. If the actual timing is not more than roughly 3.0 degrees BTDC, and the duty cycle of the advance solenoid is not more than 10%, the timing is good ... don't do anything further. If actual timing is more than 3.0 degrees BTDC, you need to make a mechanical "retard" adjustment. If the duty cycle is more than 10%, you need to make a mechanical "advance" adjustment.

I did mark where the pulley was initially and I've put it back to where it was initially as close as possible. For reference, I moved the bolts about 1mm in either direction before putting it back to where it was originally.
 

kiva822

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Location
Chico, CA
TDI
'03 Wagon
ok, you definitely have more skills than I, but perhaps you should try and put the car at TDC and pin the pump to be sure? However, the fact that it worked fine and then didn't I think would rule out static timing.

When you said 'mark pulley'...what do you mean?

if you want, feel free to ignore my comments. I'm certainly learning from this thread rather than dishing out the advice..

Although I, personally, like detailed problem descriptions like yours, you may want to provide a bullet summary before your explanation. I found that when I posted longer questions, I got less of a response. When I posted short and to-the-point questions, more responses. Human nature, I guess..path of least resistance.

I now like to do both. I start with brief bullets summarizing the problems and essential info and primary questions, then tell the reader to read on for more info, if desired.

looking forward to you solving this issue...
 

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
When I said I marked the pulley, I made a mark with an industrial sharpie where the three bolts are positioned on the face of the pulley so that I could move them back to where they started if I didn't correct the issue by playing with the timing. Thanks for the tip, I'll work on a bulleted list when I get out of work (and finish messing with the car)
 

kiva822

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Location
Chico, CA
TDI
'03 Wagon
hmm....my guess is that's fine, but others can confirm. If block 4 is as you describe.

I am also wondering about air in the IP/fuel as it kind of sounds like that. A leaking injector, maybe? (seriously, my skills are far below yours...I'm just reaching...)
 

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
Hmm. A leaky injector could be the cause of the trouble. The PO told me he had the injectors serviced, it's possible the crush washers were reused. Also, I doubt your skills are far below mine, we're all TDIers here. Thanks much for the input and I'll update when I'm done working on things tonight.
 

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
Summary of the Issue:

Issue:

Car will not start
Initially was starting hard, now will not start.

Checked:

Coolant Temperature Sensor - was green - replaced with green OEM CTS
N109 - was gray - replaced with another gray N109
IP Timing - Tried advancing and retarding, made no difference. Set timing back to where it was initially.
IP Seals - Suspected a leak, replaced QA seals and Head seal.
Primed Fuel Filter and IP; Cracked nuts at injectors & cranked to bleed lines.
Re & Re'd the starter.
Charged Battery
Checked alternator - when running is 14.3 volts regardless of RPM
Checked MAF via VCDS - numbers are good
Tried unplugging MAF and driving - super sluggish with MAF unplugged
EGR Clean, Anti Shudder Valve never sticks.
Fuel Shutoff Solenoid clicks when it gets 12v jumpered to it.
All fuses are good
Ignition Switch seems good

Could be a problem:

Glow plug relay may be shot, didn't get 12v to the lines with CTS unplugged. (it's 65-70 F here)
Have to check cylinder compression
PO had injectors serviced, may not have replaced the crush washers.
Oil change and Timing Belt is due for change in <1000 miles

Known Issues (might be playing into this?)

There is a 1/4" hole in the exhaust pipe a few feet behind the Catalytic Converter, have to fix
Radiator Fans do not spin, have to fix this as well


Next steps I'm going to take:
Temporarily repair hole in the exhaust until I can replace the pipe,
Pull the QA off the IP and make sure everything looks fine inside there.
Cylinder Compression Test
Replace Glow Plug Relay
?

I think this is up to date and accurate; any help with this will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Will
 

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
Thanks diseldorf, I'll probably have to invest in the full version of vcds to check my timing thoroughly.

I did a compression test today, cylinders 1-4 - 500 465 480 500

Pretty good for 200K miles I think.
 

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
Kiva, I have not done that but I may try before investing in vcds. Not that I don't want vcds, because I do, I just don't have the money right now. Sunday is supposed to be nice, I may do that procedure then. All I have done with my timing so far is advance and retard it a little bit at the IP cam, before putting it back to where it started. Thanks all.
 

WE7X

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2006
Location
Issaquah, WA
TDI
99.5 Jetta and '81 NA diesel rabbit
startng issues

FWIW:
I don't have a lot of experiance with this sort of thing, but on my 1999.5 MK4, I had replaced a failed starter with a used one that I had from a '96 MK3 motor. Everything fit ok and seemed to work fine, but some months later I started having hard warm starting issues, which coincided with an injection pump rebuild.
I suspected the rebuilt injection pump was bad, because of other issues that developed at the same time, so the big name injection shop in Portland Oregon warranteed the pump and labor. They were great to work with.
All the other symptoms went away, except the hard warm starting.
Finally we found the starter was not the correct one for the TDI w/MT.
It was from an earlier automatic, and was found to be cranking a bit too slow when warm.
Replacing the starter with the correct one solved that problem immediately.
 

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
Update - Put the engine to TDC - Locked the cam - IP was off, loosened the bolts on the pulley, rotated and pinned the pump and tightened the bolts back to 18 ft/lbs. Attempted to start and still no firing after 3 10 second cranks. Did not get any white smoke out of the exhaust. IP bolts did not slip.

WE7X - I do not believe the starter is incorrect, it is the original that came with the car according to PO and from what I could tell when I pulled it, that was indeed the case. I lubricated the main shaft/electric motor with some white lithium grease and then used some bearing grease on the gears that the main shaft turns. Once reinstalled the starter turned the engine over at almost 400 RPM. Seemed to work well but did not correct the hard start issue. I followed Wingnut's post on how to re & re the starter:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=844411

Not really suspecting IP not delivering fuel because I get fuel spurting at the injectors when I crack them, although I will probably pull the IP apart sometime tonight and inspect it as well as I can. Could there be exhaust blockage at the Cat? I will get under the car to inspect the exhaust this weekend. Any thoughts on exhaust blockage? What goes in must come out right? Again, thanks all. I appreciate the help.
 

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
Another Update -

I jacked the car up and got underneath to inspect things, everything seemed well, except I noticed that the catalytic converter body seemed to be very rusty with the surrounding pipes fairly new looking. Also it seems like the pipe coming off the cat that meets the pipe that goes to the muffler was joined with something that didn't look factory. I may look at replacing the cat portion of the exhaust soon.

After removing the QA from the IP, taking a lot of pictures and double checking everything was good inside, I put everything back together and was able to start the car. The engine slowly climbed in RPM's till I killed it at about 2000 RPM. It was putting out LOTS of white smoke, probably put a lot of fuel into the cylinders with all the cranking and no starts. I adjusted the QA and attempted to start the car again but the starter was not turning over quick enough to start the car, maybe 200 RPM or less. I pulled the QA off to make sure I had it positioned correctly and had the pin of the control motor in the control collar; seemed to be okay. Tried to start again and was turning over even more slowly. Pulled the battery and I'm charging it again. I may just pick up a new starter this weekend. Thanks for all the suggestions and I'll keep you all updated.
 

Billshire

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2003 VW Jetta TDI GLS Wagon autotragic
A Third Update -

This problem is getting unbearably frustrating. With a fully charged battery, the car sis not start.

I removed the QA from the IP, spilled some fuel into the catch rags, reinserted and tried to start the car.
Fired first time, maybe two revolutions of the engine. Idled high - about 1150 rpm.

Killed the engine and moved the QA squarely to the marks I left with a scratch awl.
Engine started, eventually, after 7 seconds of cranking or so

Check VCDS, IQ was at 9 (strange, IQ was at 3 where I made the marks.

Hammer modded QA with car idling until VCDS read 4.5 (looking for better mileage)

Car ran fine. drove it around for about two hours since I hadn't been able to drive it for two weeks.

Ended up parking and getting groceries, returned to the car and IT WOULD NOT START.

Frustrated, I grabbed my tools out of the hatch and opened the hood. Pulled the QA off the IP and put it right back. Engine starts. Idles high. Killed engine. Removed IP and placed it back exactly where my marks were. Started after 4 seconds of cranking. Drove home in a terrible mood.

- - - -

So - what is happening here?

If I leave the QA so far to the right that the engine starts to run away - the engine will start up fine.

If I place the QA where it will idle, the thing barely starts.

I suspect that the thermostatic tee and fuel filter may be bad and I plan on replacing them this week. I do not think this is directly causing the issue. If the car starts, it will drive forever with no hiccups, stalling, or anything of the sort.

Am I looking at a bad Injection Pump here? Bad Quantity Adjuster? Bad injectors? Bad Crank Position Sensor? Bad Glow Plug Relay? Bad Luck?

Also something strange to note - while I was cranking the engine over in the parking lot after getting groceries, I noticed my speedometer would jump to about 5mph or so. It usually does not do that.

I feel that I cannot get this resolved in the near future I may well sell the car.
 

kiva822

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Location
Chico, CA
TDI
'03 Wagon
I have huge respect for how far you've gone with this issue. For me, I love figuring stuff out and learning about my cars. However, at some point, I just give it to a pro to fix. My time is too valuable. Perhaps, you're at that point?

My vote is bad QA...but hell, I dunno.

edit: one suggestion that I might make: post in the TDI 101 forum. IMO, you are in the right area, but that gets more traffic, me thinks. However, that may be a no-no, forum rules-wise....
 
Last edited:

runonbeer

Maintenance EnthusiastVendor
Joined
Apr 15, 2002
Location
Austin, TX/Chapel Hill, NC
TDI
'00 Golf 02M, '10 Golf 02E, '02 UTE 02M
Tough one. Just wrote a long reply and my iPhone suddenly decided I wanted to jump to the toureg section and dumped the post.

Pump case pressure/vane pump problem.

I'd very much like to see timing in basic settings.

Good luck. You're doing a great job so far.
 

kiva822

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Location
Chico, CA
TDI
'03 Wagon
runonbeer, would the case pressure release valve can't cause that problem, can it? I thought it was only seen as an issue with upper RPM's?

It would be very interesting to replace with known good pump. Anybody near you have a spare and/or maybe pick one up used on the cheap, so long as it's 'known good / running'?
 

runonbeer

Maintenance EnthusiastVendor
Joined
Apr 15, 2002
Location
Austin, TX/Chapel Hill, NC
TDI
'00 Golf 02M, '10 Golf 02E, '02 UTE 02M
I don't know if the plug has anything to do with it but I am implicating actual case pressure here. Ie stuck vanes on primary or fuel restriction. Seems intermittent too.

We need to know that it's timed in the graph.
 
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