Installed 3.0 TDI Turbo in 2.7 TDI

hatemi

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Aug 25, 2005
Location
Finland
TDI
Audi A6 4F 3.0TDI
Iirc it drains to the head or the block at drivers side. The pipe is attached to the exhaust y-pipe with one bracket and goes under the exhaust manifold.

Lähetetty minun PLK-L01 laitteesta Tapatalkilla
 

eddie_1

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Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
There are 2 setups. One is as Hatemi said and is also on this car, where the return line is attached to the underside of the turbo and goes through an opening in the exhaust collector which also acts to support the Turbo. But the older bkn etc. 3.0 TDI have the BV50 Borg Warner Turbo (not Garrett) which sits on a separate 'tripod' similar looking to the collector but not the collector. It appears the oil goes through this 'tripod' support and then through a line back to the block on the driver side as Hatemi said. I know it is on the driver side but personally did not follow it all the way back.


 

Lucian189

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Jan 30, 2011
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Romania
TDI
3.0 TDI CR
It is on driver side ,and bouth turbous are interchangeble,except for acctuator..
Lets say an cdya engine with gtb2260 and a bkn with bv50 ,bouth engines have the drain in the driver side ,and use same drain pipe.
 

eddie_1

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Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Got the boost back quite a bit at low rpm with minor fueling changes. See Turbo lag after IC and then recovery in chart with retune.
1) NM2IQ map asked for a bit more fuel where the Turbo comes up (was lowered earlier to save clutch but now ok due to lag)
2) More important altered the Boost set point map which requests turbo pressure at lower IQ.
Did some other unrelated fueling changes to go to 77mg/str now and lowered AFR a bit. 3rd gear pull time got quicker, although turbo not coming up as quickly. Unfortunately got a slight haze now.
There are a bunch of N75 maps in the map pack I am using, but I am not sure which one applies. Will try to figure out which one and see if I can increase duty cycle a bit.



 

eddie_1

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Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Increased the fueling gradually to ~85mg. Clutch still holding fine. FWD Wheels tend to break loose on stop light take off but great on Autobahn. I get an IQ limitation above 4000rpm. The MAF shows not enough air getting in. I dropped the AFR at high rpm in the lambda maps to cheat a bit and it is slightly better. But there could be some other limiters above 4000rpm too. Any ideas? Might try to get the BiTDI 313HP MAF and try that. Anybody know the part number? Is it from the 4G?

Also a plot comparison of the IATs after the intercooler upgrade. Quite good after intercooler. After adjusting for outside temp differences about 30C better even with much more fuel being injected. see chart. Peaks are full throttle locations on the Autobahn. The blue curve is shorter as I logged for 15 mins and before the red was for 45mins.





 

eddie_1

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Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
So you satisfied with the mods?
Hi Lucian, yes very satisfied. Good power in mid range now. 100kmh to 200kmh acceleration is much better at 85mg. I will try to post 0-200kmh video soon. I don't plan any further mods at the moment. Without quattro and tiptronic the clutch and traction will become a problem for further mods. Great car actually.
 

altz1

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Jan 15, 2015
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Estonia
TDI
A8 4H 4.2TDI, Cayenne 4.2TDI, 6.0TDI
Maf drop at higher rpm is probably cuz of ports/cams. It just doesent breath good enough. I had similar situation. You can try to increase boost at higher rpm if egp and egt allows.
 

eddie_1

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Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Maf drop at higher rpm is probably cuz of ports/cams. It just doesent breath good enough. I had similar situation. You can try to increase boost at higher rpm if egp and egt allows.
Thank you very much for sharing. I will try it out. EGT is really good after Intercooler. EGP/EMP I am not monitoring but I expect it is ok with bigger manifold compared to 4 cylinder.
 

parik

New member
Joined
Oct 8, 2016
Location
Prague
TDI
q7 4.2 tdi
swith to asmod, these values in damos 2.7tdi

AirCtl_swtMAirPerCyl_C
PFlt_swtASModOn_C
AirCtl_swtmAirDT1In_C
 

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Thanks Parik. I located these switches in the bpp damos but still looking for them in my file. Need to do a bit more pattern digging with respect to nearby maps. Looks like they are all related to turning off MAF dependency.
In the mean time I raised the boost to 2,8bar from 2,7bar for the same 86mg max fueling. The acceleration time 2000-4000rpm improved slightly and got rid off smoke haze. Turbo overshoots a bit on sudden full throttle to 1,9bar then settles to 1,8bar. But Turbo still sounds smooth.


swith to asmod, these values in damos 2.7tdi
AirCtl_swtMAirPerCyl_C
PFlt_swtASModOn_C
AirCtl_swtmAirDT1In_C
 

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
swith to asmod, these values in damos 2.7tdi

AirCtl_swtMAirPerCyl_C
PFlt_swtASModOn_C
AirCtl_swtmAirDT1In_C
- I found the switches but I am not sure if it will help at the moment. It looks like I will need to go maybe ~2.1bar and up, to get real power out at 4000rpm due to VE constraints. Currently I am pushing the charger to 1,8bar with slight 1,9bar overshoot. I don't feel comfortable pushing it any more. For the air I have, I think the fueling is maxed out. Need to look at upgrade options, but not a priority.

- What's been really great is that the clutch has been holding up. Basically what I found with the FWD traction is, that the wheels tend to slip before the clutch slips. Next summer I will probably try semi-slicks. In any case I have the tq limiter set below 600NM. What's funny is that from reading around it seems the quattro with manual transmission and same clutch starts to slip earlier due to heavier 4 wheel load.

- One other thing I did was massage the SOI maps 4-5 degrees advance at higher rpm and acceleration time did show minor improvement. Also advanced part load area at lower rpm where the times are retarded for EGR purposes. I did note slight improvement in fuel economy.
 

eddie_1

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Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Finally got around to making a VIDEO with 0-100kmh, 100-200kmh, 200-261kmh and 200-267kmh runs.

0-100kmh run with VCDS was 7.37sec.
100-200kmh run with VCDS was 14.62sec.

Nowhere near 11/12 club :D, but I have serious weight. Last weighing was 2007Kg.
Max EGTs at sustained 267kmh was 988C under 1000C and outside temp 20C.

Still need to do another Insoric Power meas. Any guesses for the power?

I might eventually upgrade the MAF to BiTurbo to improve power at higher rpm.
Did a butt dyno plot of power in 3rd gear but needs to be verified of course.

 
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Layerz

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Feb 23, 2007
Location
Leicester
TDI
Audi A4 2.5 TDI AKE
Nice, how did you plot the Butt Dyno? I have a spread sheet I've used before that's fun with my VCDS laggy inputs - need to average some groups.
 

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Nice, how did you plot the Butt Dyno? I have a spread sheet I've used before that's fun with my VCDS laggy inputs - need to average some groups.
Hi, The spreadsheet I used orginated from Rosstech themselves. I think one of their guys put it together. (I tried a couple of other freebies but did not look right.)
http://www.ross-tech.net/vag-com/examples/dynoplot6.xls

Here he explains how the math is done:
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/vag-com-discussion-51/"butt-dyno"-instructions-2580766/

Basically you do an acceleration followed by coasting to subtract the losses. I found in 3rd gear the results were smoother.

The Insoric method I think is no different except their uProc based sensor on the wheel is very very accurate to get the revs upto 1KHz sampling and then to calculate the speed. The more accurate the speed through higher sampling the better the power prediction according to the polytechnic prof that developed Insoric in Switzerland. Here is his pitch (unfortunately in german). As usual they want a suitcase full of money for the sensor. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIHmWZ1jGYo
 
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Layerz

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Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Location
Leicester
TDI
Audi A4 2.5 TDI AKE
Hi, The spreadsheet I used orginated from Rosstech themselves. I think one of their guys put it together. (I tried a couple of other freebies but did not look right.)
http://www.ross-tech.net/vag-com/examples/dynoplot6.xls

Here he explains how the math is done:
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/vag-com-discussion-51/"butt-dyno"-instructions-2580766/

Basically you do an acceleration followed by coasting to subtract the losses. I found in 3rd gear the results were smoother.

The Insoric method I think is no different except their uProc based sensor on the wheel is very very accurate to get the revs upto 1KHz sampling and then to calculate the speed. The more accurate the speed through higher sampling the better the power prediction according to the polytechnic prof that developed Insoric in Switzerland. Here is his pitch (unfortunately in german). As usual they want a suitcase full of money for the sensor. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIHmWZ1jGYo


Hrmm I'll need to go over this later - for ages I've been meaning to turn the this into something with my Arduino.

The lack and price of an AWD dyno's in my area makes measuring changes purely opinion based.

Thanks for the links and if you'd like my bits explaining I'll need to refresh exactly how we came to that as an engineer friend helped me with the spreadsheet. At the time I made that I was tinkering on the most shoe string of budgets and tbh even now I have things I'd rather spend money on then full VAGCOM.
 

eddie_1

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Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Updated the Video with 0-100Kmh run. VCDS gives 7.37sec.
Bit tricky to do with FWD traction issues and manual gear changing.
DMF groans just a bit but not too bad.
 

eddie_1

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Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Finally got around to upgrading to the BiTDI MAF. Used the BiTDI plastic tube and a 45deg elbow silicone reducer from ~78mm ~57mm. Cut the silicone reducer to get the right length. The CCV is venting through a hose at the moment, but need to couple it into the plastic BiTDI tube section. Plot included of the BiTDI MAF linearization map which is 37point while my stock BPP MAP is 57 point. Adapted the BiTDI MAF to 57 point.

Still need to try it out on the highway. Not 100% sure if this was the limitation. My IQ was being limited fairly linearly above ~4000rpm. Could be other limiters as well.











 

eddie_1

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Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Bingo!

The fueling was indeed MAF limited at higher RPM and thankfully I did not run into further limiters. The charts show how the MAF is vastly improved at higher rpm and how the fueling is now extended.

I had issues getting the newer Biturbo MAF element to work but resolved it by using the old element in the new Biturbo housing. Details are in this thread.

Below that a pic of how I adapted the Biturbo hose to attach the CCV. I cut out the old coupler and attached it using the JB Weld epoxy.

My 3rd gear pull time improved about 30% between 4000 and 4500 rpm with same fueling. Got a bit of smoke up there now because I had pulled in the boost a bit for protection. It will be interesting to see what happens with my top speed with power up there, although the Avant doesn't have the best drag coefficient.





 

altz1

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Jan 15, 2015
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Estonia
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A8 4H 4.2TDI, Cayenne 4.2TDI, 6.0TDI
Good job Edward! How much fueling you have now in 3000-4500rpm?
 

eddie_1

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Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
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Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Good job Edward! How much fueling you have now in 3000-4500rpm?
Hi, Thanks for your tips.
Here are the values:
2919 83,9 3129 85,1 3297 85,9 3465 85,9 3633 85,9 3780 85,9 3969 85,5 4116 85,1 4263 84,7 4410 84,3 4557 83,9 4683 82,7

With about 1.9bar on the gauge. Not sure if I want to push the Turbo much more.
 

eddie_1

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Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Went for a spin today after the BiTurbo MAF housing upgrade. I also extended the fueling 86 mg/str to 5000rpm and a bit above. Running 2 bar boost to about 4700rpm. THE CAR REACHED 283 KM/H speedo without too much effort, fairly quick and EGT (only 944C) was not an issue because didn't have to hang around trying to get there. Could have a gone a bit more but it was fast enough. Probably the highest top speed with this engine and transmission in an A6 C6 station wagon. :) Here is the video:
Hardlink:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh2Ft7fsQrM&t=3s


Attached pic of speed. then fuel extension log. The CCV connection did not glue, so I cut a thread in the hose and it is fine now. pics attached of final setup.












 
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altz1

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A8 4H 4.2TDI, Cayenne 4.2TDI, 6.0TDI
Nice to see clean build with useful upgrades. By useful upgrades i mean that every part is installed with a reason and helps to get to the goal.
Btw, .....it ...smells like...turbo upgrade soon :D 300kmh is not too far anymore, but you are probably limited by gearing. Good work in general :)
 

eddie_1

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Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Nice to see clean build with useful upgrades. By useful upgrades i mean that every part is installed with a reason and helps to get to the goal.
Btw, .....it ...smells like...turbo upgrade soon :D 300kmh is not too far anymore, but you are probably limited by gearing. Good work in general :)
Thanks for the encouragement and advice. Definitely something to think about with better compressor maybe. Gearing maybe still just ok to get to 300kmh. I was still under 5000rpm. But it is getting scarier with the speed. :D
 

eddie_1

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Dec 27, 2004
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Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
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Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
"EGT was only 940 degrees"

Celcius?

If so, then you "only" exceeded the limit by 100 degrees.....
Hallo Alex, i saw several threads saying 950C is probably ok for short runs. Is 850C the spec.? I saw some descriptions a while ago, about newer Garrett and GTB2260VK having slightly better heat performance?
 

majesty78

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Dec 7, 2007
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Austria/ Europe
TDI
Skoda Superb 3T5 CFFB
Yes, 830 sustained and 850 short time is the official Garrett limitation for those GTB turbos.

Makes me wonder they could stand so much more heat, but (honey)well they seem overengineered in this case :)
 

altz1

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Estonia
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A8 4H 4.2TDI, Cayenne 4.2TDI, 6.0TDI
I had 940 on mine also while under load high rpm, but yes i dont think it very good in long term. Didnt happen anything in 25000km tough and new owner now drives even harder. What is your EOI @5krpm?
 

eddie_1

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Dec 27, 2004
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Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
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Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
I had 940 on mine also while under load high rpm, but yes i dont think it very good in long term. Didnt happen anything in 25000km tough and new owner now drives even harder. What is your EOI @5krpm?
I have 30 deg. advance SOI and just under 1ms duration full throttle.
 
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