TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

Hello, I have been looking at a lot of the UOA's trying to figure out what I should start using for my 2001 Jetta. I am kind of more confused now then I was when I began. I am looking at Pentosin 5w-40, Mobil 1 0w-40, Mobil 5w-40 ESP, Redline 5w-40 & 0w-40, and looked a little bit at Total Quartz Energy 9000 5w-40. I am running TDT right now, and since we are just now starting to pull out of winter, I feel it is safe to say that I cannot use it as a year round oil. The cold starts were less than ideal. For a while I thought about trying M1 0w-40. But from what I have been seeing, the 0w-40's don't seem to have the best wear properties and tend to shear, so they might not be the best for a 10k mi OCI. Is that off base? Any UOA's that you could point me to regarding the the formerly mentioned oils for comparison would be appreciated.

TooSlick said:

Have any of the Passats that show low levels of aluminum had this chain replacement done? There almost has to be some Al alloy in these gears or the internals of the new oil pump.

To put this 20 ppm of Al in perspective, if you took a very small paperclip & dissolved it in five quarts of oil, you'd have an Fe level of ~ 100 ppm in your oil analysis....

TS

Click to expand...

For gear-driven upgraded oil pump balance shaft assemblies, I suspect these Al levels are from the new gear surfaces. Still need to determine if the coating on the new gears is an aluminum-based coating on the meshing surfaces of the new gears.

LINK: Post Balance Shaft Oil Change (Click Here)

A best guess at this point but based on what has been reported, entirely plausible.

GgOTi said:

Hello, I have been looking at a lot of the UOA's trying to figure out what I should start using for my 2001 Jetta. I am kind of more confused now then I was when I began. I am looking at Pentosin 5w-40, Mobil 1 0w-40, Mobil 5w-40 ESP, Redline 5w-40 & 0w-40, and looked a little bit at Total Quartz Energy 9000 5w-40. I am running TDT right now, and since we are just now starting to pull out of winter, I feel it is safe to say that I cannot use it as a year round oil. The cold starts were less than ideal. For a while I thought about trying M1 0w-40. But from what I have been seeing, the 0w-40's don't seem to have that best wear properties and tend to shear, so they might not be the best for a 10k mi OCI. Is that off base? Any UOA's that you could point me to regarding the the formerly mentioned oils for comparison would be appreciated.

Click to expand...

I don't recall seeing a *bad* UOA from M1 0w40 over the years. If you can wait a few months I'll have a recent UOA with it.

That being said, you could use any of the oils you mentioned for 10K miles. If you want the best value for a great oil, look for Shell Rotella T (or T6) 5w40.

aja8888 said:

Please check your thinking. I just reviewed as many BHW UOA's I could find in the OUA thread and the Al ranges from 4 to 8 PPM in them. Mine is at 21 PPM. Something is amiss here and I am considering re-sampling the old drain oil (still have it) and sending the new sample to a different lab.

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Aluminum levels of 4-8 ppm in other Passat TDIs are higher than the average for TDI engines in Jettas, Golfs, and NB... which are typically 0-2 ppm.

TornadoRed said:

Aluminum levels of 4-8 ppm in other Passat TDIs are higher than the average for TDI engines in Jettas, Golfs, and NB... which are typically 0-2 ppm.

Click to expand...

TR: you mentioned in the previous post that "my results are fairly typical" and I assumed you meant to other Passat PDs, not in comparison to PD Jettas, Golfs, etc. My results are not fairly typical to other Passats is my point.

GgOTi said:

Hello, I have been looking at a lot of the UOA's trying to figure out what I should start using for my 2001 Jetta. I am kind of more confused now then I was when I began.... I am running TDT right now, and since we are just now starting to pull out of winter, I feel it is safe to say that I cannot use it as a year round oil. The cold starts were less than ideal.

Click to expand...

TDT has been a great all-season oil for TDI owners in all climate zones. I don't know what you mean by "less than ideal" cold starts. Do you mean it seemed like the oil took too long to circulate? If so, did you have your oil filter installed the right way up? Or do you mean the engine didn't turn over as fast as you'd like, in which case it's time for a new battery.

Bob:

I was not trying to infer the there was a "bad" UOA for the 0w-40 oils. I was simply trying to say that the trend seemed to be that the 0w-40 UOA's were not as favorable as the 5w-40 UOA's. I know that this might seem like "well duh..." kind of a statement, but I am hoping to get a more thorough explanation about that and if it should be a significant decision factor.

TR:

My experience this winter with the TDT was smoke on startups, decreased mpg (which I understand is seasonal, but it seemed like it was worse than usual), and the engine would have a noticeable drop in performance before the engine had fully warmed up. I was not trying to say that TDT was a bad oil. I don't think that it is. I just believe that there are mostly likely better year round oils. If that hasn't been your experience than more power to ya.

GgOTi said:

Bob:

I was not trying to infer the there was a "bad" UOA for the 0w-40 oils. I was simply trying to say that the trend seemed to be that the 0w-40 UOA's were not as favorable as the 5w-40 UOA's. I know that this might seem like "well duh..." kind of a statement, but I am hoping to get a more thorough explanation about that and if it should be a significant decision factor.

TR:

My experience this winter with the TDT was smoke on startups, decreased mpg (which I understand is seasonal, but it seemed like it was worse than usual), and the engine would have a noticeable drop in performance before the engine had fully warmed up. I was not trying to say that TDT was a bad oil. I don't think that it is. I just believe that there are mostly likely better year round oils. If that hasn't been your experience than more power to ya.

Click to expand...

I can attest that TDT feels on the sluggish side in the winter compared to a thinner Euro or thinner API oil, until the TDT warms up. It's a difference you notice right away. (the first cold start and cold-running with a thinner oil)

For M1 0w40, we'd really have to see recent usage of both 0w40 and 5w40 used in the same vehicle, under similar conditions, to really know. A few more months and I'll have a 5K mile sample.

As far as wear amounts.. the difference between 20 ppm Fe and 40 ppm Fe (for example) over 10K miles, over the long term is effectively none. Double a small number is still a small number in the grand scheme of things.

I would have to agree with Bob as far as low wear numbers go.
I think people get a bit obsessive about the numbers.
The best "winter start" oil I have used was the German Castrol 0w30. I did use this oil year round as well.

Well Here is my second UOA since starting. Anyone have any thoughts about how it looks. I'm thinking its good, but I'm not exactly sure whats good and whats not.

Pirate, everything looks fine.

Pirate,

Are you running a biodiesel blend?
Analysis results are excellent - lots of margin after 10k miles.

TS

2001 Jetta 205,000 miles at sampling
Mobil 1 TDT 5W-40 CI-4+ (last of the CI-4+ that I have)
• 9957 miles (Sample # 2)
• Oil in sump for 314 days (5/24/09 thru 4/3/10) (Sample #1 from last year was in the sump for 308 days and was also Mobil 1 TDT CI-4+, so they make a great comparison)
_Total make-up oil added: 3/4 qt
_Fuel: ULSD + PS only, no bio for this run.
Side Note: Sample #1 had a TBN that was slightly low, especially for TDT. I speculated that if the WVO-derived B20 I had been using almost exclusively had not been properly titrated or acidified from storage problems, could have lead to my lower TBN on the assumption that combustion isn't perfect on these especially during cold starts. I switched back to Irving ULSD for this sample, and my TBN was up 55%, despite being identical oils in the sump for identical periods of time & miles. Interesting.
_Driving style: If it's driven enough to reach operating temperature, it will see WOT and at least 3,500.
_Synopsis of driving: These 10,000 miles included many short trips (7-10 miles) during the winter time after cold starts. I would say the miles were only about 50% highway, whereas the first sample was 75%.
_Wear rate: 2.81 ppm/1000 miles

--------
Nitration comments? I think Polaris is over reacting a little, the TBN is good. They do mention that too much disparity between oxidation and nitration can indicate air to fuel ratio problems.
Viscosity is nearly unchanged from virgin (14.9) and soot is still low. I'm happy and don't see anything alarming.



Here's some gasser info on Nitrates (AFAIK I have a fully functioning EGR w/ stock setting):
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nitration results from the heating of O, O2, N2, OH, and H in the
cylinder during combustion. The separate gasses mix
and when burned, form many resulting gasses
including NOx.

NOx generation is highest during: high
pressures, high temperatures, during crank angles between 10 and 40
degrees, and when the A/F ratio gets near
16:1, such as in lean-burn engines.

NOx gets into the oil via the blow-by gasses
during the power cycle when the cylinder pressure is highest and when
when the temp of the buring gasses is highest.

EGR valves and large overlap cams introduce
exhaust gas back into the cylinder to cool it down, reducing generation
of
NOx.[/FONT]

eb,

It's normal for the TBN to fluctuate a bit from test to test, so I'm not sure how much significance that has? Elevated nitration can be caused by EGR valve deposits that cause it to remain partially open. You could check that, although this level of nitration is really not bad (if oxidation/nitration are at critical levels, the TBN is typically pretty low and that's not the case here.) As a point of reference, Polaris labs would normally use a lower cutoff of 4.0 for the TBN (ASTM D-4739 test method).

Air filtration is also extremely good and the soot is well in check, both of which help to keep the upper engine metals (Ni, Cr, Al, Fe) low...

These are both excellent reports; the engine is hardly wearing at all. Your change interval is also about right - I like to keep the TBN at change out > 4.0 in the interest of oil deposit control.

TS

Hello everyone, this is my first post on this UOA forum, but I have a funny story...

Our daughter was home visiting, and she usually is a very bright and perceptive person (really!), but she asked me:

"Dad, did you have blood work done lately?"

"No, why?"

"Isn't this a blood work report?"

"No, sweetie, it's the used oil analysis for my car."

Then she looked on the bottom, and saw "fuel", "antifreeze", etc. Yes, she was sufficiently embarrassed and I got a good laugh out of it.

tdisky said:

Hello everyone, this is my first post on this UOA forum, but I have a funny story...

Our daughter was home visiting, and she usually is a very bright and perceptive person (really!), but she asked me:

"Dad, did you have blood work done lately?"

"No, why?"

"Isn't this a blood work report?"

"No, sweetie, it's the used oil analysis for my car."

Then she looked on the bottom, and saw "fuel", "antifreeze", etc. Yes, she was sufficiently embarrassed and I got a good laugh out of it.

Click to expand...

OH yes, for the car !! Its Obama care !!

2005 Beetle TDI -- Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 -- Blackstone Analysis



51,000 miles on car, 9000 miles on the oil.

Not sure about this. Iron seems high, even though Blackstone seems unconcerned. Boron most certainly gets used up because VOA's of this oil have shown boron @ over 200ppm. But the Zinc and Phos seem close to 505.01 territory, correct me if I'm wrong.

No trending data because this is first oil analysis ever. Prior oil was Mobil 1 TDT and before that Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W30 (505.01), and before than Castrol TXT 5W40. Oil filter is VW OE bought at dealer parts counter (Hengst?...)

Should also be noted that about 2/3 those 9000 miles on the oil were urban/suburban short trips and most of that during midwest (cold) winter. Morning startups were after sitting in heated garage (ambient temp @ 55 F on avg duiring winter) but only a 5 - 7 mile drive to her work, then cold parking lot start up at 5pm and short trip it home 5 - 7 miles.

Blackstone seems happy with it, so I guess I should be happy. Not sure I want to go for 11K miles on the new fill of this same oil, though. Maybe 8000 next time to match the universal avg they mentioned.

P.S. Bought and used M1 ESP 5W30 again for this oil change... but next time around will be mainly highway miles since she started a new job today that involves an approx 35 mile commute each way on the interstate... Hoping the iron goes down in next analysis.

SootFoot said:

Blackstone seems happy with it, so I guess I should be happy. Not sure I want to go for 11K miles on the new fill of this same oil, though. Maybe 8000 next time to match the universal avg they mentioned.

Click to expand...

It looks like a middle-of-the-road PD UOA, which is fine. Fe is ok, Al & Cr aren't bad and there appears to be active additives left. I'd run it out to 11k next time.

Sootfoot,

For a PD analysis, this looks very good for short trip driving conditions....

It generally takes a few runs with the same oil to see the best results, so your second run of the ESP will be a better indicator of how this oil is working for you. Iron levels are about what you'd see with a 505.01 oil in the 5w-40 grade. TBN is okay here and you can go to a 10k interval. These new 5w-30's are very shear stable, which is good.

TS

Next sample will come much sooner ---> I just Mapquested her new daily commute and its 50 miles each way, about 3/4 of the distance is on the interstate (I-64) and the rest on a state road two laner. Puts next OCI @ about 3 months out. Not sure where I got the 35 mile figure... might be what she ball parked it at.

Maybe I don't know enough about it yet, but one thing that seems impressive in this sample is the low insolubles.... I'm thinking soot is an insoluble (?) ... because of all the uber short trips in cold weather I would have thought the oil would have more insolubles and also more fuel in it but I'm not complaining.

Insolubles is a catch all term that includes soot, high molecular weight by-products of oxidation/nitration and silica/alumina(dirt). A level of only 0.3% under these conditions is excellent. & indicates your fuel injectors are in good shape.

With the new long distance driving routine I'd expect Fr levels to drop by
10%-20%....

TS

Just did my first UOA at 70k using M1 TDT in on '05 Golf PD... USLD only as fuel. Ran it about 7k miles. Can anyone interpret the aluminum, iron and nickel levels... they seem to be high but i'm not sure if I should be worried yet.

ALUMINUM
11
CHROMIUM
2
IRON
47
COPPER
4
LEAD
2
TIN
3
MOLYBDENUM
2
NICKEL
6
MANGANESE
1
SILVER
0
TITANIUM
0
POTASSIUM
3
BORON
36
SILICON
4
SODIUM
3
CALCIUM
1429
MAGNESIUM
645
PHOSPHORUS
967
ZINC
1229
BARIUM
0
SUS Viscosity @ 210°F
63.7
cSt Viscosity @ 100°C
11.25
Flashpoint in °F
425
Fuel %
<0.5
Antifreeze %
0.0
Water %
0.0
Insolubles %
0.3
TBN
6.5

SM,

These somewhat elevated levels of upper engine metals (Cr,Al, Fe, Ni) normally indicates abrasive wear, typically caused by ingestion of dirt. Are you running any sort of aftermarket air filter on this engine???

The other thing that's very odd is that the viscosity @ 100C is way too low for the Mobil 1, TDT (5w-40). It should be more like 13.5-15.0 Cst @ 100C, ie a mid-range 40wt. If it wasn't for the chemical signature of this oil (which matches the TDT formulation), I'd suspect you were running the Mobil 1, 5w-30.

The final question was what oil were you running previously in this engine?

High levels of soot will also result in high iron and chrome (valve train & ring/cylinder wear). However your insolubles level of 0.3% is in the normal range for a TDI engine.

TS

smendick said:

Just did my first UOA at 70k using M1 TDT in on '05 Golf PD... USLD only as fuel. Ran it about 7k miles. Can anyone interpret the aluminum, iron and nickel levels... they seem to be high but i'm not sure if I should be worried yet.

Click to expand...

What did you have in there before, it looks like there might have been the residual from something else?

The wear metal levels are not a concern, though they are a bit higher than normal for only 7k miles.

Too slick, you read the tea leaves spot on. Previous owner used 505.1 according to the written records from the dealer--who knows if the records are accurate.

When I bought the car at 63k miles, I drained the oil immediately and put in M1 TDT. When I changed the air filter at 70k at the time of the sample (was indeed aftermarket), it was quite dirty with a good bit of soil in it. I cleaned out the housing and put in a Mann filter--should be good to go now.

Oldpoopie checked my cam at around 68k & said it looked fine.

Should I expect my upper engine metal wear to back down next time I check with the new filter in place?

TooSlick said:

SM,

These somewhat elevated levels of upper engine metals (Cr,Al, Fe, Ni) normally indicates abrasive wear, typically caused by ingestion of dirt. Are you running any sort of aftermarket air filter on this engine???

The other thing that's very odd is that the viscosity @ 100C is way too low for the Mobil 1, TDT (5w-40). It should be more like 13.5-15.0 Cst @ 100C, ie a mid-range 40wt. If it wasn't for the chemical signature of this oil (which matches the TDT formulation), I'd suspect you were running the Mobil 1, 5w-30.

The final question was what oil were you running previously in this engine?

High levels of soot will also result in high iron and chrome (valve train & ring/cylinder wear). However your insolubles level of 0.3% is in the normal range for a TDI engine.

TS

Click to expand...

I think you'll see better results with continued use of the Mobil 1/TDT. Better air filtration is always helpful...

I'd agree with TR that even these results are nothing to be concerned about.

TS

This is my fist oil change since i bought the car. 2000 Jetta TDI Auto. The oil is Pentosyn 5w-40 505.01. with Mann oil filter and air filter. I had 9,840 miles on the oil and my car had 136,840 miles.
Blackstone said, "It looks like you got a nice one in this Jetta! Universal averages for the 1.9 TDI are based on oil run of -8,000 miles. You ran this oil nearly 10,000 miles bit all wear read close to average and in the proper balance. No fuel, coolant or moisture was found in this sample of used 5w40. The TBN read 5.7 so you still had lots of active additive left. 1.0 is a low TBN reading. With every thing looking good as it does here, we see no reason not to run your oil longer. Try up to 12,000 miles next time and check back for another look at wear."

When i Changed the oil I changed to M1 5w-40 TDT with a Mann oil filter, Just because I can get it locally.

ALUMINUM
4
CHROMIUM
2
IRON
45
COPPER
7
LEAD
1
TIN
2
MOLYBDENUM
6
NICKEL
2
MANGANESE
1
SILVER
0
TITANIUM
0
POTASSIUM
3
BORON
13
SILICON
4
SODIUM
4
CALCIUM
3643
MAGNESIUM
15
PHOSPHORUS
1395
ZINC
1761
BARIUM
0
SUS Viscosity @ 210°F
73.3
cSt Viscosity @ 100°C
13.81
Flashpoint in °F
415
Fuel %
<0.5
Antifreeze %
0.0
Water %
0.0
Insolubles %
0.3
TBN
5.7

Wow. Look at the Zinc content of that Pentosin. Lots of it.

That is a lot of zinc... is this really a 505.01 or is there more zinc added?