Visting Prius Owner

redbarron55

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2010
Location
Navarre, FL.
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI Executive
I wish I understood all of than and the point.
I am a Prius fan and just had my 2002 totaled.
I also have a 2009 JSW.
The Prius is a very reliable car, just not as much fun. Cheaper to keep on the road and easier ti maintain.
Either can be expensive if you are unlucky, however.
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
After the embargo ended, Jason of Jalopnick had the brilliant idea to video a maximum acceleration in one of the 2016 Prius. Since we knew the weights, it was fairly easy to use the acceleration curve to generate this chart:


  • ~9.8 seconds, 0-60 mph, pretty much the same as before.
  • engine follows power required - instead of winding up the engine, it ramps up following the actual power demand. This change in the control laws keeps it quieter and makes it sound 'less strange' to non-Prius drivers.
  • flat power curve to ~85 mph where it ramps up again - up until this speed, the power demand is within the range of the 98 hp engine. This suggests that higher speeds may draw on traction battery power BUT we need more instrumented testing to know.
  • some speculations about the 0-4 second interval - at the low end, limited torque to prevent the tires from breaking traction and after 4 seconds to optimize fuel consumption. Again, we need more metrics to understand what is going on.
Interesting.

I like a good 0-60 MPH time for times when you need to safely merge from a short on-ramp into fast moving traffic. Since I do a lot of highway driving, I also like a good 60-90 MPH time to be able to get out of dangerous situations quickly or to get away from bad drivers. From the graph it looks like the new Prius will take around 12 seconds to accelerate from 60-90 on the highway. The graph suggests drivers will need to make an appointment to pass with it at those speeds.

Regardless of what I drive, I want to be able to pass safely and with authority when needed.
 
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redbarron55

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2010
Location
Navarre, FL.
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI Executive
Oddly in my experience the car (2002) lacks power when pulling out on the road with oncoming traffic, but the car has good acceleration when moving on the road.
Of course I rarely pull out to pass at over the speed limit (70) and travel mostly on roads with 4 lanes or slower local roads.
My wife really prefers the power of the TDI to the Prius and the greater size and weight.
She equates safety with weight and size. She also like the tires to squall when she stomps on the "gas".
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
Interesting.

I like a good 0-60 MPH time for times when you need to safely merge from a short on-ramp into fast moving traffic. Since I do a lot of highway driving, I also like a good 60-90 MPH time to be able to get out of dangerous situations quickly or to get away from bad drivers. From the graph it looks like the new Prius will take around 12 seconds to accelerate from 60-90 on the highway. The graph suggests drivers will need to make an appointment to pass with it at those speeds.

Regardless of what I drive, I want to be able to pass safely and with authority when needed.
One of the reasons I came was to bring facts and data. We have had bitterly complaining Prius owners in the past who were expecting something else. There is nothing gained from a 'blowing smoke' enema.

One thing that would help would be if anyone has similar, maximum acceleration curves for the TDI models. I read one review that claimed similar Golf 0-60 times but it didn't make sense. Regardless, that might be a useful 'knowledge' reference article . . . better than salesman drivel.

Bob Wilson
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
Since I last posted, the 2016 Prius (Gen-4) has been on sale since the middle of February and we are starting to get hard metrics about the MPG as a function of mph:

  • The performance curves use the EPA roll-down coefficients and metrics from the Gen-3 Prius overhead. Then using three, independent sets of mph vs MPG, we've adjusted the curves to match user reported metrics.
  • April 5 the Toyota papers for the SAE became available with more details about 'how they did it.' For example, the cooled EGR comes from behind the catalytic converter which minimizes deposits in the control valve and tubing.
There are six, distinct, Gen-4 versions but I'm waiting on the 2017 when automatic braking will be available on all trims. Today, it is a $2k option for the Level 3 and 4 Prius and I'm after the Level 2 ECO.

FYI, there are still some 2015 Prius, Gen-3, still on the dealer lots with solid discounts. We have a Gen-3, 2010 Prius and it has and remains a solid performer. However, we'll probably replace the 2003 Prius next year.

Bob Wilson
 
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GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
The new Prius is supposed to be better to drive, but I despise the styling. (I'm not alone in this)

IMO I'd be waiting for the new Hyundai Ioniq to see if it lives up to its promise. Hyundai wants to out-Prius the Prius. Even if they don't quite manage that in reality ... I could stand seeing one in the driveway. The new Prius ... No.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
The problem I have with the Ioniq powertrain is that it uses a DCT. If I'm getting discrete gears, I want a third pedal.

Especially after driving a 2016 Prius for myself, I really see no point in any automatic that isn't a power split device. It's a rather responsive powertrain that does exactly what I ask of it, almost immediately after I ask it of it, which can't be said for DCTs (they're not bad usually, but if they need to drop 2 gears, they get sluggish often, and if they pick the wrong gear...), torque converter automatics (all the bad things about a DCT except smoothness off the line, and then even more sluggish at picking the right gear), or belt CVTs (often sluggish). It's the only automatic I actually like.

I've said this over in the EV thread (largely because I went into things planning on a PHEV, and I'm coming to the conclusion that a standard Prius is really a better fit for how things are for me, most likely), but the 2016 Prius is actually decent, IMO. The power is only adequate, but I mean, a stock ALH's power is also only adequate. (Yes, I've modded mine, but I was fine with how it performed stock, to be honest... and I was mainly interested in an EGR delete and a 99.5 hot start fix at the time, but decided to go ahead and get RC2/3 switchable while I was there. Having read more on the science of NOx's interaction with VOCs to form smog than I had at the time, I wouldn't have done the EGR delete with that knowledge, either.)

I do suspect that a common rail 2.0 TDI would have far better passing performance than a Prius, due to having more horsepower (~19-29) available, but if you handicap the TDI by remaining in 6th gear (or even dropping only to 5th), the Prius may well do better due to better aerodynamics and the quick response of the e-CVT.

That said, even the ALH will feel faster, due to the effects of jerk (the rate of change of acceleration) - the ALH has a lot more jerk, and each shifting event has its own jerk event (especially with the turbo re-spooling), where the Prius doesn't have much jerk off the line, and then smoothly accelerates to your target speed.

And, Toyota's actually given the thing on-center feel, fast steering, and the chassis is competent. And I'm saying this having gotten out of my Miata, test driven the Prius, and then getting back into the Miata to drive home. No, it's no Miata, and trying to compare it directly to one goes down a very foolish road, but it's something that wasn't noticeably bad when being compared back-to-back against a Miata, in terms of handling, and that's saying a lot. (Contrast with something like the Fiesta 1.0T, which I strongly disliked in comparison with my Golf (which, let's be honest, is also not in the league of the Miata), in terms of driver feedback. In fact, I'd say that I like how the Prius chassis behaved better than I like my Golf - lower center of gravity, less nose-heavy, far faster steering, and the Golf's got a twist beam versus the Prius's IRS. Could've used more weight to the steering, though, but it wasn't numb like past Priuses.)

The styling is certainly divisive, but it's at least Toyota trying, which is itself novel. And, I can see a coherent concept to the thing (there's definitely a futuristic anime influence going on here), even if the result doesn't look coherent. It's growing on me, though. (Especially in Hypersonic Red, which is the color I'd get.) It isn't going to appeal to a lot of Volkswagen owners that like the minimalist styling of their cars, though, for sure.

And, the power delivery isn't going to appeal to the subset of TDI owners that fall into the GTD camp of having their fuel economy cake, and eating their performance too. The TDI power delivery, especially when modified, can give a much more sporting feel than the Prius's power delivery, even for the same acceleration (and none of the current TDIs are as slow as the Prius). Chassis-wise, though, I'd say the Prius is perfectly fine. (I'm actually wondering what would happen if Toyota made a "Prius XRS" or similar, with the Camry/ES/RAV4/NX hybrid powertrain, though - 200ish system horsepower instead of 121 would make it move a lot more quickly for sure. They already did something similar with the HS 250h - essentially a Gen 3 Prius sedan with IRS and the Camry hybrid powertrain of the time - but it was tuned to be a soft cruiser, rather than a warm hatch.)
 
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PlaneCrazy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 3, 2000
Location
Province of Quebec, Canada
TDI
Gone...
The new Prius is supposed to be better to drive, but I despise the styling. (I'm not alone in this)

IMO I'd be waiting for the new Hyundai Ioniq to see if it lives up to its promise. Hyundai wants to out-Prius the Prius. Even if they don't quite manage that in reality ... I could stand seeing one in the driveway. The new Prius ... No.
And I am living proof that you're not alone :p

I could stomach the outgoing Prius V. Not a head-turner but a decent-looking practical vehicle albeit a bore to drive (a former colleague has one and says that it shifts your perception of an "engaging" drive from things like rowing the gears and cornering to maximizing efficiency; he's probably right, I did that with my TDIs and it was fun but they were also engaging to drive). If I had to have a Prius it would have been the one. But it's expensive, and I can get a GSW that looks good, drives great, and isn't a gas hog in its own right.

But the new Prius? Man what WERE they thinking??? :eek:
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
Actually, the Prius is not for everyone but hopefully, I've brought some insights, some facts and data that are not found from the 'usual suspects.' The latest 2016 Prius is improved but that does not mean perfect. Heck, a week ago the Tesla Model 3 was announced and the latest rumors are 200-300,000 deposits already placed. Nice but not my taste.

VW stretching out this disaster is pretty much like taking extra time to rub a dog's nose in its own poop. Personally, the answer is simple: one-for-one swap of a cheat diesel for a new compliant car . . . no questions asked and enough extra to cover purchase taxes and registration. Treat the last seven years as a 'free' loaner until a compliant car comes along to replace it. And I don't care what the replacement car is because you'll have to live with it.

I have a lot of respect for this forum. Years ago, I came asking for hard TDI metrics and members were gracious enough to share mph vs MPH data. Hopefully, I've returned the favor . . . sure I'm a Prius-fan boy but sharing . . . and not snark.

Regardless of where you lives and future rides take you, good luck!

Bob Wilson
Huntsville, AL
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
Actually, the Prius is not for everyone but hopefully, I've brought some insights, some facts and data that are not found from the 'usual suspects.' The latest 2016 Prius is improved but that does not mean perfect. Heck, a week ago the Tesla Model 3 was announced and the latest rumors are 200-300,000 deposits already placed. Nice but not my taste.

VW stretching out this disaster is pretty much like taking extra time to rub a dog's nose in its own poop. Personally, the answer is simple: one-for-one swap of a cheat diesel for a new compliant car . . . no questions asked and enough extra to cover purchase taxes and registration. Treat the last seven years as a 'free' loaner until a compliant car comes along to replace it. And I don't care what the replacement car is because you'll have to live with it.

I have a lot of respect for this forum. Years ago, I came asking for hard TDI metrics and members were gracious enough to share mph vs MPH data. Hopefully, I've returned the favor . . . sure I'm a Prius-fan boy but sharing . . . and not snark.

Regardless of where you lives and future rides take you, good luck!

Bob Wilson
Huntsville, AL
Well said, Bob! Happy to have you here. :cool:
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
Hi,

Back in May, I had a free Saturday morning and stopped by the local Toyota dealer to see what sort of prices they were offering the 2016 Prius. They wouldn't give me anything unless I took a test drive.

Now I am only interested in a 2016 Prius, Level 2 ECO with the safety package TSS-P but that is not available. So I used the next closest, a Level 3 with TSS-P and with the sales critter, we headed off to one of my 'test tracks.'

I explained that I needed to see the MPG on the test track which is a one mile loop. Fiddling with the adaptive cruise control, the lowest speed is 28 mph and now it doesn't drop out if you fall under. After one practice loop, we did 5 miles and got 99.1 MPG ... I told him,'Sorry, this is not good enough.'

Back at the dealer, his supervisor brought over a quote for $33k. I explained, sorry but this car does not get the MPG I am expecting. We talked about the Level 3 which has a 'moon roof' instead of the MPG. So he asked me to wait and just as I was ready to walk out the door, came back with $28.7k. I asked how long it was good for, took it home and tossed it out a couple of days later.

Now I've been looking at completed sales on Ebay of BMW i3-REx and knew this was in the same price range as the ones coming off lease. The BMW i3-REx has a 72 mile battery and a small, gas engine and 2 gallon tank that can keep the car at 65 mph if the battery runs out. To make a long story short, I bought one June 3 and drove it 463 miles that night, 11 hours, to Huntsville, AL.

We gave our 2003 Prius, 172k miles, to our housekeeper because she needed reliable, affordable transportation. So the used, 2014 BMW i3-REx, with 6440 miles replaced that car. We had all of the warranty work done, 10 days in the local dealer, and four new tires. Regardless, we've turned the page but still have our 2010 Prius.

The 2016 Prius is a fine car and come 2017 in about 6-7 months, the Level 2 ECO with TSS-P should be available. Had it been available when I did the test drive, I would not have bought the BMW i3-REx. Now that I have it (and getting about half of the miles on 'free' electricity,) I'm not looking back.

We may replace the 2010 Prius with a 2017 Level 2 ECO with TSS-P but that is a decision we'll face in the future. For now, we have a 2010 Prius and a 2014 BMW i3-REx and can wait.

Bob Wilson
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
Congrats on the i3, Bob. The nearly 500 mile trip home is pretty impressive... how many times did you stop for fuel and/or electricity?
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
Hi,
An update, we still have our 2010 Prius but we gave our 2003 Prius to our housekeeper and replaced it with a 2014 BMW i3-REx:

Our housekeeper needed reliable transportation and at 172,000 miles, the 2003 Prius has many years of good service left. This BMW i3-REx coming off lease had 6,440 miles with manufacturer warranty to January 2019. Yet we still like the Prius and it is becoming a buyer's market.

The 2016 Prius are going through model-year change sales. In May, I was offered a Level 3 with the Toyota safety package, TSS-P, for $33k and as I walked out the door, $28.5k. But these prices bracketed the Ebay, completed sale, prices for 2014 BMW i3-REx coming off lease. I bought ours for $29.9k with BMW's safety package (collision avoidance braking, automatic cruise control, e.t.c.).

I bought the BMW via Ebay in Charlotte NC and drove it home via I40: 473 miles in 11 hours. I stopped at Biltmore Park for supper while the sun set and got a free charge but the rest was done on gas in 1 to 1.5 hour hops (it has a small tank.) Gas fill-ups were: Henderson NC; Biltmore Park (supper); Knoxville TN; Cleveland TN; Pittsburg TN (breakfast) and; Huntville AL. Knoxville-to-Cleveland measured 40 MPG @65 mph and Pittsburg-to-Huntsville 44 MPG @55 mph. Each stop added ~1.5 gallons for $3-5 and long enough for a potty break and fresh cup of coffee (or that warm brown liquid they call coffee.)

This is not a butt-buster, cross country car, as the maximum, practical long-range speed of 65 mph and with the small tank, the block-to-block speed would run about 50-55 mph. The top speed is 93 mph for a sprint drawing heavily on the battery but around town, it is awesome:


It has a 168 hp, rear-wheel drive, motor in a 2,900 lb carbon-fiber body on aluminum frame with 80 mile EV range. Charging at home, the BMW i3-REx runs about $0.25 per 10 miles (Huntsville utility rates.) In contrast, our 52 MPG, 2010 Prius runs about $0.37 per 10 miles (Huntsville regular gas prices.)

Best of all there are at least five, 'free' 240V @30A chargers that I use for brunch and after work beverages and take-out. As an experiment, I am finishing a week on 'free' chargers, over 300 miles, in my ordinary, daily driving. I'm driving around town for a week for free.

The BMW i3-REx is not a "road warrior" for those who want butt and bladder busting, +70 mph, highway driving. It can do 1,000 miles in 24 hours as I've already done in both our 2003 and 2010 Prius. Just BMW's 'briar patch' is city driving where the short wheel base, light weight, balanced weight, and high power really shine.

Bob Wilson

ps. If you can wait until September or later, the 2017, Level 2 ECO Prius with the Toyota safety package, TSS-P, will be a great ride with road-warrior capability.
 
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JoshWagen

Veteran Member
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May 2, 2015
Location
Kansas City
TDI
Current: '15 GSW, '11 A3 Former: '13 JSW, 99.5 Jetta
Hi Bob - fun thread. I owned a 2007 Prius VI from 48K-90K miles. It was a family car and treated us well. I loved the MPG, features and it was incredibly cheap to own. Here are a few things I remember:

-stealth mode below 10-15mph

-getting stranded an hour away from home because the trunk battery died. Had to get her towed! (For those of you who don't know, you're pretty much SOL if this goes out in a Prius without another replacement battery nearby. I know, I should have been tracking the age of the battery)

-driving in the mountains made my wife and I really tense because the little Prius was giving her all she had - "Is this thing going to make it up the hill?"

-a$$ numbing seats

-attempting to take off quickly from a stop and the traction control cutting all power. This issue bothered me a lot! I remember many times trying to pull out in traffic quickly and power cutting out - hopefully they re engineered this one for safety's sake.

-"racing" my brother in his Honda CBR 600

I owned the Prius because I felt it was the best possible choice for the environment. I liked the car for many reasons. But after selling the car and getting a Jetta Sportwagen with a growing family, I realized just how much I missed having a "driver's car". By that I mean something that handles well, has some power/braking and feels connected to the road. I hadn't realized it, but the Prius had pretty much numbed me to the driving experience. And I totally get how some people could care less about a sporty car, but I can't see myself going back to a Prius. I've since come to the conclusion that biking/pedestrian centered life is central to sustaining the planet and our health, so I've made life decisions around that.
 

EGK

Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Location
California
TDI
1997 Jetta, 2002 Jetta, 2002 Jetta
This comparison between the Prius and the TDI is a bit silly to me. You're comparing a gasoline-electric hybrid to a pure diesel. There is no technical reason you can't have a diesel-electric hybrid and get the sky high fuel economy that comes along with it. As far as I know only the only mass production diesel-electric hybrid was a Mercedes E class in Europe. There was talk of a TDI hybrid back in 2008 but I don't know if that went anywhere.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Gen 4's a lot better in quite a few regards...
-stealth mode below 10-15mph
My Gen 4 will very easily go into stealth mode at 40 mph, will sometimes do it on a level highway at 60 mph, and it'll even do it on downhills at as high as 73 mph.

-a$$ numbing seats
Mine could use more lumbar support, but other than that, I find the Gen 4's to be quite good. Not quite Volkswagen good, but good, and heavily bolstered. (I'll get to why that's important.)

-attempting to take off quickly from a stop and the traction control cutting all power. This issue bothered me a lot! I remember many times trying to pull out in traffic quickly and power cutting out - hopefully they re engineered this one for safety's sake.
Low rolling resistance tires are better nowadays, the traction control doesn't seem to be ridiculously aggressive, and there's now a traction control off button.

But after selling the car and getting a Jetta Sportwagen with a growing family, I realized just how much I missed having a "driver's car". By that I mean something that handles well, has some power/braking and feels connected to the road. I hadn't realized it, but the Prius had pretty much numbed me to the driving experience. And I totally get how some people could care less about a sporty car, but I can't see myself going back to a Prius.
Test drive a Gen 4 if you need to replace your SportWagen - I find that (compared to the couple of Gen 3s I've driven), they've greatly improved the steering feel and steering rack speed (and it's actually good in those regards), and the handling's actually fairly responsive. The vehicle actually likes to rotate more, the more you push it, interestingly.

Now, the braking still feels weird as it tries to figure out friction vs. regenerative braking, and it's not as direct as a manual transmission vehicle, but the powertrain is decently responsive in mine - I'd say that typically, if I put my foot down, there's less lag in getting the power than there is in an ALH with a VNT15. (And, it'll be more powerful than your Gen 2 was. Still, slower than a common rail TDI. Edmunds got 8.9 0-60 without rollout, 8.6 with, in a 2010 JSW DSG. Compare to 10.1 without, 9.8 with, traction control off, for a Prius Four Touring. Lower trims will be faster, especially Two Eco.)

I've since come to the conclusion that biking/pedestrian centered life is central to sustaining the planet and our health, so I've made life decisions around that.
Yeah, that's ultimately the direction we need to go somehow...

This comparison between the Prius and the TDI is a bit silly to me. You're comparing a gasoline-electric hybrid to a pure diesel. There is no technical reason you can't have a diesel-electric hybrid and get the sky high fuel economy that comes along with it. As far as I know only the only mass production diesel-electric hybrid was a Mercedes E class in Europe. There was talk of a TDI hybrid back in 2008 but I don't know if that went anywhere.
Sure, there's no technical reason why you can't do it, and there's diesel-electric hybrid buses allover the place, the aforementioned Mercedes, as well as a few Peugeot and Citroën diesel-electric hybrids (that didn't actually work well as I understand). However, there's various reasons why it doesn't happen in practice.

The first is simply... a diesel engine with all of its emissions controls (including, now, AdBlue) is expensive, difficult to package cleanly, and adds weight.. A hybrid is expensive, difficult to package cleanly, and adds weight. Now you have to pay both the hybrid and the diesel price premiums, package both ~1 kWh of battery and the urea tank, and deal with a rather heavy car.

Then, there's the benefit that the system provides, which is diminished with a diesel.

So, a hybrid system's first obvious benefit is that it can do regenerative braking, and then use that power to get off the line, and that is absolutely present on a diesel hybrid.

A hybrid system in the form of the Toyota/Ford system, or the GM 2-mode system, can also provide a very effective form of simulated CVT, with almost instant changes between ratios, more efficiency than a true CVT, and (at least in the case of the designs that Toyota and Ford use) better reliability than any other type of automatic transmission (I'd actually argue better reliability than a manual, too - nothing's designed to wear out in the Toyota and Ford systems), and better smoothness than anything else that isn't a CVT (no shift shock ever, it just gets to the perfect engine RPM for your power demand and stays there). That obviously helps a diesel, too. (Which is why there's a ton of buses running around with Cummins ISBs and GM 2-mode transmissions...)

However, neither of those are fundamentally rethinking the engine connected to the transmission, relative to the benefits the hybrid system gives.

Naturally aspirated gasoline engines tend to be lacking in low-end torque compared to turbodiesels of similar displacement... but the electric motor can help fill that in. On a diesel, you may well end up traction limited. (Granted, you can just use less diesel power, but high load at low RPM is the most efficient point usually, meaning you may have to avoid that most efficient point altogether, or not use electric during your acceleration, only cruise. On a diesel, not the end of the world, part-load efficiency is good too, but you're leaving some fuel economy on the table somewhere, most likely.)

This also leads into the Atkinson (or possibly more correctly, Miller - although that is usually used to refer to a supercharged motor with retarded intake timing) cycle combined with an increase in static compression, which greatly increases the thermal efficiency of the engine by getting more expansion out of each combustion event, without increasing actual compression and getting the thermal losses and detonation of that (because some of the excess air is getting pushed back out). For diesels it gets trickier to implement because the static compression needs to be extremely high, but it's relatively easy (especially with modern ECUs, to handle the intake reversion) to implement on a gasser. It does hurt low-end torque, though, which... that's what the electric motor is for. The upshot is that my Prius has a 40% thermally efficient engine (compare to 42.5% efficient for the ALH or the CBEA - and that CBEA figure is probably while cheating) in most operating regimes, with port injection, intake cam only (IIRC) VVT, (heavy) EGR, and a three-way cat. (There is also an exhaust heat exchanger, to speed warm-up.) So, the hybrid system enables gasoline engines with near-diesel efficiency to be used. And, with such an understressed engine (96 hp, 104 lb-ft, out of a 1.8 liter), it can be rather light, too.

Gasoline engines (that aren't set up for lean burn, anyway, and for emissions reasons that isn't a thing any more) tend to have very poor part-load efficiency. A hybrid system can prevent the gasoline engine from ever seeing partial load, by harvesting electricity off the engine if the power demand is lower than the minimum full-load power from the engine. Charge the battery, then once you're at a certain state of charge, shut down the engine and run on electric alone. Repeat as needed. A diesel doesn't get helped by this as much, because of the vastly improved part-load efficiency enabled by always lean burning. (This is also why downsizing and turbocharging gasoline engines is so popular now - the goal being to improve the range of efficiency. The problem with them is that, while at full no-boost load, or a little bit of boost, they're rather efficient (and they'll be there during a cruise usually), but to avoid detonation, they have to run very rich, and as a result are inefficient during acceleration. So, the range of efficiency isn't improved, it's just that the efficiency that's there is available only at part-load, not at full-load. And, this is also why Mazda has things like their wide-authority VVT system on gas engines - full-load is done at Otto cycle, but part-load is done in an Atkinson cycle, by retarding the intake cam on the fly - in the real world, that actually works rather well, because it's no worse than the old engines that it replaced at high power outputs (unlike turbo motors), but low loads are efficient too.)

Basically, you can do a diesel hybrid, but a couple of the effects that it has for making a gasoline engine operate more efficiently while being drivable don't apply to a diesel really, so you won't get the kind of gains that a gasser gets from it, and you get all of the drawbacks in cost, weight, and packaging. A diesel hybrid almost entirely helps you in the city, a gasser hybrid helps you everywhere relative to the base engine.

Another way to look at it is, rather than looking at things at a technical level, ignoring that you can't buy a new TDI... "I've got about $25-30k to spend, I want to get good mileage, what's the best way to do this?" A 2015 Golf or Jetta TDI, or a 2016 Prius will get the same ballpark of highway mileage, and once the TDI isn't cheating, the Prius will get better mileage most likely (but the Prius will do it on cheaper fuel), the Prius will get far better city mileage even with the TDI cheating, the Prius will have more space (more like the Jetta sedan, maybe even more than that), the Prius weighs less than either a Mk7 Golf TDI DSG (and most trims less than the manual) or a 2015 Jetta TDI (either transmission), and the Prius has a better transmission than the DSG (I'm not gonna say it's better than a manual, that's a preference). Oh, and the Prius is less likely to break in expensive ways...
 
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bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
I have to admit having a little more fun in the BMW in City traffic than driving our 2010 Prius. More of 'I want to be there' and not having to plan it but point and go. <GRINS>

Bob Wilson
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Yeah, BEVs are nice like that, with their instant torque delivery.

A Prius can get you the supplementary electric torque instantly, but not the rest.
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
There have been some changes. The BMW i3-REx has been and continues to be a lot of fun but Friday 4 PM, Dec 9, the transmission/motor mount bolt broke in 'rush hour' traffic. We were planning a 1,600 mile trip to Arizona. By the time the BMW got to the dealer, the trip window had closed.

During the two weeks of BMW i3-REx repair (all warranty,) I realized my plan to keep the backup 2010 Prius was fatally flawed. Dynamic cruise control and accident avoidance are a hard requirement and the 2010 Prius would never have that. Worse, first model year BMW i3-REx infantile problems; the repair delays and; cost of single-source, tires; the BMW i3-REx may not be an ideal car for fixed income, retirement.

So I sold the 2010 Prius, 73k miles, for $8k. Carmax only offered $6k and they would have turned around and sold it to someone else for $9-10k (if the usual suspects like Kelly, Edmunds and completed eBay sales are to be believed.) Regardless, the buyer got a Garmin nuvi, 1 1/4" receiver, attachments for a 1 kW 12V-to-120VAC inverter, good tires, full-size spare, dual-camera dash cam, three transaxle oil changes, and oil analysis. The car went to a good home for a fair price. The buyer drove home and got 54 MPG.

I replaced it with a 2017 Prius Prime Plus (lowest trim) for $28.5k and $4.5k Federal tax credit. Bought in North Kingstown RI, I drove it 1,200 miles, 55.7 MPG, using dynamic cruise control in 21 hours. I simply got behind a truck or SUV and let the Prime handle the speed control. Lane keep assist also bleeped if I got too close to the white lines. The Prime has a 22-25 mile electric range for around town. It is not a pocket rocket like the BMW but on the highway, it efficiently, comfortably gets us across long distances comfortably.

Understand I wish you' all the best of luck. Just one word of caution, there appears to be a persistent campaign by Ioniq fan-boys aimed at PriusChat.

Hopefully your moderators are putting the Ioniq fan-boys in a better corral. The Ioniq won't go on sale until April 2017 and their plug-in hybrid not until 6 to 12 months later. In the meanwhile, the Ioniq advocates are making themselves into proper 'Betaware' pests so I've started using personal filters to block the Ioniq-SPAM.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson
 

sandmansans

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Location
NJ/PA
TDI
2014 Jetta
Hi,
An update, we still have our 2010 Prius but we gave our 2003 Prius to our housekeeper and replaced it with a 2014 BMW i3-REx:

Our housekeeper needed reliable transportation and at 172,000 miles, the 2003 Prius has many years of good service left. This BMW i3-REx coming off lease had 6,440 miles with manufacturer warranty to January 2019. Yet we still like the Prius and it is becoming a buyer's market.

The 2016 Prius are going through model-year change sales. In May, I was offered a Level 3 with the Toyota safety package, TSS-P, for $33k and as I walked out the door, $28.5k. But these prices bracketed the Ebay, completed sale, prices for 2014 BMW i3-REx coming off lease. I bought ours for $29.9k with BMW's safety package (collision avoidance braking, automatic cruise control, e.t.c.).

I bought the BMW via Ebay in Charlotte NC and drove it home via I40: 473 miles in 11 hours. I stopped at Biltmore Park for supper while the sun set and got a free charge but the rest was done on gas in 1 to 1.5 hour hops (it has a small tank.) Gas fill-ups were: Henderson NC; Biltmore Park (supper); Knoxville TN; Cleveland TN; Pittsburg TN (breakfast) and; Huntville AL. Knoxville-to-Cleveland measured 40 MPG @65 mph and Pittsburg-to-Huntsville 44 MPG @55 mph. Each stop added ~1.5 gallons for $3-5 and long enough for a potty break and fresh cup of coffee (or that warm brown liquid they call coffee.)

This is not a butt-buster, cross country car, as the maximum, practical long-range speed of 65 mph and with the small tank, the block-to-block speed would run about 50-55 mph. The top speed is 93 mph for a sprint drawing heavily on the battery but around town, it is awesome:


It has a 168 hp, rear-wheel drive, motor in a 2,900 lb carbon-fiber body on aluminum frame with 80 mile EV range. Charging at home, the BMW i3-REx runs about $0.25 per 10 miles (Huntsville utility rates.) In contrast, our 52 MPG, 2010 Prius runs about $0.37 per 10 miles (Huntsville regular gas prices.)

Best of all there are at least five, 'free' 240V @30A chargers that I use for brunch and after work beverages and take-out. As an experiment, I am finishing a week on 'free' chargers, over 300 miles, in my ordinary, daily driving. I'm driving around town for a week for free.

The BMW i3-REx is not a "road warrior" for those who want butt and bladder busting, +70 mph, highway driving. It can do 1,000 miles in 24 hours as I've already done in both our 2003 and 2010 Prius. Just BMW's 'briar patch' is city driving where the short wheel base, light weight, balanced weight, and high power really shine.

Bob Wilson

ps. If you can wait until September or later, the 2017, Level 2 ECO Prius with the Toyota safety package, TSS-P, will be a great ride with road-warrior capability.
Hey Bob
Thanks for the unbiased and straight forward review.
I keep EV in my mirror for potential future purchase, but the biggest limiting factor is the highway /distance driving as per how you highlighted with the I3

I'm curious to hear more about the city driving? Such as mpgs, braking feel, etc. Also, I know that you live in the hsv area, but how's the I3 in the snow?
I guessing it can't be the worst in the snow even though it's RWD, doesn't it have an lsd and the batteries over or near the drive tires?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Just one word of caution, there appears to be a persistent campaign by Ioniq fan-boys aimed at PriusChat.

Hopefully your moderators are putting the Ioniq fan-boys in a better corral. The Ioniq won't go on sale until April 2017 and their plug-in hybrid not until 6 to 12 months later. In the meanwhile, the Ioniq advocates are making themselves into proper 'Betaware' pests so I've started using personal filters to block the Ioniq-SPAM.
I haven't seen many people talking about the Ioniq here, that much. (That said, I don't find the Ioniq fans on PriusChat annoying...)

However, all signs are that the Ioniq will actually come to the US, whereas in the diesel community, many manufacturers have announced diesel products, and not shipped them... to the point that we have the mantra that it doesn't exist until it's on dealer lots.

Unless, that is, it's the Mazda SkyActiv-D, which Mazda's been teasing the American diesel community with for 6 years now. A lot of people here are convinced that it's not coming, but...
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
. . .
I keep EV in my mirror for potential future purchase, but the biggest limiting factor is the highway /distance driving as per how you highlighted with the I3

I'm curious to hear more about the city driving? Such as mpgs, braking feel, etc. Also, I know that you live in the hsv area, but how's the I3 in the snow?
I guessing it can't be the worst in the snow even though it's RWD, doesn't it have an lsd and the batteries over or near the drive tires?
. . .
Hi,

Well there have been some changes. A motor mount bolt broke on the BMW i3-REx. During repair, the 2010 Prius, my backup car, was replaced by a 2017 Prius Prime Plus (bottom trim.)

On Friday Dec 9 at 4 PM, the driver side, motor mount broke in traffic which aborted a planned, 1600 mi trip to Arizona. It took two weeks of warranty repair that replaced the ~1/2" fractured bolt with ~3/4" bolt and new mount hardware. The 2014 BMW i3-REx is the first model year of a new design so such things happen but it was out of service for two weeks and I had to use my fall-back, a 2016 Prius.

Over lunch, I test drove a Prius Prime Premium (middle trim) but it was not EV charged. I asked that it get charged for a second test drive. The next morning, the sales critter called,"I'm sorry Mr. Wilson but we sold that ($29.5k) . . . but we can get you another one for $36k." . . .

Within 24 hours, I found a Prius Prime Plus for $28.5k in Rhode Island and put a $500 deposit to hold it. I bought it Dec 28 and drove it 1200 miles home, 65-75 mph using dynamic cruise control, 21 hours, 55.7 MPG. The first tank, 600 miles. Second tank to fuel exhaustion, 699 miles, 11.4 gallons without EV miles. It has a 25 mile, EV range.

The first week of February, I drove the Prime in pure EV for 7 days, 301 miles. My work commute is 9 miles so at lunch time, I drove to free chargers within a mile from work and during an hour added 10 miles, completely covering the morning commute and trip to the charger.

I would leave work with 97-98% of the EV range on the car and drive to shopping centers with free chargers, ~6 miles from work, free EV miles. Then drive home with groceries, shirts, meds, or an after hour beverage. My EV cost for the day was ~6 mi, EV drive home.

This strategy works because of the placement of free chargers in Huntsville AL, the Prius Prime 25 mile EV range, and earlier practice using our BMW i3-REx. Another area, another plug-in car, and it might not work. Just I'm lucky in this case.

Both the Prius Prime and BMW i3-REx have:
  • dynamic cruise control and accident avoidance
  • 25 mi and 72 mi EV range
  • 55 MPG and 40 MPG highway mileage
  • Toyota reliability and history versus new to BMW technology
The Prius Prime means our BMW i3-REx manufacturer warranty will likely reach January 2019 because it won't get as many miles per month as before. Unlike the single-source, $130-160 each BMW i3 tires, the Prius Prime uses ordinary 15" tires from multiple vendors, $60-70 each. Each car backs up the other and the BMW i3-REx has the 2" receiver to carry my wife's wheelchair.

At age 67, I'm headed towards reduced, fixed, retirement income. Either car will keep fuel costs in control. But maintenance remains a concern and this particular BMW i3-REx has taught lessons.

Bob Wilson

ps. We had a recent discussion by Volt fan-boys about range and efficiency. To clear things up, I made this chart:

  • That is a log scale for miles so we can see the fine detail as well as the car range.
  • Volt has a 30-90 mile 'ring' where it out performs the Prius Prime
  • The Volt 'ring' does not exist for the BMW i3-REx
  • In range order, shortest to longest: BMW i3-REx, Volt, Prius Prime
Every buyer should look at their requirements and choose the ride that best meets their expectations. I'm happy with my BMW i3-REx and Prius Prime.
 
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VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
Great stats, Bob; especially 700 miles on 11.4 gallons of gas! :eek:
 

sandmansans

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Location
NJ/PA
TDI
2014 Jetta
Hi,

Well there have been some changes. A motor mount bolt broke on the BMW i3-REx. During repair, the 2010 Prius, my backup car, was replaced by a 2017 Prius Prime Plus (bottom trim.)

On Friday Dec 9 at 4 PM, the driver side, motor mount broke in traffic which aborted a planned, 1600 mi trip to Arizona. It took two weeks of warranty repair that replaced the ~1/2" fractured bolt with ~3/4" bolt and new mount hardware. The 2014 BMW i3-REx is the first model year of a new design so such things happen but it was out of service for two weeks and I had to use my fall-back, a 2016 Prius.

Over lunch, I test drove a Prius Prime Premium (middle trim) but it was not EV charged. I asked that it get charged for a second test drive. The next morning, the sales critter called,"I'm sorry Mr. Wilson but we sold that ($29.5k) . . . but we can get you another one for $36k." . . .

Within 24 hours, I found a Prius Prime Plus for $28.5k in Rhode Island and put a $500 deposit to hold it. I bought it Dec 28 and drove it 1200 miles home, 65-75 mph using dynamic cruise control, 21 hours, 55.7 MPG. The first tank, 600 miles. Second tank to fuel exhaustion, 699 miles, 11.4 gallons without EV miles. It has a 25 mile, EV range.

The first week of February, I drove the Prime in pure EV for 7 days, 301 miles. My work commute is 9 miles so at lunch time, I drove to free chargers within a mile from work and during an hour added 10 miles, completely covering the morning commute and trip to the charger.

I would leave work with 97-98% of the EV range on the car and drive to shopping centers with free chargers, ~6 miles from work, free EV miles. Then drive home with groceries, shirts, meds, or an after hour beverage. My EV cost for the day was ~6 mi, EV drive home.

This strategy works because of the placement of free chargers in Huntsville AL, the Prius Prime 25 mile EV range, and earlier practice using our BMW i3-REx. Another area, another plug-in car, and it might not work. Just I'm lucky in this case.

Both the Prius Prime and BMW i3-REx have:
  • dynamic cruise control and accident avoidance
  • 25 mi and 72 mi EV range
  • 55 MPG and 40 MPG highway mileage
  • Toyota reliability and history versus new to BMW technology
The Prius Prime means our BMW i3-REx manufacturer warranty will likely reach January 2019 because it won't get as many miles per month as before. Unlike the single-source, $130-160 each BMW i3 tires, the Prius Prime uses ordinary 15" tires from multiple vendors, $60-70 each. Each car backs up the other and the BMW i3-REx has the 2" receiver to carry my wife's wheelchair.

At age 67, I'm headed towards reduced, fixed, retirement income. Either car will keep fuel costs in control. But maintenance remains a concern and this particular BMW i3-REx has taught lessons.

Bob Wilson

ps. We had a recent discussion by Volt fan-boys about range and efficiency. To clear things up, I made this chart:

  • That is a log scale for miles so we can see the fine detail as well as the car range.
  • Volt has a 30-90 mile 'ring' where it out performs the Prius Prime
  • The Volt 'ring' does not exist for the BMW i3-REx
  • In range order, shortest to longest: BMW i3-REx, Volt, Prius Prime
Every buyer should look at their requirements and choose the ride that best meets their expectations. I'm happy with my BMW i3-REx and Prius Prime.
Awesome chart and impressive drive on that prius prime.

Just a thought, but I've wondered about this. Being that EV produced a lot of torque very fast, do you think that leads to parts breaking due to stress?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 

bwilson4web

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Location
Huntsville, AL
TDI
17 Prius Prime, 14 BMW i3-REx
An update, I'm trading-in our last, Prius, a Prius Prime plug-in:


Never having done a test drive, the car comes with a seven day, 1,000 mile, return policy. I've already planned test drives that will cover 650 miles in 2-3 days.

I'm keeping our BMW i3-REx as backup for our ordered, Standard Range Model 3 Tesla.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Aye. Now *that* is an upgrade. The availability of the standard model tipped the balance?

(Personally I'd skip autopilot and get the premium interior, but that's just me ... and it would have to be a long-range. At least Tesla gives you a choice in the matter)
 

gulfcoastguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
MS Gulfcoast
TDI
TDI sold, Mazda 3 purchased
My niece had this Prius Prime for a month and a half. A drunk driver in a 4 door pickup rear ended iWell it seems that this forum is not picture friendly. Any how it is the same color as the one shown and is crushed all the way to the back of the drivers seat.
 
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