DieselGreen Fuels tests B100 in 2009 Jetta TDI

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Neurot

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manny - the problem is that it's illegal because it's "tampering with an emissions system". It would be nice if there were a way to certify that you are using B100 and therefore your emissions are lower than what they are trying to accomplish with the DPF and D2. That is something I would like to see from a test lab - to test D2 with DPF, then remove the DPF, purge all diesel, then run B100 without it and test the emissions again.
 

Neurot

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Final Analysis

I went to San Francisco last weekend for the 2009 Sustainable Biodiesel Summit.
I gave a presentation on my experiences with B100 in my 2009 Jetta TDI (which were also summarized in biodieselSMARTER magazine).
We also invited Gary Parsons from Chevron to present about the Diesel Particulate Filter technology, which seems to be the problem in 2007.5 and later diesel vehicles. He gave a very deep technical presentation which was very eye opening and very sobering.
The problem with the DPF system is not the DPF itself, but the technology used to implement the regen cycle to clean out the crud. Ironically, the crud builds up only half as fast with B100, but that doesn't solve our problem.
The system employed by Volkswagen, and almost every other OEM today, is called "Late Post-Injection". During the exhaust stroke, some fuel is squirted into the cylinder, which is then vaporized and sent down the exhaust stream. The theory is that it will combust, burning off the crud in the DPF.
The problem is, some of the fuel (ANY fuel) gets down into the crankcase and mixes with the oil. When using regular diesel, this not a big problem because it has a relatively low evaporative point. That means it evaporates out and exits through the positive crankcase ventilation system. It is a known issue that this happens even with diesel, but is not considered a major issue as long as normal oil change intervals are observed.
Furthermore, Gary described in great detail the level of interaction between fuel system, lubrication system, and emissions system that modern vehicles have. He showed charts of permissible emissions and how that "ever-shrinking box" of allowed emissions has increased the level of coordination between the various companies. For example, engine oil manufacturers designing oil for 2007+ vehicles must make their oil withstand the various types of acid that build up in engine oil now that all the sulfur is gone (sulfuric acid used to be the big problem with regular and LSD).
Here comes the problem: with biodiesel having a much higher evaporative point, the amount that gets in the engine oil STAYS there. This has a side effect of making the blend of biodiesel in the engine oil much higher over time - they showed a test where someone fueling with B5 was shown to have B40 in the engine oil. And because biodiesel is even more "polar" than some of the lubricating agents in engine oil, it displaces them, increasing wear over time as the oil breaks down. There has been no long term studies done on this, but if you're expecting the engine to last 500k miles and it only last 300k, that's still a problem.
So, the conclusion: VW has built a system that is simply not compatible with high-blend biodiesel. The engine has no trouble with it, but the emissions system is highly dependent on having the properties of D2 as the DPF regen catalyst.
Where does this leave us? As a group of people wanting to use the highest possible blend of biodiesel - very disappointed. Further testing of real world oil samples may find an optimal blend level, or an acceptable oil change interval. Working around this issue is possible with the effort of many over a long period of time. SOLVING this problem is possible with the OEMs redesigning their systems to not use this technology (which is really no technology at all, but a cheap way out of redesigning the system by just reprogramming the injector system). Caterpillar is already using a different system, which has been shown to work great with biodiesel. The problem is it's prohibitively expensive ($7000 per big truck). It's possible that the engineers at VW can work on a solution that is affordable for smaller passenger vehicles.
Although I'm extremely disappointed in the results, I'm glad to report a lot of lessons learned and other positive outcomes:
I discovered that TDIClub is NOT the place to discuss alternative fuels. I'll be discussing things like this on the Infopop forum in the future, and perhaps posting a link here to there if it's warranted. That may reduce the troll-to-signal ratio.
I learned that the new 2009 engine works just fine with B100, just like all the other VW's out there. Once they re-engineer the emissions system, VW will be back on my radar.
Kumar Plocher, of Yokayo Biofuels, started a letter-writing campaign to the major OEM's urging them to work on an emissions system that is fuel-neutral, or as close as possible.
Shared the stage with a major oil company to discuss the issue in front of my peers and hundreds of interested parties. By raising this issue to a national level, I was able to get people thinking about something that hardly anyone knew about just a few months ago.
Learned a LOT about modern emissions systems and what may be coming down the road in years to come.
Became even more sure that the B100 market will eventually begin to shrink. Companies like mine will have to adapt to this new reality and work to get biodiesel mandates and to integrate low blends into the mainstream. High blends will always be there for the educated and dedicated crowd, but unlikely in the numbers that so many of us had hoped for. I thought we'd have an Accord diesel, Toyota Tundra diesel, Nissan Titan diesel, and a bunch of 1/2 ton diesel pickups in 2009. With none of those materializing yet, we can only hope that their development cycles will be long enough to allow for this emission-system incompatibility issue to be acknowledged and corrected by the OEM's.
For anyone who would like to see the outstanding presentation by Gary Parsons of Chevron, it is posted here.
The Jetta used in my testing was powered by B100 for about 2500 miles, then it got cold so I dropped down to B50. Once I learned that it would not work with B100 for the long-term, I dropped to B5. Now I'm selling the Jetta (see my ad in the classified section) for $23,000. It is still under full manufacturer's warranty.
Thanks to all that contributed in a positive manner. I'd be happy to answer any additional questions, but please spare us negative comments. I hope that my testing has contributed something to TDIClub, and although I don't see myself using this site much more in the future, perhaps there will be a changing of the guard at some point, less trolling in the alt fuels forums, and more advocacy of non-petroleum fuels.
 

rosycrown

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Thank you Jason

I appreciate being able to follow your trial with the Jetta 2009. If not for you I might have actual purchased this car. You did me a great service.

You just may find you are wrong about a trend toward lower blends. There isn't time to make slow changes anymore and more and more people are becoming aware of it.

While you were getting discouraged at the Biodiesel conference, I went to a program on the disappearance of pollinators and renewed my determination to educate people on why their choice of fuel is so important.

Jason, Don't give up. don't change you convictions. or your business plan.

The next couple of years will bring great changes. Maybe not because we suddenly develop ethics but because we have no choice. Biodiesel is the only real option that we have. (I'm ready for the six detractors that will jump up and down because I said that)

Albert Einstien told us many years ago that once the bees are gone the human race only has about 4 more years. The acidification of the environment has already cut the bee population in half worldwide. Time is short.

This is also my last post on this forum. I have a low tolerance for nonsense. I'll check in at infopop and keep track of your progress. I also noticed that Micheal Briggs is posting at Biodieselnow so I will check in there periodically as well.

Jason, you are on the cutting edge of our future. Hang in there and continue what you've started. You are part of what is going right in the world.

With Gratitude
Best Regards,
Rose
 
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conejo_a_cuatro

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Maaaan. I'm really sorry to see you go, you took one for the team, that's for sure. I'm also sorry that I won't be able to buy a VW for the foreseeable future. I'll just keep this one going (unless I find a 2003 at some point!). My Golf has been my favorite car to date, and I hope to keep it going for a long time, but it's a shame that there's no upgrade path for the future. Thanks for all of your research and testing!
 

quantum_tdi

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sorry to hear you're giving up Jason. I'm picking up an '03 wagon this week for some of the same reasons. I know the ALH engines do great on B100 and just don't want to be a tester for new tech just now.

To a certain extent, many car companies make the same claim. Unless they can assure quality of biodiesel in the marketplace, they'll continue to shy away from even considering the use of it. And why shouldn't they? Look at how highly controlled diesel fuel is compared to biodiesel. I see many people in the biodiesel world clamoring for acceptance, but I don't see those same people hammering on the biodiesel world to get its act together and force higher quality standards (BQ-9000 and/or another higher quality standard with sustainability requirements). Are the requirements strict and possibly too much for some shoestring budget companies? Maybe. Are the car makers going to accept biodiesel otherwise? Not on your life.

Will any of that make late post-injection work? No. But will it make manufacturers take another look at biodiesel and alternative regen techniques? Perhaps.

I'll be interested to talk with jsrmonster to see if he has any insight as to what chip tuning could do in minimizing the late injection. There is some possibility for aftermarket changes that would not be painfully expensive to implement...

As I said at the summit, I am still interested in collecting warranty stories in a central repository somewhere. Maybe the infopop forum is a better place for it.

I am concerned about misuse regarding use of our i-Spec or other equipment used for confirming biodiesel blend in denying warranty claims.

I will personally get on the phone and educate mechanics that don't understand biodiesel, the use of it in modern diesels, or the things that are still covered under warranty regardless of biodiesel use.

Kyle Capizzi
Operations Manager
Paradigm Sensors
www.paradigmsensors.com
 
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Harvieux

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Jason, every single technical determination that was presented to you by Gary Parsons of Chevron at this conference was previously presented to this venue by myself and others as a result of research. You and many others did not want to listen so, on went the blinders resulting in your perception that "how dare we interject". You even go as far as attempting to silence us by demanding that negative posts need not apply along with referring to such as trolling.:rolleyes:

I as well as many others here truly thank you for your participation and research however, some of us can really see through the close minded bioD or die mindset some seem to have and I felt it was my duty to quash it with facts such as was the case here all along.

I find it hilarious that you now determine that the tdiclub is not the place to discuss alternative fuels. Lemme guess, you couldn't stop thinking of wanting to throw cream pies at Gary Parsons during his presentation, right?:rolleyes: May I respectfully suggest that if you ever do return to this venue, do so with the blinders off and listen to those in the know? Later!
 

NoSmoke

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Neurot said:
Willis - the amount of fuel used at the regen is so small that you'd have to purge all the regular fuel out of the system before jumping to the D2 tank, do the little squirt, then go back to the other fuel. a better system is to use an injector right before the DPF, which doesn't cause the oil dilution problem, and have a second tank set up with D2 to squirt in there, instead of using the main tank. That is exactly how Catepillar does it (although they use the main diesel tank), and there is no problem with biodiesel. Unfortunately, the cost is $7000 - $10,000 for that kind of system, so it would be cost prohibitive to install in a passenger vehicle.

Is it just me or is any one else having problems understanding why installation of a separate injector (right before the DPF) would be so expensive? It would seem a simple, electrically driven low pressure pump with some sort of flow control device would be all that's required (much more complicated than the windshield washer pump?).
 

Harvieux

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NoSmoke said:
Is it just me or is any one else having problems understanding why installation of a separate injector (right before the DPF) would be so expensive? It would seem a simple, electrically driven low pressure pump with some sort of flow control device would be all that's required (much more complicated than the windshield washer pump?).
This has also been discussed here. I had the distinct opportunity of speaking one on one with a prominant design engineer from VWAG at the recent Baja 1000 race in Ensenada, Mexico. Trust me, there are many varibles that make your assumption that such a system would be cheap and easy to do not so. Later!

Reference post #64 here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=226834&page=5
 
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vwrobert51

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just like we perdicted, no one wanted to listen when we in the know stated that bio is not to be used in 2009 TDIS. well now its been proven! thanks harvieux, for your support. and others on this side of the issue. now on with the show.
 

MethylEster

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Does anyone know if a ASTM lubricating wear test has been done with various amounts of biodiesel dilution ?

At what level of dilution does an increase in wear become a concern ?

Knowing the above you could intelligently adjust your oil change interval to avoid any lubrication problems.

I believe this would apply the KISS principle to this whole matter.

Also a valid testing procedure would be needed to determine exactly what the % of biodiesel is truly in the engine oil.
 

UFO

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Jason, I'm sorry that you seem to interpret some objectivity as "negative". There is a bit of trolling here, and thick skins are necessary, but I have to agree with some regarding the polarization and blinders of some biofuels advocates here. Don't get me wrong -- I am one of the strongest proponents of biodiesel here, but for any substantive forward movement it's got to be reality-based.
 

NoSmoke

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Harvieux said:
This has also been discussed here. I had the distinct opportunity of speaking one on one with a prominant design engineer from VWAG at the recent Baja 1000 race in Ensenada, Mexico. Trust me, there are many varibles that make your assumption that such a system would be cheap and easy to do not so. Later!

Reference post #64 here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=226834&page=5
Is this the post to which you are referring?

-------------------------------------------------------------

"I don't know if this has been completely covered as of yet but, I thought I would mention that I spoke to one of the VWAG engineers on Thursday in Ensenada Mexico while I was assisting in performing the 2008 Baja 1000 pre-race inspection on VW's new V-12 TDI Toureg (actually Audi's engine) as a SCORE Internationl technical official. (I will do a thread in TDI Motorsports with pictures as time allows).;)

I asked this engineer what exactly triggers the DPF regen. in the new CR. He says there are four (4) factors. (1) pressure sensors in the DPF. (2) mileage traveled. (3) metered fuel flow. (4) temperature pre and post DPF. I think most of us were pretty right on in our assumptions here, eh? ;)

I also asked about a seperate fuel injection system as opposed to the current post-injection process even though we/I knew it would be cost prohibitive. He says such a system may not be reliable for the over 120K miles or so due to possible exposure to elements along with the possibility of accumulating condensation in the fuel path to this DPF injector system due to the possible length of time between regens. Later!"

-----------------------------------------------------------

If so, it doesn't address any specfic cost issues. I'd be interested in more detail if you can provide it.

As to to condensation in the fuel path, why not route the existing fuel line directly past the injection pump and/or, do a brief regen, if it's been too long, to flush the pump?
 

alnmike

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Exposure to the elements for an injector can be solved by a simple metal flap that's opened with a solenoid and then fuel is injected. The injector can be as simple as a fuel line with a valve. Or does the fuel need to be atomized? I thought the fuel just sticks to the dpf and causes heat to burn off soot. If it combusts prior to the dpf then an actual injector would have to be used. I'd be willing to use a little more fuel every 300 miles to use bio. A fuel line can't have more than a fraction of an ounce of water could it?
 

Harvieux

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NoSmoke said:
Is this the post to which you are referring?

-------------------------------------------------------------

"I don't know if this has been completely covered as of yet but, I thought I would mention that I spoke to one of the VWAG engineers on Thursday in Ensenada Mexico while I was assisting in performing the 2008 Baja 1000 pre-race inspection on VW's new V-12 TDI Toureg (actually Audi's engine) as a SCORE Internationl technical official. (I will do a thread in TDI Motorsports with pictures as time allows).;)

I asked this engineer what exactly triggers the DPF regen. in the new CR. He says there are four (4) factors. (1) pressure sensors in the DPF. (2) mileage traveled. (3) metered fuel flow. (4) temperature pre and post DPF. I think most of us were pretty right on in our assumptions here, eh? ;)

I also asked about a seperate fuel injection system as opposed to the current post-injection process even though we/I knew it would be cost prohibitive. He says such a system may not be reliable for the over 120K miles or so due to possible exposure to elements along with the possibility of accumulating condensation in the fuel path to this DPF injector system due to the possible length of time between regens. Later!"

-----------------------------------------------------------

If so, it doesn't address any specfic cost issues. I'd be interested in more detail if you can provide it.

As to to condensation in the fuel path, why not route the existing fuel line directly past the injection pump and/or, do a brief regen, if it's been too long, to flush the pump?
BINGO! As not to confuse some not in the know. The 120K mile reference is what the EPA requires regarding self sufficient longevity of emissions devices or at least that's what it was awhile back when the urea injection process was initially being discussed here. Later!
 
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darkscout

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alnmike said:
Exposure to the elements for an injector can be solved by a simple metal flap that's opened with a solenoid and then fuel is injected. The injector can be as simple as a fuel line with a valve. Or does the fuel need to be atomized? I thought the fuel just sticks to the dpf and causes heat to burn off soot. If it combusts prior to the dpf then an actual injector would have to be used. I'd be willing to use a little more fuel every 300 miles to use bio. A fuel line can't have more than a fraction of an ounce of water could it?
That extra flap and solenoid would be a nightmare. KISS = Reliability. What if the solenoid fails? And how do you propose getting fuel to the injector? The front of an engine block is relatively fixed and doesn't bend/move. If you run the line to the back of the engine to a part that is only bolted on to the head there could be vibrations and minimal displacements between the two. So any hardlines could fatigue and break (and who wants a fuel at a few MPa spraying around your engine bay?) So you're going to need to do parts validation on a steel braided hose that can withstand the vibration to the back of the turbo (and can hold a few MPa of diesel) and not negatively affect the fuel rail. Not to mention the diesel that is at the end of that fuel line is going to be stagnant and sitting in the exhaust line. How do you keep that injector clean? Some systems are using a purge air pump where you reroute boost to blow through the injector so that your injector doesn't gum up in between your 300 mi regens. If you already have 4 perfectly good injectors that are running all the time, why not use those? Who knows how much IO the ECM has, you may need a more complex ($$) ECM to drive that extra Injector.

And the fuel needs to be atomized. Otherwise it'll just follow the pipes. The Atomized fuel needs to hit the DOC to heat up. If you pour a liquid on it it'll only stick on the bottom and not hit the entire face of the DOC so only part of the DPF would get regened.

Word on the street is that Cummins was having problems with their 2007 trucks that had vertical DOC/DPFs in cold weather because the atomized fuel would hit that 90 degree bend and condense. Meaning that you would now have diesel fuel pooling on the bottom of your exhaust pipe. The hydrocarbons that could would evaporate and you'd be left with a very sticky mess.

Cat uses a radically different system (think of a forced air kerosene heater) but would be cost prohibitive in the automotive industry.
 

NoSmoke

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alnmike said:
Exposure to the elements for an injector can be solved by a simple metal flap that's opened with a solenoid and then fuel is injected. The injector can be as simple as a fuel line with a valve. Or does the fuel need to be atomized? I thought the fuel just sticks to the dpf and causes heat to burn off soot. If it combusts prior to the dpf then an actual injector would have to be used. I'd be willing to use a little more fuel every 300 miles to use bio. A fuel line can't have more than a fraction of an ounce of water could it?
In any case, how 'bout simply installing an injector, similar or the same as the cylinder injectors, in the exhaust manifold? Connect it to the common rail and program the ECU to squirt as required.
 

Harvieux

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alnmike said:
Exposure to the elements for an injector can be solved by a simple metal flap that's opened with a solenoid and then fuel is injected. The injector can be as simple as a fuel line with a valve. Or does the fuel need to be atomized? I thought the fuel just sticks to the dpf and causes heat to burn off soot. If it combusts prior to the dpf then an actual injector would have to be used. I'd be willing to use a little more fuel every 300 miles to use bio. A fuel line can't have more than a fraction of an ounce of water could it?
I don't know what would be a viable alternative injection system for the DPF but, I asked this point blank question as specified and his answer was what it was. Let me speculate with regard to the condensation he referred to in the post injection fuel line. Couldn't that minute condensation possibly restrict fuel flow in frigid weather or would it even cost more than your estimate of $300 to incorporate some sort of fuel line heater? Now, we could use the heated fuel return line fuel but then again, we now have additional costs involved here as well with another solenoid/wiring and harness and will this fuel stay heated for maybe 8-10 feet of travel to the DPF injector in say, -40 degree weather? I can also speculate that some sort of fuel atomization may be necessary as well which you brought up and makes sense because the current cumbustion chamber post injection fuel is atomized B4 it gets to the DPF. Then we need to times this total cost by the number of TDIs VW produces which would result in a huge number for such a tiny and possibly insignificant demand comparatively. You know, I would love to have one of those phoney spare tires mounted on the trunk of my TDI for that old time look but, somehow I think the demand for such an option would be a bit overboard and could quite possibly be a cost prohibitive offering. Know whadda mean? ;) Later!
 

alnmike

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A forced air system is waaaay more complicated than a solenoid that gets activated every 300 miles. My paintball markers have sufficiently strong solonoids that are designed to cycle 30 times per second for years of use. If using them for 5 seconds every 300 miles is more of a reliability drain then I'm missing something. There's nothing simpler than magnets and electricity.

A low pressure injector can be had, if it runs for 10 minutes, so what? It's the amount of fuel delivered to the air. As far as cold Temps, you shouldn't be running high blends of bio in neg 40 degree weather. If your not running bio, then have the post injection. The return line is indeed heated, and I'm sure it's not -40 inches away from the exaust pipes.
As far as vibration is concerned, there's no more stresses than the exhaust itself faces, use whatever lines that they use to inject urea if fuel lines are insufficient.
 

darkscout

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alnmike said:
A forced air system is waaaay more complicated than a solenoid that gets activated every 300 miles. My paintball markers have sufficiently strong solonoids that are designed to cycle 30 times per second for years of use. If using them for 5 seconds every 300 miles is more of a reliability drain then I'm missing something. There's nothing simpler than magnets and electricity.
Other than when you melt the goo out of the solenoid. Your paintball marker lives in a wonderful environment of room temp give or take. You're also blowing CO2 over a ball through a nozzle probably a hundred times larger than an injector. The worst 'problem' you have is when a ball breaks.

Get a gallon of D2 and set it on a pot on a stove (outside) and wait until you boil off all the lighter hydrocarbons and see what you're left with as a sticky goo.

A low pressure injector can be had, if it runs for 10 minutes, so what? It's the amount of fuel delivered to the air. As far as cold Temps, you shouldn't be running high blends of bio in neg 40 degree weather. If your not running bio, then have the post injection. The return line is indeed heated, and I'm sure it's not -40 inches away from the exaust pipes.
As far as vibration is concerned, there's no more stresses than the exhaust itself faces, use whatever lines that they use to inject urea if fuel lines are insufficient.
So now that you have a 'low pressure' injector you propose adding a new low pressure pump to the system? (Unless you want to add the stress onto the already-failing-in-the-field Lift Pumps). Plus you now have a new strategy of "Am I running Bio or Not" and "Is it cold or not". Since we can't trust the public to flip the switch on Bio correctly, we need a new "BioD" sensor in the tank to determine if we're running bio. So on top of the new ECM (with more IO), the BioD sensor, the injector, separate lines and a pump we're adding 1-3k to the price of a car so that 5% of the population can run a fuel through it?

And take a look at the size of your exhaust manifold and flex joints. While it may not experience more stress than the exhaust manifold, the manifold is built to take it.

Urea is salt water more or less.
 
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Harvieux

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alnmike said:
A forced air system is waaaay more complicated than a solenoid that gets activated every 300 miles. My paintball markers have sufficiently strong solonoids that are designed to cycle 30 times per second for years of use. If using them for 5 seconds every 300 miles is more of a reliability drain then I'm missing something. There's nothing simpler than magnets and electricity.

A low pressure injector can be had, if it runs for 10 minutes, so what? It's the amount of fuel delivered to the air. As far as cold Temps, you shouldn't be running high blends of bio in neg 40 degree weather. If your not running bio, then have the post injection. The return line is indeed heated, and I'm sure it's not -40 inches away from the exaust pipes.
As far as vibration is concerned, there's no more stresses than the exhaust itself faces, use whatever lines that they use to inject urea if fuel lines are insufficient.
Sounds like you got it all figured out and are a much better engineer than the VWAG one I spoke to regarding this issue.

I say, have at it! Go into the ECU and eliminate the current post injection activation map(s) and then enter your new injector solenoid commencing map(s). Tap into the fuel rail or tee off where necessary with your inexpensive solenoid assembly and inexpensive, high pressure piezo or conventional injector delivering perfectly atomized fuel properly timed to work in conjunction with all the other sensors and having performed documented acceleration testing data for a service life of 120K+ miles.:rolleyes: You gotta love this place, eh? Later!
 

UFO

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Sounds to me VWAG just wanted to save the cost of an extra fuel injector and plumbing, and "fix" the regeneration problem with software. Biodiesel fuel dilution was not an issue on the radar.
 

alnmike

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Harv, how is tuning any harder than what I propose?
Dark, solonoids are made out of metal (at least the ones in my markers) and magnets, with a little lubrication. Yes, it is room temp, and you are not talking about the same thing I am talking about. I use solenoids on my markers to activate a mechanical lever, not the ones that they use on high end markers, the solenoids themselves dont flow gasses, just use electrical current through an electromagnet to attract a magnet thats attatched to a steel rod that moves a lever.

Here is a picture of what I came up with in 5 minutes reading this post.
Now that there are no mis-communications with what I am talking about, please shoot holes through it, let me find ways to patch those holes, and we have something called a design process going on. :)

 

alnmike

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Also, i doubt the fuel pressure in the heated excess fuel return lines to the tank are pressurized to 2000 bar or whatnot. Tap into that line, use whatever nozzles it takes to get spray at whatever pressure that line is at.

People go through so much trouble to use dual tanks, ect. for veggy oil, a tune to allow bioD isnt so far off. I dont even have access to BioD, but im willing to put any skills I can bring to the table to find a solution for people like Neurot.

Edit: As for the running bio or not, cold or not statement;
If your running b100 and its -40, the fuel no longer flows and your stranded am I not correct? A secondary injector using the same fuel that flows in the lines anyway (if it wont flow, then the car doesnt run) wont be dependent on anything except if the car is able to run or not.

Edit, Edit:
I am not an engineer, I dont think im smarter than VW engineers. I am currently getting an education to become an engineer though, and if no one ever tried thinking about problems outside their expertise, then our society would be out of alot of cool stuff. Wright brothers should have stuck with bicycles.
 
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darkscout

Grammar Scout
Joined
May 28, 2006
Location
Michigan
TDI
2003 Golf
alnmike said:
Dark, solonoids are made out of metal (at least the ones in my markers)
Solenoids are a tightly wrapped coil in a non-conductive medium put inside of a metal housing. Short any of your solenoids to 12V 10A and wait about 10 minutes. That 'non-conductive medium' will goo out and you will have a dead solenoid.

And yes I am talking about the same thing you're talking about and I know exactly what you were talking about. I have one sitting on my desk right now as a paper weight. Solenoids do not like much heat. People do what is necessary to keep them on the cold side of the engine.

alnmike said:
Here is a picture of what I came up with in 5 minutes reading this post.
Now that there are no mis-communications with what I am talking about, please shoot holes through it, let me find ways to patch those holes, and we have something called a design process going on. :)

SOLENOIDS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY.

You may be able to get 1/2" of travel out of a solenoid of that size (and that's stretching it) You're not going to be using it to actually move anything.

You still haven't solved any of the issues that I brought up. So now instead of just being exposed to exhaust gasses, you're going to pull the injector out into the 'world'. In addition to gummed up injectors you're going to have ones that are coated in road salt and grime.

Take a look at your exhaust system between your head and the end of the car. Do you notice any holes in it? That little mechanism is just crying to leak exhaust gasses. So you may be able to seal it up for a short amount of time, but over time you're going to get just a sliver of air escaping. Then a bit more, then you have a full out exhaust leak around that injector that 'drops down' into the exhaust stream.

After taking a few minutes to analyze it, I came up with this:


alnmike said:
Also, i doubt the fuel pressure in the heated excess fuel return lines to the tank are pressurized to 2000 bar or whatnot. Tap into that line, use whatever nozzles it takes to get spray at whatever pressure that line is at.
Exactly, it's not at pressure. So you're not going to get much atomization at all. Take a garden hose.
Put a good sprayer on it: That's what's going into your cylinders.
Now crank back the flow (pressure) and it'll just dribble out. Not exactly the sort of stuff you want pooling in your exhaust.
 

Harvieux

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Aug 15, 1998
Location
Whittier,CA-USA
TDI
06 A5 Pkg.2 w/navi & ASEP
UFO said:
Sounds to me VWAG just wanted to save the cost of an extra fuel injector and plumbing, and "fix" the regeneration problem with software. Biodiesel fuel dilution was not an issue on the radar.
All righty now, once and for all let's go over the reasons VW elected to go the current DPF regeneration process.
  • Ease of ECU to piezo injector timing implementation off uniform rail pressure to cylinder at appropriate moment in the exhaust stroke.
  • Little to no additional costs over and above the already high cost of the current emissions devices which resulted in a decontented vehicle over it's predecessor in regards to standard equipment, options, and warranty.
  • VW engineers felt a seperate non-combustion chamber post-injection system assembly may be suspect to reliability issues.
  • The annual amount of commercially produced bioD along with the amount of people actually using bioD is insignificant comparatively regarding overall demand.
Some may want to do the Ben Franklin comparison by listing to pros and cons of this but, I think passion may get in the way and skewer the results. Know whadda mean? Later!
 

UFO

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Location
A mile high
TDI
2001 Beetle
Harvieux said:
All righty now, once and for all let's go over the reasons VW elected to go the current DPF regeneration process.
  • Ease of ECU to piezo injector timing implementation off uniform rail pressure to cylinder at appropriate moment in the exhaust stroke.
  • Little to no additional costs over and above the already high cost of the current emissions devices which resulted in a decontented vehicle over it's predecessor in regards to standard equipment, options, and warranty.
  • VW engineers felt a seperate non-combustion chamber post-injection system assembly may be suspect to reliability issues.
  • The annual amount of commercially produced bioD along with the amount of people actually using bioD is insignificant comparatively regarding overall demand.
Some may want to do the Ben Franklin comparison by listing to pros and cons of this but, I think passion may get in the way and skewer the results. Know whadda mean? Later!
This has been posted already, and says exactly how I summed it up, in layman's terms. It costs more to accommodate biodiesel, so screw it. Not a very progressive attitude.

And alnmike, your idea is absolutely right on that it can work; it is the obvious answer to accommodate biodiesel, but it probably adds another $50 to the cost of the vehicle. Too bad VWAG does not recognize the value of branding their vehicles B100 compatible. It would more than offset the extra regen equipment cost, even if most people can't or don't use it. Look at GM and all that bs about "flexfuel", same thing.
 

alnmike

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Location
Alaska
TDI
09
Ok, first of all, your alteration of my picture was hilarious. :)
1) The injector while not inside the exhaust flow will be in its own enclosure, thereby allowing no exhaust leaks or contaminants into the nozzle, there will be holes with wires and the fuel line, but thats not an issue.
2) Non conductive median, Ive seen plastics and resins that can withstand alot more heat than what were talking about here, and thats non conductive. Im sorry for not thinking that you knew what I was talking about, just had to make sure.
3) Exactly what kind of atomization is needed? Without knowing that, its really just a guestimate anyway.
I doubt that the solenoid in my marker is drawing 10 amps from a 9 volt battery for thousands of shots.
I also know for a fact that the solenoid in my marker is actually very strong, it acts against a spring which I find very hard to press down with my thumb at the same point of contact.
How many injector holes does it take to fill a half inch vertically? Times that by however many you need horizontally and you can pretty much squeeze out as much fuel as it takes to run the engine in the first place.
Also, with biodiesel, regen happen less frequently, so thats even less wear on all additional parts, and less wear to the engine from previously discussed reasons. Also, another reason to have to get a tune.

Harv: I understand why VW didn't do it. I don't understand why a BioD user wouldnt do it if they already take more PITA ways to run bioD?
Where theres a will, theres a way. Im trying to find that way. If it ends up being $600, thats fine, its up to the individual person to do it, I wont be doing it, but I want control of my property, the ability to be able to is enough for me.

VW didn't find a need to place a steel skid plate under the car. People decided to design one because they felt a need.
If you run over ice chunks on the highway alot, it might be worthwhile for you to buy a skidplate.
If you run BioD in a new car, you might want to fix VW oversights by implementing some type of system.
To those who say just get an older car, I say, that limits my decisions.
I would rather get a new car and modify it legally, rather than get a new car and rip off the DPF anyway (we all know thats not accepted on this website), so I want to find an alternative.

I know how you feel about 09's vs 06's and earlier. I just bought an 09, should start its trucking journey from Chris in PA to seattle hopefully today or tomorrow. If I want to use Bio, id much rather spend 2-700 or whatever it will end up being, than buying a used car for 10 grand, and putting more than 700 in repairs anyway just because its not brand new.
If you tune it, they will come.
 
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darkscout

Grammar Scout
Joined
May 28, 2006
Location
Michigan
TDI
2003 Golf
UFO said:
And alnmike, your idea is absolutely right on that it can work; it is the obvious answer to accommodate biodiesel, but it probably adds another $50 to the cost of the vehicle. Too bad VWAG does not recognize the value of branding their vehicles B100 compatible.
$50? In what world are you smoking what. $1k *minimum*. Go price 1 injector.

alnmike said:
1) The injector while not inside the exhaust flow will be in its own enclosure, thereby allowing no exhaust leaks or contaminants into the nozzle, there will be holes with wires and the fuel line, but thats not an issue.
How is it no issue? Any place that the wires go 'in' is a leak path. Wires do not live for 120k in the exhaust stream. (Or exposed to exhaust temps). So now instead of a straight pipe you can make on a simple mandrel machine you have a pipe on which you weld a little 'enclosure' and then you cut out a piece of the exhaust pipe and turn it into a hinged assembly. You're easily adding an hour or more to the assembly line.

Design For Manufacturability is a great class.

2) Non conductive median, Ive seen plastics and resins that can withstand alot more heat than what were talking about here, and thats non conductive. Im sorry for not thinking that you knew what I was talking about, just had to make sure.
Exotic materials = expensive solenoid. You're already over complicating this with the "drop this into the exhaust stream to inject fuel" it's already Rube Goldberg-ish enough.


3) Exactly what kind of atomization is needed? Without knowing that, its really just a guestimate anyway.
Complete atomization. Do you even know how the DOC and DPF regeneration process work? You need the fuel to hit the DOC as evenly as possible.

I doubt that the solenoid in my marker is drawing 10 amps from a 9 volt battery for thousands of shots.
Who said it was? Most batteries are measured in mA range.


I also know for a fact that the solenoid in my marker is actually very strong, it acts against a spring which I find very hard to press down with my thumb at the same point of contact.
Strength is not an issue. It's an issue of displacement. You're not going to get a solenoid that does what you think you want it to do. The solenoid could activate some hydraulic valve to do your whole contraption, but again. Way too complicated: KISS.

How many injector holes does it take to fill a half inch vertically? Times that by however many you need horizontally and you can pretty much squeeze out as much fuel as it takes to run the engine in the first place.
You lost me. You want to fill the exhaust stream with a grid of injectors?

Harv: I understand why VW didn't do it. I don't understand why a BioD user wouldnt do it if they already take more PITA ways to run bioD?
Where theres a will, theres a way. Im trying to find that way. If it ends up being $600, thats fine, its up to the individual person to do it, I wont be doing it, but I want control of my property, the ability to be able to is enough for me.
$1k minimum. Less parts to validate, less parts to fail, trouble shooting is faster. The list goes on. It's going to start looking like a greasecar with all these mods.
 
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