Puebla
Veteran Member
Re: \"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"
-- The only reason Porsche built an SUV, is because Volkswagen was already in the early production phases of the Touareg and Porsche saw that alot of Porsche owners were buying BMW, Mercedes Benz and Audi SUV's. Porsche owners pleaded, beckoned and hounded Porsche execs to build an SUV, Porsche was not interested at first. Porsche needed another German automaker to share the blame if the vehicle flopped, eg. Porsche 924,928,944,951,968, etc. etc.
Porsche owners are a finicky crowd, the first rule of thumb is: A real Porsche is rear powered. Porsche didn't want to experience the same humiliation that GM experienced with the Pontiac Aztek. German manufacturers do not recover as well after a vehicle flops. eg. Audi in the early 1990's...
The only reason Porsche would build a diesel powered vehicle is to meet (Deutsches Institut für Normung) DIN standards.
Link: http://www2.din.de/
Any attempt by Porsche to build a diesel powered production vehicle should be looked at suspiciously. Any attempt would be a half @ssed and ill hearted attempt, more so if Porsche decides to use a powerplant other than the VW 5.0 L V10. There are alot of government grants and alot of hearts to be won, especially in Europe, if Porsche would go diesel. Any attempt would definitely have hidden agendas and would be ill hearted.
I never suggested that Porsche should look at building diesel sports cars. Commentators in Panorama have lamented Porsche's blind eye toward a diesel Cayenne. I don't know what percentage of Porsche people would actually buy one, but I'm sure many would see the advantages of a diesel powered SUV.I myself have owned 2 Porsches, a European (944/951) and a 1994 Porsche 911 C4 Turbo. Both those vehicles were driven hard and thrashed upon at the local race courses. And by the way, you couldn't count on one hand POC members that would "buy" a diesel powered Porsche. They may "want" one, however the distance between "want" and "buy" is a great one, and mustn't overlook ones pocketbook.
You're welcome.If most people are ashamed of shabby clothes and shoddy furniture, let us be more ashamed of shabby ideas and shoddy philosophies.......
Very few souls are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions. Thanks a million for the last comment Tin Man.
Well, I just saw that the old engine is banned in California. By EPA. After all, the 5-liter V10 was presented already in 2001 before new High tech was known.The Porsche Cayenne and the VW Touareg interchange @ 77% of their parts. If Porsche was interested in a turbodiesel, they'd dive headfirst into the Twin Turboed 5.0 L V10 that Volkswagen poured alot of sweat, reputation and R&D into.
Ah...but I will easily pass them both when they have to stop for gasoline! (Same for the W12!)The Cayenne Turbo is faster, but more expensive (than the BMW x5 4.8IS)...
Ah...but I will easily pass them both when they have to stop for gasoline! (Same for the W12!)The Cayenne Turbo is faster, but more expensive (than the BMW x5 4.8IS)...
Seriously though...I've not measured 0-60 times in my V10, but there are a couple of others that have and show 0-60 @ 6.2 seconds. The acceleration is pretty incredible, but the really "odd" thing is the sound the truck makes as the engine pounds through the gears...
As you might expect, the V10 TDI sounds nothing like the throaty roar of a similarly taxed V8. My friend (who was driving a Mustang convertable) said it was the scariest thing he's ever heard overtake him. He described it as a "screaming freight train straight from hell."
Unfortunately, I don't have any sound clips of the engine from outside the vehicle when I'm pushing it - and it's pretty quiet on the inside.Oooh Oohh, how's about some sound/vid clips?
Uh yeah,uh huh. First the Cayenne comes out with a Diesel version, now an oil-burning Panamera 4-door sedan has been confirmed.\"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels\"
I am guessing that Porsche (now VW has the over all problem) did not want to do the R & D necessary to support the diesel into its 911 line up. It probably goes without saying they have done 45-55 years of constant improvement on its gassers. The first US 911 was in 1965.If Subaru can diesel their flat 4, Porsche can diesel a flat 6...albeit heavy.
"does not deliver good mpg numbers"
source please?
<< my numbers are here.
Just to put some realities on it BMW's 335 D TTDI has what a 3.0 liter engine in line 6 cylinder twin turbo diesel. It yields what 265 hp and 425 # ft of torque?i dont think there is much argument against (in general) diesels get better mileage.
diesel itself produces higher BTU that gasoline. thus for a given vehicle will use less fuel to move.
i think much of the disconnect with diesels is the confusion about emissions and "global warming." Diesel has a higher carbon dioxide output per mile than gasoline. (22lbs per gallon vs 19.5 roughly) That argument doesnt hold up to me, as i see i dont burn gallons per commute, rather i drive miles per commute. If i was to drive a 60 mile commute in my diesel i would produce something shy of 30 lbs of carbon dioxide, whereas in a comparable(performance and option/size etc)gasser i would probably produce closer to 40lbs.
however the two thought trains are generally not combine. Hyper-milers almost never break there mileage down by carbon units/mile, while the "save the earth" community frequently point to the fact that a gallon of diesel produces a larger carbon footprint as compared to a gallon of gasoline.
but to digress back to the main topic, porsche's demographic is likely not concerned with emission, mileage, or their personal carbon footprint. and a 1.9 liter diesel engine will never produce the same kind of power that a 1.9 liter gasser will, and thus it is not suitable for most sports cars in the eyes of the vast majority.
to be fair... the e46 m3 has a 3.2 that produces more than 300hp NA (not turbo)... give it up man its not up for debate. Gas power is further along than diesel right now as far as power output is concernedJust to put some realities on it BMW's 335 D TTDI has what a 3.0 liter engine in line 6 cylinder twin turbo diesel. It yields what 265 hp and 425 # ft of torque?
So if Porsche were to get into the game, it would have to what? Offer a minimum of 2 diesel configurations? 3.6/3.8L? Right away, the transmissions are inadequate. If the same hp/power ratios are used, we are talking (baseline 3.0L 265 hp/425 # ft. ) 3.6 l ,318 hp 510 # ft, 3.8 l, 337 hp/540 # ft. These are literally MONSTER torque numbers and percentages compared to Porsches 3.6 l 288# ft of torque.
ok well really that only strengthens MY point. if you read my post i explained that the emissions of diesel are worse for a given gallon, not for a given mile. the diesel wins, but you dont have to convince me, im on board. its the other 99% of the US.^ Ben Dur's data is wrong. It's true that burning Diesel fuel emits more CO2 at the point of use for a given mass and volume than gasoline. However, a typical Diesel vehicle will consume on the average 30% less fuel than a comparable gasoline-fuelled vehicle. The net effect is that CO2 emissions are generally lower for Diesel versions of the same model vehicle, often by fairly wide margin. Look beyond tank-to-wheel and consider the production process of Diesel fuel from crude oil (well-to-tank, or well-to-wheel), and the CO2 balance looks even better in favour of Diesel.