1987 Mercedes Benz 190d 2.5 Turbo....

DSLPWR

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 6, 1999
Location
United States of America
All,

I know this is TDI heaven, but this is a rare bird. 1,500 units of this model were built in 1987 only, and most were shipped to the USA.

Engine puts out 123/126 HP, 166 ftlbs (225 Nm) of torque, and economizes at roughly 35-40 mpg. The vehicle weighs in at 2,845 pounds. Available only in automatic transmission. Going price now is about $7-9,00.00 if you can find one.

Technical info: chassis 201.128, Engine code 602.961.




Reward posted for information leading to the capture or purchase of said vehicle.


DSLPWR

[This message has been edited by DSLPWR (edited April 13, 2000).]
 
M

mickey

Guest
Great little cars! Silly me, I thought ALL 190Ds were turbocharged. But the turbos are, indeed, the rarest of the rare. I wonder if there is any mechanical difference between the turbo and non-turbo engines? If not, you could buy a non-turbo and stick a turbo on it. (VNT-series, perhaps?) Those were available in a 5-speed version, if I'm not mistaken. Now THAT would be rare!

-mickey

[This message has been edited by mickey (edited April 13, 2000).]
 

christi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 22, 1999
Location
Ruislip, Middlesex, UK
TDI
Peugeot 806, 607
Until quite recently Mercedes diesels were not available with a turbo in the UK, even though the same models were turbo charged in the rest of Europe. Apparently it was something to do with right hand drive (maye the steering column got too near to the turbo).

This meant that a UK firm, TB Turbos became specialists at turbo charging Mercedes diesel engines.

They will be able to answer the question.

------------------
1996 Passat Tdi estate (wagon (variant))
See my Peugeot / Passat site
 

SlowSpeed

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 9, 1999
Location
Long Beach, CA, USA
DSLPWR,

Are you looking for one? My buddy here, bought a dark blue unit, exactly like this last fall, for a song. It had a few problems, since fixed. It is running very nicely now. He has more vehicles than he needs just now and says that he will be selling it.

I took it for a spin last weekend. I really don't like the automatic tranny, but I believe that is unfamiliarity on my part. If I jump on the throttle, the shifting is heavy with a "chunk". If I'm easy on the throttle, it is pretty smooth. I was commenting that it probably is the engine's heavy torque which causes the "chunk". He was told by a German, a ship mechanic that he has been working with lately, that the tranny is that way by design. It is adaptive, if you will.

I'll put you in touch with the guy if you want to talk about MB. He was fascinated about the fact that he got a catalog from a company that can sell just about any part you would need for this model at a very reasonable price.
 

Peter Cheuk

Gasser :P
Joined
Aug 31, 1998
Location
Daly City, Calif., USA
TDI
'06 Jetta GLI
Is it me or did anyone else notice that the picture above shows a car in motion but without a driver? I guess that MB had self-navigating cars in Europe for a while, eh?
 

ThinkDiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 1999
Location
Northern Virginia USA
I saw a really nice one of these once in a parking garage. What wasn't nice though--is that it was white and although the whole rest of the car was immaculately groomed and waxed there was a nice fat black soot stain running up the cars backside-- not very attractive at all!


Nice car, but there is something to be said for the more advanced electronic controls in our VW TDI's.... Although if they made a 5 speed version of that MB, I would consider it...as long as it wasn't white
 
M

mickey

Guest
SlowSpeed: Your German friend is right. The MB auto shifts very smoothly and slowly when you're light on the throttle, but crashes into gear very quickly (like an old Ford or GM with a shift kit) when you use the throttle abruptly.

Katie's transmission does something really bizarre, that I've never seen an antomatic do before: If I accelerate from a stop at a moderate throttle setting (say 3/4 or so) the transmission runs through the first 2 gears normally. But in third gear the tachometer rises up to the maximum power output speed of about 3000 rpms and stays there while the vehicle speed continues to climb! Once the car "catches up" with the engine the tach resumes climbing or the tranny shifts up to 4th gear. (Depending on throttle input.) I understand a continuously variable transmission doing that, but to my knowledge the MB tranny isn't that kind of design. Could it have some sort of "variable" torque converter? I don't think it's a clutch slippage problem. The car has been too well maintained, and the original owner was far too conservative, for the transmission to be damaged. This really has the "feel" of being engineered that way on purpose. It's almost as if MB decided to give up some mechanical efficiency in exchange for keeping the engine at its torque peak to provide better acceleration. And I know it's not a tachometer problem because my ears are confirming that the engine speed remains perfectly constant for several seconds. I'd love to know how it does that!

-mickey
 

**DONOTDELETE**

New member
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Ric PLEASE

Long url's like the one
you posted make everyone
have to side scroll,
and in this case about
2 pages wide. I know
its a pain but....


You can now have true
hyperlinks using the
code. Just use the following format: [ URL=http://www.ultimatebb.com]UltimateBB.com
In the examples above,
the UBB Code automatically
generates a hyperlink to
the URL that is encased.
It will also ensure that
the link is opened in a
new window when the user
clicks on it. Note that
the "http://" part of the
URL is completely optional.
In the second example above,
the URL will hypelink the
text to whatever URL you
provide after the equal
sign. Also note that you
should NOT use quotation
marks inside the URL tag.


------------------
Louis
------------

[This message has been edited by llaftsew (edited April 14, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by llaftsew (edited April 14, 2000).]
 

Ric Woodruff

BANNED, Ric went to Coventry.
Joined
Feb 19, 1999
Louis, something must be wrong with your computer. It looks fine on mine when I oculated what I have previously posted.
 

DSLPWR

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 6, 1999
Location
United States of America
Ric,

Again, you make the point of being able to
find something nearly equal for less money.
And you're right. I can. But there comes a
point when less money means you less of a
product.

Your definition of "good" and mine,
compounded with the price we attach to that
definition means we won't likely see eye to
eye.


I'm assuming you're trying to help, and I
thank you for that. But you and I are
looking at this vehicle's value
differently. So, thanks, but no thanks.


DSLPWR

(I'm ready to rip this guy's head off, but
that's hardly productive and not very
nice...)
 

Ted

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2000
Location
Huntsville, AL USA
Mickey,

These were indeed available with the 5 speed ...the reason I remember is that they use ATF and not gear oil in these transmissions, as do certain three series BMW cars. I had to look this up some time back ....

Ted
 

DSLPWR

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 6, 1999
Location
United States of America
Ric,

I understand you wish to help. But money is not a very important factor in the purchase
of this automobile. Condition, mileage, maintenance history, and records are
important.

With this car, a higher price will follow condition and mileage, especially if someone
knows what they've got. So when you mention lower prices, I'm not that interested. I'll
willingly pay more for a solid car with complete records and lower mileage.


You also went that same low price route in the "For Sale" section, if you recall, with
a set of wheels.

So, I appreciate your wish to help, but our views differ. Let's leave it at that.

The standard shift was not available with the 190d 2.5 Turbo, but was for the 190d 2.5.

DSLPWR
 

BKmetz

Administrator, Member #10
Staff member
Joined
Sep 25, 1997
Location
Illinois
TDI
2015 Passat, titanium beige, 6MT
Ric,

For Mickey, DSLPWR, and I, buying an used MB is not a casual affair that is based only on price. A good used MB with complete maintenance records is worth a lot more than the same car that is just sitting on the lot. Something on the rare side as a 190D 2.5 turbo needs extra homework before making a committment.

I understand exactly where DSLPWR is coming from. My MB is the least rare of the MB diesels and I still looked for over a month before I bought one. I bought mine because it had detailed records and reciepts. I too as Mickey even got the window sticker with my car ($32,000).

I found out the car had AC work done, tie-rod work done, tranny work done, etc., etc., etc. The car had over $2,000 in work done the year before I bought it. That was the kicker that made me pick the one I did.

To put it in a nutshell, quality cars do not always have quality owners. Documentation on the car gives a clue to the quality of the owner. Mickey and I shopped for cars that had quality owners. DSLPWR is doing the same. It doesn't matter how many are listed for sale on the internet, DSLPWR wants something special. Which one will be the special one is up to his criteria and judgement.

But then you HAD a W108 280SE, I know lots of MB fans that think that is the one classic MB they always wanted. Was this a special car to you? When you sold it, do you think you could have gotten more if the car had complete paperwork? Good ones are getting very rare now. Were you a quality owner? Would a buyer looking for that special 280SE have considered your car?

Brian, 97 Passat TDI, 85 MB 300D-T


[This message has been edited by BKmetz (edited April 15, 2000).]
 

Ric Woodruff

BANNED, Ric went to Coventry.
Joined
Feb 19, 1999
DSLPWR:
What are you upset about???


I was just trying to help you out with add'l info, in case you had not checked the address attached.

I certainly would mind tips from others if I was in the market for a particular car.

Ric
 
M

mickey

Guest
I paid through the nose for Katie, relatively speaking. High book values were $12,200 (NADA) and $14,000 (Kelly "Blue Book.") I paid $13,900. I could have looked around and found a "bargain", and promptly dropped a couple thousand bucks trying to make the car servicable again. But by paying top dollar I'm able to spend my money on improving an already great car by ditching the soot trap and installing a gnarley Blaupunkt stereo. (Don't worry, BKmetz. The Becker is lovingly boxed up and tucked away in a closet.)

Yes, Ric, I'm aware that there are 190s available for 5K. There are probably some available for $500. But who would want them?

-mickey
 

DSLPWR

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 6, 1999
Location
United States of America
Well, I bought one. Papers arrive tomorrow for signature, then I coordinate shipping.
It's a financial challenge, but the salesman reassured me several times the car is in
great shape and needs nothing.

Complete records, everything operational, 98,000 miles. Gold with Palomino leather.
All options. Excellent condition. $7,950.00.

Wish me luck... It (was) listed under the diesel section at:
www.mercedeshowroom.com.

DSLPWR

[This message has been edited by DSLPWR (edited May 31, 2000).]
 
M

mickey

Guest
Excellent investment! I've had my eye on that one for a month or so. I'm glad to hear that a Fred's Forum member got it!

The first thing you need to do is replace the little rubber fuel line hoses that jump from injector to injector, and back to the pump. They'll probably be all original, and they'll be brittle and prone to leaking. For a small investment you can buy a length of that hose from an MB dealer. (Better still, order from an aftermarket place. I'll e-mail you a huge list of MB links that BKmetz sent me.) The hoses are difficult to remove, and will probably tear off. Just crunch the remaining bits into dust with a pair of pliars and clean up the tiny nozzles carefully before pushing new hoses on.

Congratulations! You've got a genuine Mercedes Benz that's roomier than any TDI, and which will get almost the same fuel economy as a TDI Automatic. I want one!

-mickey

p.s. Immediately change the oil and fill it with your favorite heavy duty Synthetic diesel oil. Put a new filter in there, too. Halfway through the first 5000 mile interval you should change the oil filter again, since the Synthetic will loosen up a lot of crap. If you're into illegal mods you can eliminate the EGR by simply pulling the vacuum hose off the actuator and plugging it. And if it has a trap oxidizer in the exhaust you might be able to locate a pipe intended for a non-U.S. model that will fit in its place. Your car might have a downstream catalyst instead of the trap oxidizer, though, and that won't be a problem unless it's plugged up.

[This message has been edited by mickey (edited April 19, 2000).]
 

Ric Woodruff

BANNED, Ric went to Coventry.
Joined
Feb 19, 1999
Hey Mickey, I am just curious; did you consider the 240D when MB shopping? or were you looking for something newer or with larger engine?

I am kind of looking for a car or small pickup for my son, and a 240D manual might be a good choice.

BTW: I drove a 220D 4 speed one time; it was pretty sluggish.

DSLPWR: After all the "praise" that salesmen get on this site, you believe them???


Ric
 
M

mickey

Guest
Hmmm. What happened to my reply?

-mickey

p.s. Oh, I get it. Ric cross-posted. Check out "Katie the Mercedes", Ric.

[This message has been edited by mickey (edited April 19, 2000).]
 

DSLPWR

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 6, 1999
Location
United States of America
mickey,

You know... There's something to be said for conincidences like BKmetz already having
sent me a slice of the same list he sent you. That's a good thing. Thanks for the advice on hoses. I will definetly check once I receive the car.

Illegally modifiying a Mercedes? Hmm... That's a decision... Let me drive it
first, then I can tell you better.
If it's fast already, I probably won't modify it. But since the comparison others are the SLK and a Golf GTI 16V...

Hi, my name is DSLPWR. I have a German problem...


DSLPWR
 

TDI Steve

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 18, 1999
Location
LI, NY
TDI
2000 Golf
I'm very jealous still... but I am working on getting my car to be considerably faster than your new baby, so I'll cope.
Good luck again!

------------------
silver/black 2000 Golf GL TDI /w Auto

[This message has been edited by TDI Steve (edited April 19, 2000).]
 

**DONOTDELETE**

New member
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Ric

They may be older that what you are considering but have you ever thought of an early eighties VW diesel pickup. I have one, they are a bit slow and noisy but I enjoy mine.

BTW they're relatively easy to work on and there aren't any electronic sensors or complex software to puzzle over. I don't know how well 20 yr old cars survive in Florida but there are still a few where I live that are serviceable.


------------------
Louis
------------
 

DSLPWR

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 6, 1999
Location
United States of America
Many moons ago, when I was learning to drive, my gandmother sold me her 1981 VW Pickup for $1.00 (just to make it legal). I absued that truck daily until I learned better. To this day, my dad drives it back and forth to work, averaging roughly 47 mpg.

Wonderful truck, limited supply, and those remaining are in questionable condition, either modified or actually used for work. If you can find one that's in good condition, keep it. Personal opinion there.

A whole 52 horsepower in that engine...

DSLPWR
 

dalcorn

Member
Joined
Aug 15, 1999
Location
Chicago, IL USA
I am going to look at a local 1987 Mercedes 190D Turbo with 127K miles on it this Wednesday. The seller represents that complete maintenance records are available. What should I review maintenance records for besides that the car was routinely taken to a dealership and things appear to have been taken care of as they came up?

What is the normal oil change interval for this model? The car is being sold because the owner is entering a nursing home, so I would not be surprised to find that the car has essentially been left sitting for some extended period of time. In addition to routine brakes, tires, batteries, antifreeze and fuel filters, I assume the ATF should have been changed a couple times (and not less recently that 50K miles ago), front struts changed at least once, and rear shocks replaced at least once. Should the timing chain have been replaced by this age? What else should I look for?

I live in the midwest and we sure do like salt during the winters. Is there anything atypical I should look for in terms of rust?
 

BKmetz

Administrator, Member #10
Staff member
Joined
Sep 25, 1997
Location
Illinois
TDI
2015 Passat, titanium beige, 6MT
The MB recommended oil change interval for its diesel engines is 5000 miles. The timing chain and tensioner should not be an issue until 150K miles or so. The car probably would still have the original shocks, those old timers usually don't notice the ride going soft on them.

Maintenance records should show the usual oil and oil/fuel/air filter changes and least one tranny fluid and filter change. A car this old would have to show brake and exhaust work.

Items such as water pump, alternator, battery, starter, etc. should have been replaced once by now.

Problem areas to look at would be vacuum leaks (everything on MB diesels is vacuum controlled, EVERYTHING), HVAC problems, and any oil, coolant, or tranny fluid leaks.

The W201 190 is an easy car to work on and parts are cheap and easy to get. So if the car has a few minor problems, and every used car does, if the price is right I'd say go for it.

Let us know how it turns out.

Brian, 97 Passat TDI, 85 MB 300D-T
 
M

mickey

Guest
No shocks last forever, but you'd be surprised how good Katy's 14 year-old shocks are. (93,000 miles and counting!) MB uses Bilstein monotube shocks, which are about the highest quality you can get. I wouldn't recommend replacing them with anything but original-equipment shocks. Bilstein makes plenty of stiffer "sport" and racing shocks, but they'll jar your fillings out of your teeth. (Totota put some in my Tacoma 4x4. They're brutal.) Monotube shocks provide excellent handling and vehicle control even with the softer valving.

Dive right in and replace any rubber parts that look brittle. Pay particular attention to the little braided fuel hoses that hop from injector to injector. They'll probably be very brittle. Mine simply crubled when I tried to pull them off and I had to crunch them to bits with needle-nose pliers to remove all the residue.

If you're unsure about the transmission fluid change history go ahead and have the fluid and filter changed right away. You should also immediately switch to your favorite heavy duty synthetic diesel oil, and replace the oil filter a couple of times during the first 5K miles on synthetic oil. (The synth will loosen up a lot of crap, and the filter might get clogged pretty quickly.) I don't know whether the 190D Turbo had a trap oxidizer or not, but you'll want to look into getting rid of that miserable thing ASAP so you can start using some proper fuel additives. (Additives can ruin the oxidizer and plug it up.)

There are a lot of resources on the internet for parts and accessories, as well as technical advice. (BKmetz: Do you want to e-mail him The List, or shall I?)

-mickey
 

dalcorn

Member
Joined
Aug 15, 1999
Location
Chicago, IL USA
Trip report: It is not every day you get to look over a 1987 Mercedes 190D 2.5 Turbo Diesel that is "...meticulously maintained and serviced, all records available. Truely in very fine condition. Illness forces sale, going into nursing home." The $7,500 asking price was somewhat higher than the $5,325 retail listed for this car by Kelly Blue Book. However, as prior posts indicate, a documented maintenance history has value. The gloss from the finish caught my eye as I approached the residence, and then it all came to naught.

20-year-old relative #1 was working another prospect as I arrived. After greetings and bumming a cigarette from my wife he returned to the other prospect #1 which afforded me time to walk around the car and observe the numerous spots where the paint had been touched up as well as those where it had not. The best that can be said of the work was that the touch up kit got the color right. The two front jack points were clearly rusty. The sheet metal surrounding the rear jack points was simply gone, having succumbed to rust some time ago. The right front headlight lens cover was cracked. In anticipation of the sale, the center brake light bulb had been replaced, but none of the crew could figure out how to reattach the cover plate. General Tire has been running some low priced promotional tires in this marketing area and that's what she wore, together with a more than liberal application of tire dressing.

The car had clearly been professionally detailed, but this was not going to remove some of the interior carpet stains (especially the bright red spot: front passenger). MB Tex fabric, dashboard, and other interior items showed well after the detailing. While the seats looked good, any remnant of firmness was long gone.

The engine compartment showed beautifully, consistent with the steam cleaning that it had most recently received. The rubber, fuel lines appeared recent and gave no indication of brittleness. I searched for, but was unable to locate the dreaded soot trap. An Interstate Battery of most recent vintage was installed.

Around this time 30ish relative #2 arrived to bum a cigarette from my wife, secure our acquiescence for prospect #1 to take the car for a spin, and unintentionally make off-putting comments about my wife ethnic group (nothing hostile: just offish). I volunteered that this would be a good time to review the maintenance records. Conceptually, this was a good idea except that the records were locked in a garage and the key was in the possession of another relative who was in Greece and would return at an undetermined time.

He was kind enough to share with me that he had a $7,000 offer for the car from a guy next door, but that the check was from an out of state bank and it took forever for his bank to clear out of state checks. I volunteered that federal law requires a three-day clearing period and that if I were in his shoes I would take the offer based on the condition of the vehicle. He further indicated that in addition to the prospect currently driving the vehicle he had 8 more prospects lined up to look at the vehicle. I think that another real live purchase may have been represented. I wished him best luck, and left a business card with a note indicating that I would like to look at the maintenance records when they become available.

At some point, relative #3 also introduced himself, but taken together, my sense is that none of the three were familiar with any aspect of the car's maintenance history. I have not ruled out purchasing the car, but the seller or I will need a better understanding of the market before we can come to terms. I had sufficient cash in my pocket to close on the spot, but the situation was not ripe for purchase.
 

BKmetz

Administrator, Member #10
Staff member
Joined
Sep 25, 1997
Location
Illinois
TDI
2015 Passat, titanium beige, 6MT
These people were not even the owners let alone quality owners. I just shake my head at people as this, they don't get it.

When you are looking for a car that means something to you, something special or rare, you are also interested in the owner as much as the car. These guys flunked.

Keep looking, you'll find the right one.

Caveat venditor! (Let the seller beware!)

Brian, 97 Passat TDI, 85 MB 300D-T


[This message has been edited by BKmetz (edited April 28, 2000).]
 
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