Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

dremd said:

I used to feel that way, in fact I thought that BMW I3 REX was ideal, after owning pure EV's for 4 years and about 100K I will say I was wrong, ditch all the complication, weight, maintenance, and wasted space for rarely used ICE and throw some more batteries in if needed/ rent/ an ICEonce or twice per year.

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From personal experience, I agree.

I have been reading about mild hybrid setups being installed, factory-installed to the current tdi's being sold in Europe.

Is there anything like a kit that can be installed on any of our TDI cars with a generator alternator and a pack of batteries to turn our vehicles into mild hybrids upping their mileage & maybe increasing their lifespan.?...

And also allowing us to use stop-start without damaging our current starters.?...

rotarykid said:

I have been reading about mild hybrid setups being installed, factory-installed to the current tdi's being sold in Europe.
Is there anything like a kit that can be installed on any of our TDI cars with a generator alternator and a pack of batteries to turn our vehicles into mild hybrids upping their mileage & maybe increasing their lifespan.?...
And also allowing us to use stop-start without damaging our current starters.?...

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I would imagine cobbling up something like a kit would be uber expensive and would negate any savings. It would be nice though. I've got almost 57,000 miles on the Volt, but only 12,500 on the ICE.

The big thing about putting motors on the belt drive is that you may have to change how the belt is tensioned, depending on its path. Conventional belt drives are designed around the engine generating positive torque, and the accessories generating negative torque.

The moment you have an accessory generating positive torque, you have to consider that in your tensioning system, and that makes retrofit belt-drive hybrids very difficult. (Note that XL Hybrids does have a system that mounts on the output shaft of RWD pickup transmissions, and that seems to provide noticeable benefits in city driving.)

Additionally, you have to control this thing. How do you determine when to regen, and when to boost? A naïve approach would be to simply regen either whenever 0% throttle is requested, or whenever the brakes are applied (note that this creates very inconsistent brake feel if your regen is binary!), and boost at certain throttle settings (a very naïve approach would be to boost at low throttle... this may actually hurt efficiency by encouraging low engine power settings! A better naïve approach would be to boost at high throttle).

(Worth noting that production hybrids use hybrid power at low power settings... but the engine is off. That greatly improves efficiency if you can do that, but a retrofit system can't easily do that, and it definitely can't if it's on the accessory belt drive.)

And, you have to interface all of this with the rest of the vehicle systems, of course. Easiest way would be to intercept the throttle and brake signals, but all of this will be vehicle-specific.

There is an outfit in California that electrifies classic dubs for about $60-85K.

https://www.zelectricmotors.com

I don't know anything about them other than finding that site years ago.

I think they're the one that popped up on facebook offering a 68 (?) fully restored Beetle but with a Tesla motor.

A lot of their conversions don't chop up anything and are fully reversible. Pretty cool if you're converting an old Porsche or something that may skyrocket in value down the road.

Oilerlord said:

You've got some sound investment analytics there. Thanks, but I'll pass on TSLA.

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It has been a volatile ride, but so far so good! I just wish I had doubled down a few months ago.

turbobrick240 said:

It has been a volatile ride, but so far so good! I just wish I had doubled down a few months ago.

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I'm buying my next Tesla with $TSLA$ I invested in 2012... just wish I'd purchased more.

I'm not quite ready to TDI swap my old truck, but I have seen a retrofit for RWD vans/trucks that adds electric motor, batteries, and controls. That may be an option to keep my old monster viable.

Jason

FCA and Tesla have finalized a deal that essentially has FCA funding the construction of Tesla's gigafactory 4 just outside Berlin in exchange for a large chunk of low emission vehicle credits. I'll be interested to see if this Tesla/FCA relationship leads to further collaboration between the companies.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/31797/fca-tesla-strike-emissions-deal-that-could-effectively-pay-for-berlin-gigafactory

What will be interesting is the "creative accounting" used to try and hide more things such as the year-to-year 39% drop in sales they're experiencing right now. It sounds like there is a worldwide demand they can't meet, according to the article. I'm doubting this is really the case.

Tesla won't be going out of business quickly; there is too much venture capital and glassy-eyed investment capital to burn through. And there will probably be a niche in supplying batteries of all types for the foreseeable future. But certainly, things will change in the future, and not for the better.

And there's a lot more factors to consider in the total equation, not just basic auto market factors.

Cheers,

PH

Not sure where you're getting that -39% figure. Tesla delivered about 50% more vehicles in 2019 than in 2018.
They also managed to turn a muddy field into a massive operational auto plant (gigafactory 3 in Shanghai) in less than a year. That's a Herculean feat in and of itself.

Mark SF said:

The point vs. electrics would be that you always need a second car for longer trips. In my case, I could have an electric car for commuting, and another car for the weekends - or I can have one car, the TDI. Considering all the energy that goes into making a car, I'm pretty sure that having one efficient vehicle comes out ahead.

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This is changing faster than you think. Between range (getting longer on a Tesla), recharging (getting shorter on a Tesla), and the number of (Tesla) chargers increasing drastically, I will be ready for my Tesla in about 3 years.

Thank you TDI for getting me there, but I won’t look back! You can’t use the hyper loop lanes in anything but electric!

BeetleGo said:

This is changing faster than you think. Between range (getting longer on a Tesla), recharging (getting shorter on a Tesla), and the number of (Tesla) chargers increasing drastically, I will be ready for my Tesla in about 3 years.
Thank you TDI for getting me there, but I won’t look back! You can’t use the hyper loop lanes in anything but electric!

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We are clearly on a steep curve now. I think we'll be completely electrified in half a generation.

I may be in the same boat, but it's doubtful since my next car likely will be a true sports car which overwhelmingly means gasoline, a commodity that is in surplus as diesel distillation itself runs the market for crude oil.

To think that some states are now "penalizing" EV's with extra road taxes is obnoxious to me and gives me a "wait and see" attitude. Will see how far diesel will continue to dominate transportation in the many ways it currently and for the foreseeable future does.

Tin Man said:

I may be in the same boat, but it's doubtful since my next car likely will be a true sports car which overwhelmingly means gasoline,

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Isn't the main purpose of a sports car supposed to be performance?

ToxicDoc said:

We are clearly on a steep curve now. I think we'll be completely electrified in half a generation.

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Assuming a generation is 35yrs....no way we’re fully electric in 15-20yrs. I mean, just take a look at the number of 20+yr-old vehicles still on the road today (not to mention on TDIclub alone).

The biggest hindrance is probably that LOTS of people just can’t, or don’t want to, buy new cars - just too expensive. Given the choice between $20K for a bargain-basement, no options new EV and <$10K for a high-end, fully loaded gasser that’s 10yrs old, there’s a huge segment of the population that will always go for the latter.

Nuje said:

Given the choice between $20K for a bargain-basement, no options new EV and <$10K for a high-end, fully loaded gasser that’s 10yrs old, there’s a huge segment of the population that will always go for the latter.

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That may be true today, but what if there was a $3 or $4 carbon tax on every gallon of fuel? A lot can happen in 15 years. I don't expect every ICE vehicle being off the road at that point, but I could see most all of the new offerings being electric.

$3-$4/gal carbon tax would basically be a “tax on the poor”; or (if on the other side of the current political spectrum), some sort of validation of the “coastal elites”.
Tough sell for either side.

For sure, a lot can change in 15yrs., but given the current political climate (and climate climate), a LOT would indeed have to change.

Who knows. The govt. could do a huge cash for clunkers type program to get folks into EV's and scrap their old cars. Ultimately, people will save money with more efficient vehicles.

nwdiver said:

Isn't the main purpose of a sports car supposed to be performance?

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Uh, no.

turbobrick240 said:

Who knows. The govt. could do a huge cash for clunkers type program to get folks into EV's and scrap their old cars. Ultimately, people will save money with more efficient vehicles.

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Assuming the price of electricity and taxes thereof remain low.

Tin Man said:

Uh, no.

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... what do you buy a sports car for? If it's not performance seems like a lot of people are wasting a lot of money on 'performance' parts...

nwdiver said:

... what do you buy a sports car for? If it's not performance seems like a lot of people are wasting a lot of money on 'performance' parts...

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Uh, you get a performance car/GT/Pony car/hot rod for that.

Sports cars, the real kind, don't need huge power or large engines.

"Performance" means a lot more than 0-60 mph acceleration, but you'd never know from how two-bit journalists use the term. I don't blame you for thinking this way.

Imagine a nice Polka or Waltz. Or better yet, skiing down a great slope. Sure you need some speed, but the penultimate sports car, a Miata (or S2000), has relatively low power. It's something the "video game" cars aren't yet known to do. Fake sound need not apply either. Think of a 4 wheel motorcycle but still a car. I'm not too sure how to classify a Civic Type R, but the Si version seems closer to a sports coupe.

Tin Man said:

"Performance" means a lot more than 0-60 mph acceleration,

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Did I imply that it does? Good cornering. Low CG. ~50/50 weight distribution AND acceleration. All things gasoline is no longer king of

I can understand if Tinman wants a miata or S2000 or boxster. There definitely is something visceral about a good ICE sports car.

nwdiver said:

Did I imply that it does? Good cornering. Low CG. ~50/50 weight distribution AND acceleration. All things gasoline is no longer king of

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Uh, yes you did. Agreed that "performance" should include all of the above but that's not what makes a sports car desirable - it may be fading fast as the old "analog" experience of driving yields to what amounts to be a live video-game experience.

But more worrisome is the "entry price" of heavily subsidized EV's while still keeping the market slim and unobtainable for most. It's ironic that "cost savings" is touted for such a car.

Reminds me of the fictional "oil subsidies" (try to find them - its mostly tax incentives for environmental and economically responsible practices) touted by the same people that are ruining the market for affordable EV's with what really happens - high prices. Mark the health care market, college tuition, or now the "affordable" housing prices, all subsidized. EV aficionados should support the end of subsidies and let the market determine how "affordable" lugging heavy batteries with low energy density around really is.

turbobrick240 said:

Who knows. The govt. could do a huge cash for clunkers type program to get folks into EV's and scrap their old cars. Ultimately, people will save money with more efficient vehicles.

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Cash for Clunkers was, IMHO, an absolute fraud of a program - the true "clunkers" are the <$1000 beaters on the roads that are being held together with duct tape and prayers, and none of those were "clunked" because the owners couldn't afford to buy something that qualified for the program even with the money from "clunking" their own cars (when they could get anything for them).

Why? Because the clunker program was focused on the EPA MPG rating of the vehicle, not its physical condition. A Jeep in perfect repair qualified for the clunker money because it was only rated 19MPG highway, but a beat-up, rusted out 80s Civic with duct tape over the rust holes and belching blue oili smoke out the tailpipe would get virtually nothing because it got over 25MPG. Common sense would be to take both vehicles (but not give full Clunker payout money for the Jeep because it was in serviceable condition), then offer the owner of the Civic the Jeep at an "auction price". After all, what's more polluting? 19MPG in good repair, or 30MPG that includes sending a quart of 10x30 out the tailpipe as blue smoke every 5000 miles?

My Jeep club's local chapter had a "pick-and-pull party" about 10-11 years back at a junkyard that had a whole lot filled with just Clunker Jeeps (mostly XJ Cherokees and ZJ/WJ Grand Cherokees), and the chapter officers arranged for us to get first shot at them.

I have never in my life seen so many older Jeeps in such good condition in one place - I pulled a bumper off a late 80s XJ that had literally zero rust - eight bolts holding the bumper brackets to the body, and every one came out without needing power tools or even penetrating oil. The sight of the cleanest XJs I think I've ever seen that weren't on a dealer lot just sitting there waiting to be fed into the shredder still makes me sick to my stomach to this day.

Well, I have a pretty nice 2001 XJ sitting in my driveway. They didn't get them all. I bet more of them have succumb to kids jacking them up and rolling them over than cash for clunkers took off the road.

I wasn't really passing judgement on the clunkers program. I'm just saying similar programs could easily take place in the future.