NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Jack Frost said:

Perhaps we need to look at the HPFP in the same way as the timing belt. Change it before it fails.

Click to expand...

After warantee expiration, it would be highly advisable. And meanwhile, keep an eagle eye out for metal flakes in the filter recess.

I am hoping that the better pumps will be a permanent fix (or at least good for 100k+ if doping with lubricity agents).

It is really screwy that a HPFP cannot be manufactured. I would pay more for one that doesn't shred itself apart. How about aftermarket?

So $800-1K for a timing belt, $1800+labor for a fuel pump all while staring down both barrels at a possible DPF replacement at anywhere between $1-2K.

Yeah, that's realistic.

Is the HPFP itself really $1800?

It can be had for under $1000 discounted, but as a maintenance item? BS. There goes your fuel savings out the window.

pleopard said:

Is the HPFP itself really $1800?

Click to expand...

Once the aftermarket re-builders get there hands on a few it will probably be around the $1000 mark


http://www.thedieselstore.com/templ...258111725911172601117261111726211172631117792

Impex lists the VW list price on a 03L130755A pump as $1265.

And, I still say, aftermarket (that is, non-Bosch) isn't really the true answer - if there's a 1800 bar version of the Bosch CP3.2, that's the answer. (Or, for that matter, use a CP3.3, and just have the thing bleeding fuel off all the time. You'll have enough fuel for 450 hp, but you don't have to use it all...) That's a pump that is more tolerant of US fuel.

Also, $900 for a VE pump has no relation to what a CR HPFP will cost.

El Dobro said:

It can be had for under $1000 discounted, but as a maintenance item? BS. There goes your fuel savings out the window.

Click to expand...

The crack spread hit $.70 per gallon (i.e. difference between rug and diesel). There is no savings for the lower mpg CR engines right now.

I don't hold one ounce of sympathy for VW. Is the claim that VWOA is/was too stupid to understand that the USA runs state of the art 1950s infrastructure. They should have expected it and developed a pump for it --- oh wait, they did in every design but the CR's .........

Actually, the 2.0T eats HPFPs, too.

(IIRC, the reason for gasser HPFPs dying is ethanol.)

bhtooefr said:

And, I still say, aftermarket (that is, non-Bosch) isn't really the true answer - .

Click to expand...

I wouldnt be so sure about that. Pensacola made a far superior update to the Stanadyne DB2 for my 6.9 IDI. The original lasts about 160.000 whereas the Pensacola with updated internals will outlast the original for many more miles.

3x designs

BMW had a recall on its HPFP thanks to a 20/20 report on ABC. I spoke to a BMW rep they are now on there 3rd replacement pump since the recall the others all failed. As per Friday 2/11/11 one of there salesman has 12k miles in just under 2 months an still working ok.

I also recently spoke with a Regional mgr for Bosch an he will get back to me on the VW issue sometime this week.

I called VW of N America on the HPFP problem, well they state its a fuel contamination water or gas mixed in the diesel fuel. I cam back and said well how come there is no contamination on the 06-08, only 09-10 her answer was pure silence.

The more people complaining the better off for all TDI owners

bhtooefr said:

Actually, the 2.0T eats HPFPs, too.

(IIRC, the reason for gasser HPFPs dying is ethanol.)

Click to expand...

Unless there's a failure mode I'm unaware of, it can't be ethanol or other fuel related reasons, the FSI engines have oil lubed HPFP cams. The newer TFSI engines have supposedly solved the problem by switching to a roller follower.

pleopard said:

I'll be quite upset if my pump fails soon after the warranty runs out at 60,000 miles. I mean, if it fails at 200,000 miles, fine, but if it fails and takes out $10K worth of fuel system components... That's just not acceptable. The effect of failure strikes me as a bigger issue than the failure itself...

Click to expand...

+1 This is real problem they should work on and the pump to.It's one thing for the pump to fail but to take out the whole system is a downer.

I am on the sidelines in purchasing a new TDI Wagon because of this issue. I do believe VW makes a great car, will get this handled and will have a permanent fix, but I also believe it will take a little while longer for this to happen.

However, there are way too many posts on the subject, both within this forum and outside sources.

Although nobody is exactly sure of how widespread this issue has become, there is no doubt, it is an issue.

These failures are not a state of mind, and I highly doubt they are all caused by diesel enthusiasts "accidentally" putting gasoline in their tanks.

My local dealer told me they have had 4 failures, and all were because the diesel purchasers didn't know any better and put gasoline in the tank. I know that is not true, and it fits nicely with VW's stance of "plausible deniability."

In the meantime, I'll continue to drive my German Diesel SUV around until I believe VW has fixed this issue.

Mis-fueling

Dariof: > My local dealer told me they have had 4 failures,
> and all were because the diesel purchasers didn't know
> any better and put gasoline in the tank. I know that is not true, ..

Doesn't matter. Even if it were true, mis-fueling is going to happen.
And it can happen at the terminal, when re-filling the retail
station, or when filling the vehicle.

In the past, it often resulted in nothing in particular,
or maybe a blown head gasket. It did not cause mass
destruction of the fuel system.
_______
The HPFP is apparently not designed for the real world
(US lubricity or predictable mis-fueling - or both).

Second Turbo said:

In the past, it often resulted in nothing in particular,
or maybe a blown head gasket. It did not cause mass
destruction of the fuel system.
_______
The HPFP is apparently not designed for the real world
(US lubricity or predictable mis-fueling - or both).

Click to expand...

Unless you filter the fuel LEAVING the high pressure port of a HPFP, a failed pump will tend to destroy the fuel system. There are very few options to filter the fuel leaving a HPFP at 1800 bar.

Perhaps a sintered bronze filter integral in the high pressure fuel line between the HPFP and the common rail would withstand that kind of pressure, but not much else would. This would not be a maintenance item, but a fail safe item. The metal particles leaving the trashed pump would lock up the bronze filter and stall the engine before the metal reached the common rail and the rest of the fuel system.

Back on topic please...

I'm relieved to hear about this after buying a Jetta TDI in November and then finding out about the HPFP issue a few months later when joining the Forum.
a $24k car that might need a 10K infusion? bugger me!
After reading this I'll go check my builders sticker, nice to know about the 3 changes in design of the HPFP - but still concerned.
At least there is promise in the the knowledge the NHTSA is involved and examining this problem so we all aren't just hanging in the wind at the whim of a dealship if it happens.....I did buy the extended (prob worthless) warranty though, hope it will cover this issue.

I find it odd that people see the HPFP redesigns as 'suspicious' -- that this is somehow a cover-up by VW, that they know that there's an issue.

I think the issue is that people have filled their TDI's with gas. Or a dealer has filled an owner's TDI with gas. And O.K., VW is trying to make the HPFP not disintegrate, but that doesn't mean that they are somehow responsible for the problem. They're just trying to make the pump more robust, since there are these reports of problems.

There seems to be evidence that mis-fueling has caused a fair percentage of the HPFP failures. Evidence of design-related HPFP issues seems to be lacking. There's just a lot of worry and finger-pointing. And I don't mean finger-pointing from VW, I mean finger-pointing from nervous TDI'ers.

I'm glad to see that stats that only 0.11% of my model year 2010 TDI's have had HPFP failures. Likely a good percentage of those are from mis-fueling. I'll continue to add Stanadyne, just in case, and continue to not worry.

p.s. Many, many car parts are modified after start-of-production -- sometimes they are major overhauls, but most often they are minor tweaks.

So, only VW owners mis-fuel?

El Dobro said:

So, only VW owners mis-fuel?

Click to expand...

A question like that doesn't deserve an answer, but here's a hint...

http://www.fuelsure.com/index.html

someone please say that petrol is never ever remotely pumped into the underground diesel tank at a fueling station.

frugality said:

I find it odd that people see the HPFP redesigns as 'suspicious' -- that this is somehow a cover-up by VW, that they know that there's an issue.
....
Many, many car parts are modified after start-of-production -- sometimes they are major overhauls, but most often they are minor tweaks.

Click to expand...

I can only speak for myself on this but I do find it interesting that VW recognized a weakness in the design of the pump (hence the need for multiple redesigns) but at the same time maintained the party line that failures were due exclusively to fueling errors.

Good designs not only need to be reliable enough to have very low failure rates, they also need to fail as gracefully as possible, limiting the collateral damage (which clearly this design doesn't).

The really critical shortcoming though is in the sensitivity to low lubricity fuel situations, either due to misfiling or lack of sufficient additives to raise the lubricity to acceptable levels. The graph in the 2003 Bosch report is especially telling: With untreated "raw" diesel, the pump fails within a very short period of time. More wear than a lifetime of HFRR 460 rated fuel.

Makes you wonder what the lubricity rating is of RUG or even a 50% RUG/D2 mix.

Bottom line though is these pumps are much more vulnerable to low lubricity situations than previous designs and they're trying to redesign to make them less vulnerable. The original design is a design flaw. Fix it for all of us VW.

"There seems to be evidence that mis-fueling has caused a fair percentage of the HPFP failures. Evidence of design-related HPFP issues seems to be lacking. There's just a lot of worry and finger-pointing. And I don't mean finger-pointing from VW, I mean finger-pointing from nervous TDI'ers."


Well that seems to be VW's position, it does not seem the NHTSA is buying it. But even if true they should warn every potential buyer " our fuel system is very sensitive to any gas or water that is mixed with your diesel and will likely result in a fuel system failure that will coat you $10000 dollars to fix" (and that we and the dealer will make a profit on)
Would you still buy? some would , some would not. Just give me all the facts up front to make a decision which is now for me do I keep the car after 60000 miles or not

frugality said:

A question like that doesn't deserve an answer, but here's a hint...

http://www.fuelsure.com/index.html

Click to expand...

Again, sarcasm regarding VW's stance. Is anyone seeing catastrophic failures from mis-fueling with other lines? I see trucks with Duramax diesels all day and even when we get the rare one that was mis-fueled, there's no destroyed parts and a major bill going along with it.

El Dobro said:

Again, sarcasm regarding VW's stance. Is anyone seeing catastrophic failures from mis-fueling with other lines? I see trucks with Duramax diesels all day and even when we get the rare one that was mis-fueled, there's no destroyed parts and a major bill going along with it.

Click to expand...

Bingo.

If other common rail systems don't catastrophically fail when misfueled, why should ours.

Fix it VW.

Folks, I know this is totally off topic but, I was just contacted by a distraught local club member, KJHaun, who has 53K miles on their CR TDI. He took it to a dealer and reg valve was leaking so they they replaced the fuel rail and a glow plug and sent him on his way. He was then getting the infamous flashing GP. He brought the car back to the dealer and they now say the HPFP needs replacing. They are telling them it is not covered under warranty. They made a claim to VW customer care to no avail. I even told them to call my contact at McKenna VW and they also say this is not covered under warranty. I was stunned to say the least. I told them to call their insurance company in attempt to file a claim for coverage.

I guess the only thing they can do at this point is have the dealer complete the repair and then file a small claims suit against VW. I thought some here were claiming that the fuel system was covered under the 60K PT warranty.

This is the exact nightmare scenario I was afraid would transpire. It's at the end of a hard day for me and I am totally bushed and not thinking clearly and was wondering if anyone here has any suggestions for this owner and club member. They will be posting in the HPFP failures thread along with filing a claim with NTHSA. Later!

I posted in several threads the following.

First, last year I asked my SA whether the HPFP was covered under the Powertrain warranty, he immediately responded yes, it's covered. I asked are you sure. He called something up on his screen and said yep, it's covered.

Second, I specifically asked in an email to VW Customer Care whether the HPFP was covered under the Powertrain warranty and if any other fuel system components were covered like the injectors, tank pump, intermediate pump and so forth. The reply was that only the HPFP is covered under the Powertrain warranty. All the other parts in the fuel system are covered by the 3/36 warranty.

So, the club member should contact CC to straighten this out.

Warranty Coverage Not Clear

Plus 3 Golfer said:

I posted in several threads the following.

First, last year I asked my SA whether the HPFP was covered under the Powertrain warranty, he immediately responded yes, it's covered. I asked are you sure.
He called something up on his screen and said yep, it's covered.

Second, I specifically asked in an email to VW Customer Care whether the HPFP was covered under
the Powertrain warranty and if any other fuel system components were covered like the
injectors, tank pump, intermediate pump and so forth. The reply was that only the
HPFP is covered under the Powertrain warranty.
All the other parts in the fuel system are covered by the 3/36 warranty.

So, the club member should contact CC to straighten this out.

Click to expand...

One of the local dealers had a '09 TDI with 50 K plus miles come in on a hook with a failed HPFP,
and at first, that service department was not going to do the repairs under warranty!

Then mysteriously, they reversed their position, and replaced everything and covered it?
Maybe, it's up to the dealer? Or maybe VW is doing it under a case by case basis?

I know if that were to happen to mine, I would raise the roof
and it would be covered by VW under warranty or else!

I have a really good Lemon-Law firm practically on retainer!



D

Wondering . .

timwagon said:

Let's do some basic math based on the NHTSA announcement,
as anything else is just conjecture:

NHTSA listed 160 failures in their report.

VW has presented "information" about fuel-related failures for 50
of these cases, and 20 of those 50 are "dealer service" related.

That leaves only 30 TDI "non-dealer" cases for which VW has presented
any supporting evidence of fuel contamination.

VW has not explained, or can not explain, why the other 110 HPFP failures happened.

Click to expand...

I for one do not believe the relatively small numbers that VW is telling us exist!

I'm doing my own sort of independent survey of as many local dealers as I
can to be able to ascertain how many HPFP failures each dealer has seen.
Already I have one dealer that has repaired eight (8) HPFP failures.
Now, multiply that many by the number of VW dealers
nationwide and, well see what I am driving at ?
The total has got to me many many more than the figures that VW
is talking about, therefore making the failure percentages higher!

Of course, not all dealers will have repaired that many.
However, there will be dealers who have repaired many more than that,
and of course, there may be dealers who have not had to repair any!

What if everyone were to simply ask their service adviser or service manager
how many HPFP failures their dealership has seen and post that somewhere here?
Would we then not have a much higher total, well over the 200 or 210 that are spoken of now?

Let's start off with someone I know who knows of more than just a few:
Harvieux . . How many do you know of, and were they all at the same dealership?



D

El Dobro said:

So, only VW owners mis-fuel?

Click to expand...

And Canadians don't mis-fuel?

(Very few failures are reported here - and we have a diesel fuel lubricity standard that is consistent with the rest of the world, unlike USA)

If mis-fueling were really at fault (and not the incompatibility of the HPFP with American poor-lubricity fuel) one would expect it to happen just as often here, as it does there. Even correcting for population (1/10th) and market share (probably double), HPFP failures here have thus far been extremely rare.