DIY ECU tuning?

keaton

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so I'm new here, i have just been reading and poking around in my free time for several months....

i was wondering what the TDI market is like for the DIY tuner?
from my understanding, from vag-com's website it does not do ECU flashing/reprogramming...

i don't own a TDI yet, but when i sell my BMW I'm going to get one.
before i bought my BMW i started learning/decoding the OEM ECU (chip tuning blows) but figured out my BMW's DME as well as the next generation of motor after mine. the biggest problem in that battle was the market was so tight on information that people who knew stuff didn't want to help and if they did help it wasn't much..... so needless to say after i figured it out i handed out a lot of information to help the DIY'ers. from NA tunes to FI tunes, MAF rescaling, injector scaling, load rescaling, and also helped with remote tunes. pissed off pro tuners :rolleyes:
 

vwmikel

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'94 Golf Sport TDI
The TDI tuning market isn't much different. There is a lot of information out there if you want to do a very basic tune, but most of the people who know a thing of two more than the basics tend to keep their mouths shut.
 

keaton

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vwmikel said:
The TDI tuning market isn't much different. There is a lot of information out there if you want to do a very basic tune, but most of the people who know a thing of two more than the basics tend to keep their mouths shut.
:mad:

where is a good place to start reading?
do the post 1996 cars go through the OBD scan port, or is it going to be like OBD 1 chip tuning with EEPROM emulators (for easy tuning)?

so with software interface are you guys using to edit the maps? in a hex editor?

so what i'm thinking of getting a a ALH motor (1998-2003), i was thinking post 1999.5 so the car comes with a VGT

i see people doing MAF to MAP setups, whats the reason? if your doing a rescale of the MAF table why no use a bigger MAF?
does the computer have the code for running both MAP & MAF?? the e46 BMW computer has a software switch that allows the tuner to use either MAF or MAP... just different pins on the ECU and different formulas for calculating fuel, timing, etc.
 

40X40

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So you published a bunch of BMW tuning secrets and in doing so pissed off the professional tuners that refused to help you learn how to tune BMWs???

And now you want help to do the same to the professional TDI tuners?

I hope I read that wrong....

Bill
 

vwmikel

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'94 Golf Sport TDI
keaton said:
:mad:

where is a good place to start reading?
do the post 1996 cars go through the OBD scan port, or is it going to be like OBD 1 chip tuning with EEPROM emulators (for easy tuning)?
The '96 Passats were actually OBD1 at first unless they got the TSB recall ECU. The OBD1 ECU is 8 bit and uses two DIL EPROMs. '97-'98 Passats and MK3's used OBD2 ECU's that used two PLCC32 EPROMs. These were 16 bit. Nothing is OBD flashable until 2000 model year.

keaton said:
so with software interface are you guys using to edit the maps? in a hex editor?
The software that people use varies, but you can bet that nobody is using a basic hex editor. I see that as being somewhat crude since you wouldn't have 2 and 3D mapping capabilities.

keaton said:
so what i'm thinking of getting a a ALH motor (1998-2003), i was thinking post 1999.5 so the car comes with a VGT
All US MK4's have VNT's. That includes '98 Beetles and '99.5 Golfs/Jettas.

keaton said:
i see people doing MAF to MAP setups, whats the reason? if your doing a rescale of the MAF table why no use a bigger MAF?
does the computer have the code for running both MAP & MAF?? the e46 BMW computer has a software switch that allows the tuner to use either MAF or MAP... just different pins on the ECU and different formulas for calculating fuel, timing, etc.
The primary purpose of the MAF on most TDI's is to control the EGR. It is also used for smoke limiting on US TDI's, but that can be switched to reference the MAP sensor. The technical term for this would be speed density.
 

vwmikel

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40X40 said:
So you published a bunch of BMW tuning secrets and in doing so pissed off the professional tuners that refused to help you learn how to tune BMWs???

And now you want help to do the same to the professional TDI tuners?

I hope I read that wrong....

Bill
That is exactly the kind of thing that people are afraid of. Of course there is the obvious reasoning that they don't want to create a competitor, but a far worse scenario is the guy who knows just enough to be dangerous.

It is often that I get people asking a lot of questions, but the point I try to make is that learning to tune TDI's is not a way of saving money when tuning your own car. Just the time alone to learn enough to do a basic tune on your own car would make that prohibitive. What we charge really is cheap when you consider how much time we have into development and the money that we have into software and tooling.
 

keaton

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40X40 said:
So you published a bunch of BMW tuning secrets and in doing so pissed off the professional tuners that refused to help you learn how to tune BMWs???

And now you want help to do the same to the professional TDI tuners?

I hope I read that wrong....

Bill
That was the end result, not the goal. There was a huge DIY calling and tuners raping the market $1200+per tune is too high, same price for a stand alone. Others were already trying it, I just happen to have a back ground in electrical engineering and software on embedded systems. Its not that big of a secret just knowing what to look for in the hexadecimal ...


vwmikel said:
The '96 Passats were actually OBD1 at first unless they got the TSB recall ECU. The OBD1 ECU is 8 bit and uses two DIL EPROMs. '97-'98 Passats and MK3's used OBD2 ECU's that used two PLCC32 EPROMs. These were 16 bit. Nothing is OBD flashable until 2000 model year.
1999.5+? I keep reading that a model to get for the golf /Jetta
The software that people use varies, but you can bet that nobody is using a basic hex editor. I see that as being somewhat crude since you wouldn't have 2 and 3D mapping capabilities.
Winols and tunerpro rt do both. TunerPro RT also does real time tracking in the hex

All US MK4's have VNT's. That includes '98 Beetles and '99.5 Golfs/Jettas.



The primary purpose of the MAF on most TDI's is to control the EGR. It is also used for smoke limiting on US TDI's, but that can be switched to reference the MAP sensor. The technical term for this would be speed density.
Yes I'm aware that its called speed density system. Is this a software switch or a MAF table rescale?
 

keaton

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vwmikel said:
That is exactly the kind of thing that people are afraid of. Of course there is the obvious reasoning that they don't want to create a competitor, but a far worse scenario is the guy who knows just enough to be dangerous.
Not the goal to be a Pro tuner. just a DIY'er.

It is often that I get people asking a lot of questions, but the point I try to make is that learning to tune TDI's is not a way of saving money when tuning your own car. Just the time alone to learn enough to do a basic tune on your own car would make that prohibitive. What we charge really is cheap when you consider how much time we have into development and the money that we have into software and tooling.
My time is free for my projects. You say its cheap for what I get, but if I want my tune tweeked to optimize my upgrades after everyone then that's a new tune...... diesel tuning is not that hard, go back to the cummins Gen 1/2 4bt/6bt no DME just a mechanical IP. More fuel = more power and higher egts, more air = lower egts. ...

I'm not new to diesel tuning, just new to diesels with a DME.
 

vwmikel

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keaton said:
1999.5+? I keep reading that a model to get for the golf /Jetta
'99.5 Golfs/Jettas were MSA15.7 and not OBD flashable. '00-03 is EDC15V and OBD flashable.


keaton said:
Winols and tunerpro rt do both. TunerPro RT also does real time tracking in the hex
I use winols, but I don't think TunerPro will run a 16 bit emulator....at least not the last time I looked.

keaton said:
Yes I'm aware that its called speed density system. Is this a software switch or a MAF table rescale?
It's kind of both.

keaton said:
Not the goal to be a Pro tuner. just a DIY'er.
Neither was it for me.


keaton said:
My time is free for my projects. You say its cheap for what I get, but if I want my tune tweeked to optimize my upgrades after everyone then that's a new tune...... diesel tuning is not that hard, go back to the cummins Gen 1/2 4bt/6bt no DME just a mechanical IP. More fuel = more power and higher egts, more air = lower egts. ...

I'm not new to diesel tuning, just new to diesels with a DME.
I'm not sure who would charge you for a small update. Most of us are pretty liberal with that sort of thing if you bought a loader. Diesel tuning may not be as hard as some gassers, but it is far from as simplistic as you make it sound.
 

Bob_Fout

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keaton said:
Not the goal to be a Pro tuner. just a DIY'er.


My time is free for my projects. You say its cheap for what I get, but if I want my tune tweeked to optimize my upgrades after everyone then that's a new tune...... diesel tuning is not that hard, go back to the cummins Gen 1/2 4bt/6bt no DME just a mechanical IP. More fuel = more power and higher egts, more air = lower egts. ...

I'm not new to diesel tuning, just new to diesels with a DME.
Most tuners charge a small fee, some none, for retunes due to hardware changes.

If only it was simple. What are safe boost levels at what RPM? How much timing advance do you choose? How much N75 (controls the VNT vanes) duty cycle? How far out do you run the torque to and when do you start dropping it? How do you avoid over-speeding the turbo? How much fuel do you add or pull for various nozzles? How much fuel do you add or pull to keep smoke and EGTs in check? Then factor in the various turbos that have different operating ranges and speeds. Also account for those with stock or upgraded exhaust, stock or upgraded clutch, stock or upgraded IC and/or IC pipes.

On top of THAT, what maps do you change?
 

hatemi

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If you're interested in learning then www.chiptuners.org is a place to start digging. Be prepared for some hostility and territorial pissing. You just have to live with it. Just don't ask before you have done some searching yourself and show the results of your own work. For example if you're asking for what a certain map does then show what maps you already found out yourself. Too bad the good tutorials are not available anymore.
 

ryanp

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I would love to learn to map but on the other hand i dont value my time as 'free' so the endless hours tweeking, burning, logging ect could get very boring, instead i pay some ££ and the file that works perfectly first time falls into my inbox :)
 

Rub87

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cheap 16bit emulator that can do 29f400 psop44 or twin 29f010 plcc32 would be nice :)
 

mrchill

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Tuning like everything else requires a certain skill to be proficient at. Tuners WILL protect their market vigorously. IN the end, they will lose to the folks who like open source tuning\editing. The ones who are really gifted, have nothing to fear from such groups. They will always be ahead, and available for a fee (of course) to fix the mistakes made by those with inadequate knowledge. Its just like auto repair. Most everyone (at least on sited like this) do their own brakes, many do their own turbos, injectors, oil changes and so on. That market was badly diluted so that auto repair places cant make money easily. Of course....shops were "thieves" for charging for "simple" repairs that most have to read a how to to accomplish and still need help. Just like you said about tuners. They are "thieves" for charging for their work and experience. But like auto repair shops...the tuners will fall as well. BUT again, like a gifted mechanic, a gifted tuner NEVER has to worry.
 

Rub87

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they won't fall as long as there people believing they're the best.. I've seen 750$ files from big national an international tuning companies.. then I decided it was better not to take things for granted..
 

hatemi

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Yes most horror stories and worst files come from HUGE vendors and their crappy generic ad 10% on everything methods. And they charge 700€ for that fun.
 

IanMH

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You've got my support! Following this thread....
 

Rub87

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hatemi said:
Yes most horror stories and worst files come from HUGE vendors and their crappy generic ad 10% on everything methods. And they charge 700€ for that fun.
you forgot a zero, in spain/portugal they like 45° of duration on a stock VB and then they even change the SOI maps in the wrong direction.. ;)
 

F1 tuning

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mrchill said:
Tuning like everything else requires a certain skill to be proficient at. Tuners WILL protect their market vigorously. IN the end, they will lose to the folks who like open source tuning\editing. The ones who are really gifted, have nothing to fear from such groups. They will always be ahead, and available for a fee (of course) to fix the mistakes made by those with inadequate knowledge. Its just like auto repair. Most everyone (at least on sited like this) do their own brakes, many do their own turbos, injectors, oil changes and so on. That market was badly diluted so that auto repair places cant make money easily. Of course....shops were "thieves" for charging for "simple" repairs that most have to read a how to to accomplish and still need help. Just like you said about tuners. They are "thieves" for charging for their work and experience. But like auto repair shops...the tuners will fall as well. BUT again, like a gifted mechanic, a gifted tuner NEVER has to worry.

1+++++
 

keaton

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vwmikel said:
'99.5 Golfs/Jettas were MSA15.7 and not OBD flashable. '00-03 is EDC15V and OBD flashable.

I'm not sure who would charge you for a small update. Most of us are pretty liberal with that sort of thing if you bought a loader. Diesel tuning may not be as hard as some gassers, but it is far from as simplistic as you make it sound.
so i'm going to get a 00+ then, sick of chip tuning ( read/edit/erase/burn/reinstall and go).
i know its a little more then that more fuel, more air.
timing adds cylinder pressure, 1 degree ~2% increase, so upping timing fuel and boost is not a good thing

Bob_Fout said:
Most tuners charge a small fee, some none, for retunes due to hardware changes.

If only it was simple. What are safe boost levels at what RPM? How much timing advance do you choose? How much N75 (controls the VNT vanes) duty cycle? How far out do you run the torque to and when do you start dropping it? How do you avoid over-speeding the turbo? How much fuel do you add or pull for various nozzles? How much fuel do you add or pull to keep smoke and EGTs in check? Then factor in the various turbos that have different operating ranges and speeds. Also account for those with stock or upgraded exhaust, stock or upgraded clutch, stock or upgraded IC and/or IC pipes.

On top of THAT, what maps do you change?
that's the whole point of doing a DIY thread. the information is use at your own risk...... just because the information is there doesn't mean people are going to use or know how. willing to bet most are affraid of blowing up there motots, turbos, IP, etc.....

hatemi said:
If you're interested in learning then www.chiptuners.org is a place to start digging. Be prepared for some hostility and territorial pissing. You just have to live with it. Just don't ask before you have done some searching yourself and show the results of your own work. For example if you're asking for what a certain map does then show what maps you already found out yourself. Too bad the good tutorials are not available anymore.
i have made a few threads on there for BMW stuff........ not a huge fan of that site, but i'll poke around on there again.

Rub87 said:
cheap 16bit emulator that can do 29f400 psop44 or twin 29f010 plcc32 would be nice :)
so i'm going to guess with out looking up the data sheet that we have a single 4Mb chip or 2 1Mb chips..... and i take it the 4mb chip is not all the way used....

mrchill said:
Tuning like everything else requires a certain skill to be proficient at. Tuners WILL protect their market vigorously. IN the end, they will lose to the folks who like open source tuning\editing. The ones who are really gifted, have nothing to fear from such groups. They will always be ahead, and available for a fee (of course) to fix the mistakes made by those with inadequate knowledge. Its just like auto repair. Most everyone (at least on sited like this) do their own brakes, many do their own turbos, injectors, oil changes and so on. That market was badly diluted so that auto repair places cant make money easily. Of course....shops were "thieves" for charging for "simple" repairs that most have to read a how to to accomplish and still need help. Just like you said about tuners. They are "thieves" for charging for their work and experience. But like auto repair shops...the tuners will fall as well. BUT again, like a gifted mechanic, a gifted tuner NEVER has to worry.
+1
this was my arguement for a long time, you just said it better them me :cool:
 

ryanp

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IMO you would be better using your skills to make tuning better and easier for the guys doing it for a living instead of stepping on their toes. Making the emulator will make the tuning less of trial and error and also some nice hardware and software for EGT, EMP and boost logging to aid the mapping process further than what vag com can offer.

I'm trying to get the latter sorted for when i need my crazy project mapping properly!!

Just my two penneth.
 

keaton

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ryanp said:
IMO you would be better using your skills to make tuning better and easier for the guys doing it for a living instead of stepping on their toes. Making the emulator will make the tuning less of trial and error and also some nice hardware and software for EGT, EMP and boost logging to aid the mapping process further than what vag com can offer.

I'm trying to get the latter sorted for when i need my crazy project mapping properly!!

Just my two penneth.
not trying to step on toe, but the general attitude is when some one tries to figure this out (in any market ) its "I'm not helping you, your going to steal my business. I'm sure you understand!" I'm approaching it from i want to lean the "how to" or as an engineering problem. if you know the ins and outs down to the basic levels then you have a better understanding of whats going on, how things are reacting, how things are effected by these/those changes
I'm not the person who just hands over money and says "make my car fast" i have several friends like that. they just get out the check book and say make it fast and when you ask them "what do you have done?" their answer is "stage 2"...... "ok stage 2 is meaningless, whats done to the car?"...... "it's a stage 2 " and knowing nothing more or nothing less other then a sales rep sold them a "stage" or a magazine said use company X's stage x for this power goal.

my cars/trucks are built not bought that includes software.
 

Rub87

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Location
Belgium
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Ibiza '99 90HP
keaton said:
so i'm going to get a 00+ then, sick of chip tuning ( read/edit/erase/burn/reinstall and go).
i know its a little more then that more fuel, more air.
timing adds cylinder pressure, 1 degree ~2% increase, so upping timing fuel and boost is not a good thing



that's the whole point of doing a DIY thread. the information is use at your own risk...... just because the information is there doesn't mean people are going to use or know how. willing to bet most are affraid of blowing up there motots, turbos, IP, etc.....


i have made a few threads on there for BMW stuff........ not a huge fan of that site, but i'll poke around on there again.



so i'm going to guess with out looking up the data sheet that we have a single 4Mb chip or 2 1Mb chips..... and i take it the 4mb chip is not all the way used....


+1
this was my arguement for a long time, you just said it better them me :cool:
chips are all the way used, but the file contains a big section of 'white noise'

What I posted here I'll send in PM ;)
 

HumboldtDiesel

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I dont see why tuners would feel the need to hoard there information

I have EFI Live for my Duramax which is fully open to public tuning yet I and 99% of the people out there arent going to try and make a high HP tune. Heck you could even steal canned tunes with it but it doesnt seem to be a problem

I would much rather buy the tune from a pro, its really very complicated.
Works great for the not so complicated things like speedo, emissions and data logging for the DIY tho
 

NB_TDi

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HumboldtDiesel said:
I dont see why tuners would feel the need to hoard there information
Profit.

Steps to being a tuner:
1. Keep all tuning information to ourselves
2. ???????????
3. Profit!!!!

We have a local tuner here that does Asian Imports. I asked to see his operation and work, I was denied and told I was just going to steal his ideas and methods. I was interested, but I'm not out to steal anything. Heck I got an email from a nameless person about my Digital Gauge. I was told to keep my programming and schematics to myself and not to share for the good of the industry.

Frankly I'm sick of hearing the same story.

Flame suit, Check.
 

vwmikel

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NB_TDi said:
Steps to being a tuner:
1. Keep all tuning information to ourselves
2. ???????????
3. Profit!!!!
Let me elaborate for you.

1. Ask questions and annoy those who know something.
2. Either pay someone to teach you about tuning, or start researching.
3. Spend about $5-6k on software and tools to get started.
4. After about 2 sleepless years you might feel good enough to start tuning for others.
5. Spend more money on equipment to get your product to your customers.
6. Keep learning
7. Try to pay off some of your debts you've incurred by tuning for others.
8. Repeat steps 5-7.

It's more than profit, it's the principle. Does Coca-cola post their recipe on the internet? Nope. Does Microsoft post up the schematics for the XBOX? Nope. Why? Well, they have a lot of time and money invested in that research so they're entitled to do with it as they please. Everyone thinks it's an evil plot or something, but everyone has to make a buck or none of us would be here.
 

F1 tuning

Vendor
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vwmikel said:
Let me elaborate for you.

1. Ask questions and annoy those who know something.
2. Either pay someone to teach you about tuning, or start researching.
3. Spend about $5-6k on software and tools to get started.
4. After about 2 sleepless years you might feel good enough to start tuning for others.
5. Spend more money on equipment to get your product to your customers.
6. Keep learning
7. Try to pay off some of your debts you've incurred by tuning for others.
8. Repeat steps 5-7.

It's more than profit, it's the principle. Does Coca-cola post their recipe on the internet? Nope. Does Microsoft post up the schematics for the XBOX? Nope. Why? Well, they have a lot of time and money invested in that research so they're entitled to do with it as they please. Everyone thinks it's an evil plot or something, but everyone has to make a buck or none of us would be here.
Hey Mike,
You know there is out there tuners selling tuning and unable to explain wy think happen eg "blow turbo/smoke limp mode/weird problems" and so on
Tuning TDI there is a large liability involved were limit are very narrow, too easy to make mistakes and get those cheap DIY lover to start and tune from this ideas.
It is a great think have someone here start to make better and give Extra work after all the F***K the are create.
I know i sleep at night very well, but many after fallow cheap info at the end it would be very costly...
INFO about "how to tune" ?
Waste valuable time to "this" is pointless
Best
Tonino
 

thebigarniedog

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Location
Fail Command (Central Ohio)
TDI
1998 Jetta tdi
Just some general observations and a question about this thread.

FROM WHAT THE OP HAS SAID IN THIS THREAD:

The OP is from the BMW world and claims to be a successful tuner there. He posits that tunes for BMWs go for $1200ish per tune. He post that he has sold his BMW and is looking to enter the VW tdi world to tune tdis.

SOME GENERAL OBSERVATIONS

There are obviously a heck of a lot more BMWs floating around that can be tuned then vw tdis; The market commands a higher price (in the range of 4 times higher for a BMW tune then a tdi tune) per the OP's statement.

MY QUESTION:

So why would a successful BMW tuner give it all up and leave the BMW scene for the tdi one? Perhaps a call to Bullsh*t is necessary on this thread?
 
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