Tuning a 2.0TDI 140 PPD with DSG

Jasengine

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Location
UK
TDI
Mk6 Golf GTD DSG 200bhp CBBB
Has anyone had a successful remap with the BKP engine with a DSG box?
I have the Darkside EGR & cooler delete with the turbo hard pipe kit. Turbo Dynamics hybrid turbo good for 220bhp (GT22 billet compressor, trimmed turbine, upgraded thrust bearing etc).
I had a remap some years ago, but unknown at the time the vacuum valve box response was slow. I have recently changed it to a N75 valve and the boost response is very quick, but the tune is unstable and has strange over-boost and fuelling under certain load and rpm conditions, which I have to keep an eye on the boost gauge to correct. I've checked for a sticking VNT actuator, but on installing the standard MAP, shows perfect boost response under all revs and load conditions, so I don't see the hybrid turbo being an issue.
Two independent well known tuners have declined to tune this setup, one because it has a 'hybrid' turbo and the other because of the extent of the programming for 4bar MAP etc (not installed yet)... Maybe the DSG has an influence on tuning here?
So I am now running the standard MAP which is slow and boring together with the engine check lights flashing at me! This can't be a 'one-off' impossible setup....can it?? Or does everyone keep clear of the BKP with DSG and hybrids :confused:
 
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adamss24

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Location
Great Britain
TDI
audi a4 2.5 tdi 98 quatrro 6speed
Ditch the rubbish TD hybrid and get a serious turbo in there ! I see they still selling them archaic gt compressors and still clip the turbine blades to stop boost creep! You dont need a 4 bar map sensor with that turbo, it wont be pushing any more than 1,5-1.7 bar of boost ! And for your information, almost every VAG VNT turbo has a "upgraded" trust bearing !
 

Jasengine

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Location
UK
TDI
Mk6 Golf GTD DSG 200bhp CBBB
Interesting comments guys.
It's mapped for 1.79barand a wot will settle at 1.7. It will spike to 2.2bar though.
I had a 1756 hybrid from TD may years ago on a 1.9 ALH, with no boost issues what so ever. So I am a little sceptical about this labeling of hybrids being crap. Perhaps they've been given a bad name by cheap builds off eBay??
 

adi_mazilu

Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Location
Romania
TDI
Golf5 2.0tdi 4motion DSG
Has anyone had a successful remap with the BKP engine with a DSG box?
I have the Darkside EGR & cooler delete with the turbo hard pipe kit. Turbo Dynamics hybrid turbo good for 220bhp (GT22 billet compressor, trimmed turbine, upgraded thrust bearing etc).
I had a remap some years ago, but unknown at the time the vacuum valve box response was slow. I have recently changed it to a N75 valve and the boost response is very quick, but the tune is unstable and has strange over-boost and fuelling under certain load and rpm conditions, which I have to keep an eye on the boost gauge to correct. I've checked for a sticking VNT actuator, but on installing the standard MAP, shows perfect boost response under all revs and load conditions, so I don't see the hybrid turbo being an issue.
Two independent well known tuners have declined to tune this setup, one because it has a 'hybrid' turbo and the other because of the extent of the programming for 4bar MAP etc (not installed yet)... Maybe the DSG has an influence on tuning here?
So I am now running the standard MAP which is slow and boring together with the engine check lights flashing at me! This can't be a 'one-off' impossible setup....can it?? Or does everyone keep clear of the BKP with DSG and hybrids :confused:
I can help you :)
 

adamss24

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Location
Great Britain
TDI
audi a4 2.5 tdi 98 quatrro 6speed
Trimming the turbine is a cheap way of trying to hide a poorly matched compressor to a small turbine and limit the surge- wont do much to stop spikes ! Either get a new,matched turbine or get a gtb turbo and tune that !

Alh has a archaic edc15 ecu with a lot less maps for n75 that's why you felt no issues then with the larger hybrid...edc16 is a lot more sofisticated and reacts a lot quicker compared with edc15...

As i've built over 100 hybrids i can guarantee you that the td hybrid is crap, seen their work before...had a crap one on a 2.5 v6 tdi (!), also every garret turbo from gt1749v on has an upgraded trust bearing ! They're passing 20 years old tech as being novelty !
 
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adamss24

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Location
Great Britain
TDI
audi a4 2.5 tdi 98 quatrro 6speed
I know Bobby, that's why i told the OP to change his turbo before doing any more work or spending any more money ! Years ago i bought a car from a fellow forum member, it had large poorly setup nozzles and a md240 turbo from the usual "suspects" ! It was a non runner and upon removal of the turbo i found turbine wheel damaged by shards of metal from failing exhaust manifolds ! I phoned TD and said that i wanted to repair the turbo and they said they don't replace the turbine, they just "clip" the blades to improve spool ! They said i need a new turbo at a tune of over 1200 + VAT ! I just asked why they charge so much for just a compressor change ? It wasn't anything exotic, as you said just stock 56mm compressor... Few months after the incident, two guys i know left Turbo Dynamics and started their own business - Tdi Turbos - then a few years later they've split and each went their way ! One is Craig at tdi turbos and the other is Adam Springer Davidson at Pioneering Performance -which i strongly recommend the OP to get in touch with to fix his poor hybrid !
 

Bobby Singh

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2009
Location
England,Middlesex
TDI
Audi 3.0 TDI
Adam's manifold/2260 do work well -

Managed to get this from a 1.9 stock injectors etc
Very low emp

Its more geared up for 300hp plus (due to runner sizes) - soon will have larger injectors.


 

ibizatdi130

Active member
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Location
FRANCE
TDI
SEAT Ibiza ASZ tdi 130- SEAT leon bkd tdi 140
on my seat leon bkd I use a 4 in 1 manifold found on ebay with gtb1756vk with mfs cw. Before I have try gt1852v and it was a crap, next gtb1756 mfs with stock manifold I was having surge problems at low rpm and bad power at hight rpm
now with that 4 in 1 manifold and the same gtb1756vk mfs work realy better than with stock manifold, no surge and spool very quickly at low rpm. I have wraped it and painted with silicon


 

ibizatdi130

Active member
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Location
FRANCE
TDI
SEAT Ibiza ASZ tdi 130- SEAT leon bkd tdi 140
my tuning files is not realy perfect, I need to spend more time on it but but the car work realy better than with stock manifold



Mardi,26,Mars,2019,22:10:20:50725-VCID:74E653DF177D0AE69E-8020,Version VCDS: FRM 17.8.0,Version données: 20170721 DS276.2
03G 906 021 LL,,R4 2.0L EDC G000SG 9185,

,Groupe A:,'011,,,,Groupe B:, Non actif,,,,Groupe C:, Non actif
,,Engine Speed,Boost Pressure,Boost Pressure,Charge Pressure,,,,,,,,,,
,Repère,(G28),(specified),(actual),Control Duty Cycle,Repère,,,,,Repère,,,,
Marqueur,temps, /min,,, %,temps,,,,,temps,,,,
,0.11,1659,1032.0,1080.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,0.27,1638,1032.0,1068.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,0.44,1638,1032.0,1068.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,0.60,1617,1032.0,1068.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,0.75,1596,1032.0,1056.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,0.91,1575,1032.0,1056.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,1.08,1554,1032.0,1044.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,1.24,1533,1032.0,1044.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,1.40,1512,1032.0,1044.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,1.55,1512,1032.0,1044.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,1.72,1491,1032.0,1032.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,1.88,1470,1032.0,1032.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,2.03,1449,1032.0,1032.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,2.19,1428,1032.0,1020.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,2.37,1407,1032.0,1020.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,2.52,1386,1032.0,1020.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,2.68,1386,1032.0,1020.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,2.83,1365,1032.0,1008.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,3.01,1344,1056.0,1008.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,3.16,1323,1056.0,1008.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,3.32,1323,1068.0,1008.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,3.47,1323,1116.0,1008.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,3.64,1344,1248.0,1008.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,3.80,1323,1284.0,1008.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,3.96,1323,1284.0,1020.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,4.11,1344,1308.0,1032.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,4.29,1365,1308.0,1032.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,4.44,1365,1320.0,1044.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,4.60,1386,1332.0,1056.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,4.76,1407,1344.0,1068.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,4.93,1428,1404.0,1080.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,5.08,1449,1416.0,1092.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,5.24,1491,1512.0,1104.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,5.40,1512,1656.0,1128.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,5.57,1554,1692.0,1164.0,75.0,,,,,,,,,,
,5.72,1575,1740.0,1200.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,5.88,1617,1848.0,1236.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,6.04,1659,1992.0,1284.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,6.21,1701,2124.0,1332.0,75.8,,,,,,,,,,
,6.37,1743,2196.0,1392.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,6.52,1785,2244.0,1452.0,73.8,,,,,,,,,,
,6.68,1827,2244.0,1524.0,71.8,,,,,,,,,,
,6.85,1890,2256.0,1620.0,71.8,,,,,,,,,,
,7.01,1932,2532.0,1692.0,75.4,,,,,,,,,,
,7.17,1995,2724.0,1988.0,71.4,,,,,,,,,,
,7.32,2037,2760.0,2120.0,67.9,,,,,,,,,,
,7.49,2100,2796.0,2324.0,66.7,,,,,,,,,,
,7.65,2184,2832.0,2416.0,66.7,,,,,,,,,,
,7.81,2247,2868.0,2596.0,67.5,,,,,,,,,,
,7.96,2310,2880.0,2740.0,61.2,,,,,,,,,,
,8.13,2394,2904.0,2896.0,58.8,,,,,,,,,,
,8.29,2478,2928.0,2928.0,55.6,,,,,,,,,,
,8.44,2541,2940.0,3048.0,49.3,,,,,,,,,,
,8.60,2604,2940.0,3060.0,39.1,,,,,,,,,,
,8.77,2709,2940.0,3060.0,34.7,,,,,,,,,,
,8.93,2772,2940.0,3060.0,35.1,,,,,,,,,,
,9.09,2856,2940.0,3060.0,35.1,,,,,,,,,,
,9.24,2940,2940.0,3060.0,34.3,,,,,,,,,,
,9.41,3024,2940.0,3060.0,33.9,,,,,,,,,,
,9.57,3108,2940.0,3024.0,32.7,,,,,,,,,,
,9.73,3192,2940.0,3012.0,30.8,,,,,,,,,,
,9.88,3255,2940.0,3024.0,28.4,,,,,,,,,,
,10.06,3360,2940.0,3024.0,27.2,,,,,,,,,,
,10.21,3423,2940.0,3000.0,26.4,,,,,,,,,,
,10.37,3528,2940.0,2964.0,25.3,,,,,,,,,,
,10.53,3591,2940.0,2952.0,24.5,,,,,,,,,,
,10.70,3675,2940.0,2928.0,24.5,,,,,,,,,,
,10.85,3738,2940.0,2904.0,23.7,,,,,,,,,,
,11.01,3822,2940.0,2892.0,23.3,,,,,,,,,,
,11.17,3885,2940.0,2880.0,22.9,,,,,,,,,,
,11.34,3969,2940.0,2868.0,22.5,,,,,,,,,,
,11.49,4032,2940.0,2844.0,22.5,,,,,,,,,,
,11.65,3864,1080.0,2688.0,46.9,,,,,,,,,,
,11.81,3549,1056.0,2220.0,48.9,,,,,,,,,,
,11.97,3213,1056.0,1956.0,51.7,,,,,,,,,,
,12.13,2940,1044.0,1764.0,55.6,,,,,,,,,,
,12.29,2709,1044.0,1608.0,67.1,,,,,,,,,,
,12.44,2709,1044.0,1524.0,67.1,,,,,,,,,,
,12.61,2730,1044.0,1488.0,67.1,,,,,,,,,,
,12.78,2688,1044.0,1464.0,67.9,,,,,,,,,,
,12.93,2688,1044.0,1464.0,68.3,,,,,,,,,,
,13.09,2688,1044.0,1452.0,69.4,,,,,,,,,,
 

ibizatdi130

Active member
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Location
FRANCE
TDI
SEAT Ibiza ASZ tdi 130- SEAT leon bkd tdi 140
Your requested pressure ist till 2300rpm to high.
Set it down, max 100mbar than the Turbo can do.

yes I know that I need to work on my tune ;) but I'm too busy... I think I can also close the vnt a little bite more over 3000rpm, but this time have experienced some problems on this car, leaking gearbox, leaking tandem pump, leaking clutch mastercylinder etc... :( and I don't know if I want to spend time on that tune when will change for a gtd1756vrk soon...
 
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Jasengine

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Location
UK
TDI
Mk6 Golf GTD DSG 200bhp CBBB
Thanks for all your info. I'm guessing my setup is not ideal. I've had a tuner look into tuning and had come up against issues with 4bar map mapping and limp mode which would require a lot of work. Not sure what the details are but the Siemens ECU sounds different to the norm...
 

Jasengine

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Location
UK
TDI
Mk6 Golf GTD DSG 200bhp CBBB
What was problem with 4b map?
When first installed is threw an error code:

18000 - Altitude Sensor / Boost Pressure Sensor
P1592 - 007 - Implausible Correlation
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01010010
Fault Priority: 1
Fault Frequency: 3
Reset counter: 78
Mileage: 268694 km

This was sorted in the next map, but would stay in limp mode, but no warning lamps.

I should explain a bit better about the strange behaviour on the other tune I had. First I think the throttle peddle calibration has been made more sensitive. DSG will change up very soon in normal driving, more so than with the standard vw setup.
If I roll into the throttle, the boost will climb quickly but at the same time the engine will sound laboured and heavey smoke, boost will keep climbing to over 32psi, so I come off the throttle slightly and the boost will recover to a normal 26psi and the engine sounds as though it has cleared it's throat and full throttle can be applied all the way the the red line at ~26 psi. I can keep the power down through all the gears after the initial strangness. It seems like pulling from low revs upsets the initial fueling.

This is why I wanted a remap to sort all this out, but it now seems the turbo is sh!te and the siemens ecu is a pain to program!
 

duke21

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Location
Croatia
TDI
2.0 TDI BMN
First, error is because that tuner didnt made proper 4b map sensor linearisation. Second can be because file from ECU with and without dsg has many diferent maps. So may be that tuner had file from manual. I know because i made file for one friend who has a3 dsg ppd and first he said car acts weird. After i get proper file with dsg, car is good.
 
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