Netflix Special on VW - “Hard NOx”

DrgRnnr

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This will be the first episode of their new series called Dirty Money. It will be available to view starting this Friday, 1/26.

I expect this to release some previously not so public information about the whole debacle. It will also help shed light on why so many Opt-out's are holding strong to their decision to not accept the class action settlement.
 

Miss_Athanatos

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Looking forward to it!
 

DSL HED

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I've watched about half of it so far. Pretty good overall. The balls of some of the VW executives must be made of titanium.

Edit/Update: Watched the whole thing. No way in hell that I'll buy another VW now, especially after seeing the last 20 minutes of the episode. Pretty disturbing what they wanted to do to some monkeys.
 
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miningman

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Well worth watching but as my vw is a 2003 I'm not really affected , nor do I have a strong opinion on dieselgate. Certainly animal lovers will not like the monkey treatment. Perhaps I'm biased or uninformed, but as someone who worked in the underground mining industry, my colleagues and I were exposed to levels of NOx many times higher than anything in polluted LA or Mexico city ever endured. I think it fair to say the producers of this show have an agenda.
 

Miss_Athanatos

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miningman

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Propaganda is a good word. If an unbiased ambivalent member of the public, who had no special interest in vw etc etc, then watched episode 2 of the same series, i suspect that sub-conciously that member of the public would form a very negative view , just based on the implied association between vw and unscrupulous payday lenders.
 

Miss_Athanatos

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Propaganda is a good word. If an unbiased ambivalent member of the public, who had no special interest in vw etc etc, then watched episode 2 of the same series, i suspect that sub-conciously that member of the public would form a very negative view , just based on the implied association between vw and unscrupulous payday lenders.
Propaganda is a neutral concept. In the case of this documentary, the propaganda is opposed to major logic (criteriology), and therefore is extrinsically evil. I appreciate the factual information, but supposed-documentarians need to leave off the editorializing. :)
 

Rico567

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I'm quite disappointed in the propaganda in the documentary, but the history is interesting.
That was the source of my problem with it— I've been following Dieselgate here on TDIClub since the story first broke, and I didn't see a single factual thing in that documentary that I hadn't already learned by reading here and following links various contributors put up.
If I didn't already appreciate TDIClub (which I do) that -by itself- would do it.
 

Mythdoc

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Um...facts or propaganda that VW lied again and again to the regulators to cover up their brazen disregard for our national laws? And all for a few dollars per car, and a few more dollars in holding down warranty payouts. They could have legally solved every challenge presented by the emissions regulations, but in case after case, they chose not to.

The only part of the documentary that bothered me a little was the discussion of city smog. They left the impression that little diesel cars are a big factor in it. (Even there, that is apparently true in Europe, where diesel is much more prevalent.) The claims of premature deaths did not arise from the film, but have been put forward by other organizations. The documentary did not fact check that claim, but that was not their brief.
 
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Rico567

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Um...facts or propaganda that VW lied again and again to the regulators to cover up their brazen disregard for our national laws? <snip>
No, that was (part) of the factual part. Assuming we both watched the same documentary, maybe you missed the propaganda portions the first time. Don't worry about it, you got (or maybe, like me, you already knew) the important stuff. But the relevant material was all mixed up with things that weren't, and that is a waste of my time.
 

turbocharged798

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I did not watch it and can already guess it's a liberal propaganda piece of crap, just like CARB and the EPA who made regulations that were impossible to meet.
 

Miss_Athanatos

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One very interesting point that was simply made in passing: Dr. Ayala, Deputy Director of CARB claimed during the documentary interview that CARB was conducting emissions testing on and correspondence with VW regarding TDI Clean Diesels for 60 months. To my recollection he said it while conveying the information that CARB kept finding that the TDIs being tested failed to meet the emissions levels they certified with the EPA.

60 months. That's five years. That information really does not conform with CARB beginning testing and correspondence with VW in 2014 as a result of the U of WV study. The EPA Notice of Violation of the CAA was submitted to VW in Sept. 2015. If you roll the clock back 60 months, that's 2010. So VW was snowing CARB since 2010? and Why would CARB put up with that?

-- Nicole
 

Miss_Athanatos

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Put up with it? I'm amazed that CARB would admit it!
I was trying to imply exactly what you're pointing out. I got the sense (and this is totally subjective interpretation) that the reason Dr. Ayala got so indignant with Stuart Johnson about the undisclosed defeat device once Stuart Johnson revealed the defeat device was that there may have been? good reason to believe from very near the beginning of the testing that there was an undisclosed defeat device and that the lengthy testing and correspondence period would reflect badly on CARB.
 
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bizzle

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It's not that it would reflect poorly on CARB but rather that, despite conspiracy theories to the contrary, CARB and EPA are not in the business to shut vehicle sales down. They are working with, not against, the car manufacturers and this should be evident by the fact that they allow the manufacturers to self-regulate for the most part.

So when something like failed tests occur, the first step is to figure out what is going on. If VW is shrugging their shoulders and saying they don't know what is wrong with their components but that they just aren't cleaning up to the levels the engineers designed them to, but then it turns out that was a lie all along that's going to anger most anyone.

That said, I think you are looking at the wrong timeline. It's probably referring to the time between when VW diesels stopped being sold under the old rules and when Clean Diesels were launched in the USA under the newest regs.
 

Rico567

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I was trying to imply exactly what you're pointing out. <snip> good reason to believe from very near the beginning of the testing that there was an undisclosed defeat device and that the lengthy testing and correspondence period would reflect badly on CARB.
This was one of the few amusing segments in the documentary, when Mr.CARB talks about how they were just trying to give VW the benefit of the doubt (for FIVE YEARS), but in all that time what is probably the largest and best equipped vehicle emissions regulatory agency on the planet was unable to put together a testing regime that produced a smoking gun, which was finally left to a contractor at WVU. Yep, pretty embarrassing........
 

ezshift5

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.......ambivalence would best describe my 'dieselgate' view....................

Add on my pondering the accuracy and merit of EPA's pollution control standards......

........and I begin to think of a long ago James Coburn, Lee Remick film where Burgess Meredith indicates "Yes, murder IS wrong - - - but it's just not THAT wrong..............."

It may be apparent that my 2013 JSW TDI 6M - even with its' HPFP/DPF concerns - is engendering fond recollection within my memory banks..................

ez
 

Miss_Athanatos

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This was one of the few amusing segments in the documentary, when Mr.CARB talks about how they were just trying to give VW the benefit of the doubt (for FIVE YEARS), but in all that time what is probably the largest and best equipped vehicle emissions regulatory agency on the planet was unable to put together a testing regime that produced a smoking gun, which was finally left to a contractor at WVU. Yep, pretty embarrassing........
Yes, and my suspicions, of course, are based upon the assumption that in those five years they were conducting testing similar to the WVU study (on dyno, as well as on road). The context of that whole segment would make no sense otherwise, it seems to me.

So, I agree with you.
 

Miss_Athanatos

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It's not that it would reflect poorly on CARB but rather that, despite conspiracy theories to the contrary, CARB and EPA are not in the business to shut vehicle sales down. They are working with, not against, the car manufacturers and this should be evident by the fact that they allow the manufacturers to self-regulate for the most part.

So when something like failed tests occur, the first step is to figure out what is going on. If VW is shrugging their shoulders and saying they don't know what is wrong with their components but that they just aren't cleaning up to the levels the engineers designed them to, but then it turns out that was a lie all along that's going to anger most anyone.

That said, I think you are looking at the wrong timeline. It's probably referring to the time between when VW diesels stopped being sold under the old rules and when Clean Diesels were launched in the USA under the newest regs.
Yes, that could possibly have been what was going on and my timeline could be wrong. However, that explanation does not reconcile in the least to the context of the interview with Dr. Ayala in the documentary. You can't have Dr. Ayala say they were testing and corresponding on the Clean Diesels (2009+ model years) for 60 months and then roll that testing back onto the 1.9/2.0 L 4 cyl. DIs VW put on the market starting in 1995, since those did not have an aux system to limit NOx. If you're going to bump the 60 mos. back to 2007 when the emissions standards were restricted further, that still doesn't make sense in the context, since again, the TDIs didn't have aux systems to limit NOx until 2009. :)
 

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Of all the takeaways from the documentary, “what did CARB know and when did they know it” seems like small potatoes. The fixation with that aspect on the part of posters certainly says volumes about, well, nothing but their own fixed political views. Clap yourselves on the fanny, friends, you all agree that “you don’t trust the gubment. It sux.”

To return to an earlier observation, however, I think it is junk science to release a figure of “x many persons dying prematurely due to an increase of n in atmospheric nitrous dioxide levels.” There is no mathematical way to structure such a study to exclude other variables, other than the monkeys in the gas chamber type approach, which (laying aside the fact that it is culturally taboo) would have to be done over years to be representative. No, some academic being paid by a private organization just applied “guesswork” and arrived at a number. And even though I consider myself an environmentalist and a proponent of clean air, this type of junk science drives me up a wall. Same tactics as the anti-smoking crusaders used.
 

Mythdoc

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They lost me in this "shockumentary" when they pulled a Godwin* less than five minutes in. This video contributed nothing to my understanding of Dieselgate.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
The reference to VW’s original ties to Adolph you-know-who are factual, but the fact that the documentary ended with VW paying to put monkeys in a gas chamber certainly created a nice symmetry. Too bad you don’t enjoy irony.
 

Miss_Athanatos

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To return to an earlier observation, however, I think it is junk science to release a figure of “x many persons dying prematurely due to an increase of n in atmospheric nitrous dioxide levels.” There is no mathematical way to structure such a study to exclude other variables, other than the monkeys in the gas chamber type approach, which (laying aside the fact that it is culturally taboo) would have to be done over years to be representative. No, some academic being paid by a private organization just applied “guesswork” and arrived at a number. And even though I consider myself an environmentalist and a proponent of clean air, this type of junk science drives me up a wall. Same tactics as the anti-smoking crusaders used.
To my knowledge, if a person dies of respiratory illness or defect before what medical professionals have decided is the end of his life, it is typically classed as an NOx caused ozone-related death.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature22086

That link will take you to an abstract for a study in which NOx emissions are related to human health. I personally think it is "guesswork", like you.
 

kjclow

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The reference to VW’s original ties to Adolph you-know-who are factual, but the fact that the documentary ended with VW paying to put monkeys in a gas chamber certainly created a nice symmetry. Too bad you don’t enjoy irony.
I've not watched the episode yet but find the monkey reference a little disturbing just because of how it appears to have been set up. However, after reading up a little on it, it appears that it was well sanctioned and approved by the car manufacturers and the scientific bodies that should have all stood up and walked away from the proposal of the test. Here's the CNN article link: http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/29/investing/volkswagen-daimler-bmw-monkey-testing-diesel/index.html
 

kjclow

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Of all the takeaways from the documentary, “what did CARB know and when did they know it” seems like small potatoes. The fixation with that aspect on the part of posters certainly says volumes about, well, nothing but their own fixed political views. Clap yourselves on the fanny, friends, you all agree that “you don’t trust the gubment. It sux.”

To return to an earlier observation, however, I think it is junk science to release a figure of “x many persons dying prematurely due to an increase of n in atmospheric nitrous dioxide levels.” There is no mathematical way to structure such a study to exclude other variables, other than the monkeys in the gas chamber type approach, which (laying aside the fact that it is culturally taboo) would have to be done over years to be representative. No, some academic being paid by a private organization just applied “guesswork” and arrived at a number. And even though I consider myself an environmentalist and a proponent of clean air, this type of junk science drives me up a wall. Same tactics as the anti-smoking crusaders used.
While I agree with your overall post, that last statement defeated the complete thought. As the child of a life long smoker, I can tell you that the health effects are real and the tobacco companies did some really nasty stuff to help create and feed addictions.
 

Mythdoc

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While I agree with your overall post, that last statement defeated the complete thought. As the child of a life long smoker, I can tell you that the health effects are real and the tobacco companies did some really nasty stuff to help create and feed addictions.
Oh, no doubt, no doubt. But the science allegedly quantifying the effects of second hand smoke into numbers of casualties was deeply flawed. A second wrong not making a right. Similar to this diesel case.
 
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