Cheap(er) oil changes

New to diesels, VW and TDI's. Now own a 2005.5 Jetta TDI coming due to (my) first oil change. Have read a bit on this forum and was considering ordering a change kit involving Total Quartz Ineo MC3 5w30, a Mann filter, and a drain plug. If I buy two and ship to my home it will cost about $54 (each) less if I order more, because shipping per kit would be less. The VW dealer I contacted is doing it for $70 +tax. give or take $20 for labor. Anyone got a better (read cheaper) way to do a proper oil change, with the right stuff for less? I'm not sure 20 bucks is worth the hassle.

I would agree with you that $20 doesn't justify the hassle....oil change plus clean-up plus associated nosing around takes me about an hour, and my time is worth a lot more than $20/hr. But for most of us its not about saving money, its about knowing the job was done right and maintaining some involvement with the guts of our cars. If that doesn't describe you, then paying to have it done makes perfect sense.

night mission said:

New to diesels, VW and TDI's. Now own a 2005.5 Jetta TDI coming due to (my) first oil change. Have read a bit on this forum and was considering ordering a change kit involving Total Quartz Ineo MC3 5w30, a Mann filter, and a drain plug. If I buy two and ship to my home it will cost about $54 (each) less if I order more, because shipping per kit would be less. The VW dealer I contacted is doing it for $70 +tax. give or take $20 for labor. Anyone got a better (read cheaper) way to do a proper oil change, with the right stuff for less? I'm not sure 20 bucks is worth the hassle.

Click to expand...

While what you are saying makes sense, I think it really depends on your time horizon.

So for example, you can get stuff shipped given a certain $ amount. Indeed I have gotten 10 pack Mann filters @ 4.50 per shipped.

Depending on whom you talk with, the recommendation can range from
1. change drain plug and washer
2. just the washer
3. re-use the washer and drain plug.
4. I have never had it off. I use an evacuation unit. 2 you may have heard 1. Pela 2. Mity Vac

Agains same thing for oil. Some will include shipping. I am sure the Total Ineo MC3 5w30 is VW 505.01?, PD engine.

There are threads that talk of using Mobil One 5w40 which is not PD specified but almost all acknowledge, it is one of the great oils for your PD engine, albeit not specified for the PD. It gives great bang for the buck. Another grey area is that 5w30 oils are really not good for your PD despite it being the new back ward compatible specification (among other things 45 to 75 % greater wear).

So for example, you can use any one of three Mobil One oils from your local Pep Boys 1. Mobil One 5w40 TDT 2. Mobil One ESP 5w30 VW 507.00 3. Mobil One ESP 5w40 MB 229.51. Two utilities here 1. locally available 2 not a lot of stock sitting on your shelf (think of a L of oil as a $10 dollar bill sitting on a shelf by how many L's) disadvantage 1 pay local taxation.

I use Mobil One 5w40 in a 03 TDI and have for 130,000 miles @ 20-25k OCI's. (1. better protection overall, 2.cheaper 3. no need for low saps)

I also use Total INEO 5w30 VW 507.00 because of warranty compliance. Afterwords, I will most likely switch to the Mobil One ESP 5w40 MB 229.51 specification.

All the best let us know what you decide.

Just make sure that whoever will be doing the service work has more than just half a clue........or you'll be sorry sooner or later.

Do not use a 5w30, use a 5w40 oil. I like Mobil-1 Turbo Diesel Truck oil but I don't believe in my owner's manual.

Thank you to all with advice. I have ordered a filter pack and will make a couple of more passes through the (never ending ) debate over " 505/01 complaint vs 505.01 equivalent or better". Stopped by Wally World today to see what was on the shelf and saw a lot of "almost" 505.01, just not on the label. Probably will do the Mobil 1 5w40 diesel truck product from WW unless I find Pep Boys either cheaper or carrying a true "505.01" at a reasonable price.
Looking forward to my first foray into basic Jetta TDI maintenance. Any suggestions appreciated!!

If 505.01 is not on the bottle it's not a suitable oil.

The fact you only change it every 10K miles is what makes it "cheap."

The question is, is he changing it every 5K or every 10K?

I would recomend switching to M1 Turbo Diesel Truck and running 15K changes if he wants to lower his cost per mile in respect to oil changes.

Pull a sample at 15K and the odds are that he will safely be able to run 20K with a VERY nice reserve in respect to oil condition.

These cars were never meant to have the oil changed at 10K intervals much less every 5K. VW intended to be able to drive to as much as 30K (50,000 km) between oil and filter changes.

proof from VW? other than an usuers UOA.

Drivbiwire said:

The question is, is he changing it every 5K or every 10K?

I would recomend switching to M1 Turbo Diesel Truck and running 15K changes if he wants to lower his cost per mile in respect to oil changes.

Pull a sample at 15K and the odds are that he will safely be able to run 20K with a VERY nice reserve in respect to oil condition.

These cars were never meant to have the oil changed at 10K intervals much less every 5K. VW intended to be able to drive to as much as 30K (50,000 km) between oil and filter changes.

Click to expand...

Yeah but the countries where they do that, they have far better quality fuel.

However it's nice we agree that TDT is good in a PD.

fossill said:

Just make sure that whoever will be doing the service work has more than just half a clue........or you'll be sorry sooner or later.

Click to expand...

ditto- the dealers oftentimes still don't know what oil is called for

Drivbiwire said:

These cars were never meant to have the oil changed at 10K intervals much less every 5K. VW intended to be able to drive to as much as 30K (50,000 km) between oil and filter changes.

Click to expand...

Still, VW needs to go green that's why they can't encourage to change the oil more often. Seems like 10k intervals fro some PDs running poor quality american diesel fuel or biodiesel is blasting

Drivbiwire said:

The question is, is he changing it every 5K or every 10K?

I would recomend switching to M1 Turbo Diesel Truck and running 15K changes if he wants to lower his cost per mile in respect to oil changes.

Pull a sample at 15K and the odds are that he will safely be able to run 20K with a VERY nice reserve in respect to oil condition.

These cars were never meant to have the oil changed at 10K intervals much less every 5K. VW intended to be able to drive to as much as 30K (50,000 km) between oil and filter changes.

Click to expand...

X2

Couldn't have said it better. Run M1 TDT anywhere from 15-20K miles, rinse and repeat. Drive more worry less; my PD is purring along just fine close 130K miles, and chipped (RC1+). Great oil for the price, found almost everywhere. You won't be sorry.

andreigbs said:

my PD is purring along just fine close 130K miles, and chipped (RC1+).

Click to expand...

With by-pass filtration, right?

kcfoxie said:

Yeah but the countries where they do that, they have far better quality fuel.

However it's nice we agree that TDT is good in a PD.

Click to expand...

US Spec fuel is now on par with other countries except for fuel lubricity which a seperate and easily remedied issue.

US Spec fuel is generally less than 10ppm sulfur translating into EXTREMELY clean burning diesels in a proper state of tune.

The PD engines since the injectors are partially lubricated with engine oil have a nice advantage in respect to durability especially if you additize the fuel side of the pump.

hid3 said:

With by-pass filtration, right?

Click to expand...

You, sir, are correct!

Although probably most PDs could make it to 120-130K miles even running on non-505.01 oils (like Syntec).

But with the bypass filter system I'm hoping to make it to 500K miles on the original cam & lifter set; how's THAT for a long-term goal?

Drivbiwire said:

US Spec fuel is now on par with other countries except for fuel lubricity ...

Click to expand...

...and cetane.

This will certainly effect how the engine burns the fuel, and the combustion by-product, no?

Yes, in theory. I am not sure how you could tell, real world mpg and power differences. It is not like European D2 (ie., 50 cetane, etc) is available here to be able to A/B test. I have read in passing the law that states cetane has to be a min of 43(?) to be sold. Correction to 40 cetane noted.

So for example, I could not tell the difference when we went from LSD to ULSD. Now this is a range of between 500 ppm, 49 states, CA 140 ppm sulfur down to 15 ppm sulfur nominally delivered @ the pumps 5 to 7 ppm sulfur. I also could tell NOT tell when I used cetane boost (Primrose 405 C) on both also. Have I read that there are SUPPOSED to be differences, why yes.

minimum cetane in the US is 40. In Europe its at least 50.

typical cetane in the US is supposedly 43. 47 is considered Premium

tditom said:

minimum cetane in the US is 40. In Europe its at least 50.

typical cetane in the US is supposedly 43. 47 is considered Premium

Click to expand...

So the typical cetane boost (you can adjust dilution rates) is anywhere from 3 to 6 points. Again, I can't tell the difference. In addition, LSD had up to 500 ppm sulfur (49 states) and CA state was reputedly 140 ppm sulfur.

Out here in the west, IF they are selling so called "premium" D2, THEN I haven't seen it, neither typically @ places where I do fuel and untypically, where I fuel also. I regularly go to 12 states. (BC CN also)

..."In North America, most states adopt ASTM D975 as their diesel fuel standard and the minimum cetane number is set at 40, with typical values in the 42-45 range. Premium diesels may or may not have higher cetane, depending on the supplier. Premium diesel often use additives to improve CN and lubricity, detergents to clean the fuel injectors and minimize carbon deposits, water dispersants, and other additives depending on geographical and seasonal needs."...

http://www.answers.com/topic/cetane-number

So it sounds if one really wants "premium" D2 (and by the definition you cited), cheapest is to pour your own (PS, etc). In addition you KNOW what you are pouring into your tank.

lkchris said:

If 505.01 is not on the bottle it's not a suitable oil.

Click to expand...

That is incorrect. There are plenty of non-505.01 oils out there that are more than fine in a PD. M1 TDT and Shell Rotella T6 are two of them.

So very interesting debating the merits of US vs European fuel and oil specs. Interesting about the debate over oil used in the PD TDI engines. The last oil change I got before owning my TDI was one by a VW dealer in the PHX area where I bought the car. They used Castrol SLX SYN 5W/30 (50501). Thats how its listed on my invoice. According to the wags on this forum, 505.01 should be 5W/40. Not even sure if this meaningful to the debate, the previous owner (of my new 2005.5 TDI) has left with a qt of Mobil 1 0W/40 euro (something) on the container and VW compliant for 502 506 (I think?). I believe for emergency top ups.
So for us newbes it all a bit confusing ;.
Bottom line. Don't want to put anything in the car that will cause harm, but don't want to spend 70 bucks (or $50 it I can help it) for an oil change if I can do so for considerably less. Was assuming 5K oil changes. If buying 505.01 will allow 10K changes over Mobil 1 M1 Turbo 5W40, I'll spend twice as much, thank you. I bought a diesel to save money on running costs, as it is I 'm paying a premium for fuel that's cutting down the advantage over comparable gas Jetta's. None of my gas burners oil changes is costing me anywhere near what I expect my Jetta to cost me. I just want to keep some of the 45mpg savings rather than return it to anther oil company in a different way.

andreigbs said:

You, sir, are correct!

Although probably most PDs could make it to 120-130K miles even running on non-505.01 oils (like Syntec).

But with the bypass filter system I'm hoping to make it to 500K miles on the original cam & lifter set; how's THAT for a long-term goal?

Click to expand...

How much did you pay for the setup? Was it difficult to install? How often do you change your by-pass filters?

night mission said:

...Was assuming 5K oil changes. If buying 505.01 will allow 10K changes over Mobil 1 M1 Turbo 5W40, I'll spend twice as much, thank you...

Click to expand...

you got that a bit backwards: 505.01 is good for 10K mi intervals, M1 TDT is good for at least that long in most vehicles, according to the UOA most folks have collected.
IMO you can't go wrong with either one. (don't know if there's enough data on Rotella T6 yet)

tditom said:

...and cetane.

This will certainly effect how the engine burns the fuel, and the combustion by-product, no?

Click to expand...

Cetane can be tuned out.

Lower cetane reduces your combustion window due to longer ignition delay.

Most of the effects can either be tuned out or designed out of the motor (which they have done on US destined motors).

Higher cetane permits a slight advantage in terms of being able to design and tune in more efficiency and cleanliness however the overall benefit hasn't been argued effectively in favor of on our side of the pond.

Most people still think OTR engines are the only type of diesel on the road, so slow pokey and smokey all kind of jumble together, at least until that perception changes. So the pressure to change cetane is minimal until the benefits are truly realized in respect to a need to meet more stringent emissions and fuel economy standards.

night mission said:

So very interesting debating the merits of US vs European fuel and oil specs. Interesting about the debate over oil used in the PD TDI engines. The last oil change I got before owning my TDI was one by a VW dealer in the PHX area where I bought the car. They used Castrol SLX SYN 5W/30 (50501). Thats how its listed on my invoice. According to the wags on this forum, 505.01 should be 5W/40. Not even sure if this meaningful to the debate, the previous owner (of my new 2005.5 TDI) has left with a qt of Mobil 1 0W/40 euro (something) on the container and VW compliant for 502 506 (I think?). I believe for emergency top ups.
So for us newbes it all a bit confusing ;.
Bottom line. Don't want to put anything in the car that will cause harm, but don't want to spend 70 bucks (or $50 it I can help it) for an oil change if I can do so for considerably less. Was assuming 5K oil changes. If buying 505.01 will allow 10K changes over Mobil 1 M1 Turbo 5W40, I'll spend twice as much, thank you. I bought a diesel to save money on running costs, as it is I 'm paying a premium for fuel that's cutting down the advantage over comparable gas Jetta's. None of my gas burners oil changes is costing me anywhere near what I expect my Jetta to cost me. I just want to keep some of the 45mpg savings rather than return it to anther oil company in a different way.

Click to expand...

Perhaps what is not jumping out @ you are:

1. The conditions are so much better for much less soot formation !!!
2. the inter-relationships of the oil's ability to mitigate the effects of soot.

That was the reason for the "LSD 500 ppm to ULSD 15 ppm nominally delivered @ the pump" posting. There is a range of 97% (15/500 ppm to 99% LESS ppm sulfur (5/500 ppm) !!!! Oils like Mobil One TDT 5w40 were "built" to mitigate a much higher ppm sulfur fuel. So now that there is a range of 97 to 99% less, the oil can last that much longer !!??

So using my own advice ..."I use Mobil One 5w40 in a 03 TDI and have for 130,000 miles @ 20-25k OCI's. (1. better protection overall, 2.cheaper 3. no need for low saps) "...let's put some numbers to it.

5 qt @ $22 per container, Mobil One TDT 5w40 (WalMart)= 4.40 per qt * 4.5 qt= $19.80/25,000 miles

= cost per mile, lubricated: .000792 cents.

Now if I can get over my belt and suspenders mentality and go to 30,000 miles.... (aka .00066 cents cost per mile lubricated)

How much does it cost to do your current (gasser)cars? It might be telling to actually post those figures!!!

Let me post the 04 Honda Civic, this of course uses RUG which is 30-90 ppm sulfur or anywhere from 2 to 18 times dirtier than ULSD !!!! I run 20,000 miles OCI (oem oil filter change recommendation is @ 20,000 miles, but I leave the 2.11 cent cost out) Mobil One 5w20, 5 qt container @ $22 per,= 4.40 per qt * 3.5 qt =$15.40/20,000 miles OCI = .00077 cents per mile driven.

So as you can see, the TDI costs 2.8% more. Both run like the proverbial tops.

hid3 said:

How much did you pay for the setup? Was it difficult to install? How often do you change your by-pass filters?

Click to expand...

Paid about $200 for the kit, it included the filter as well. Installing it involves adding a feed line from the oil pressure sensor location, putting the adapted plate on the oil filter housing, running the clean return line to the VC via the oil fill hole. I did not drill and tap my cylinder head. All in all, took me about 2 hours with double and triple-checking.

I usually change bypass filters (about $35 each) after 2 OCIs. My OCI is anywhere from 15k-20k miles. The longest I've kept a filter is about 40k miles. I'm sure it could've gone longer, but I was changing oil type and viscosity, so I swapped it with a new one. I tried the 507 stuff for a few OCIs then switched to the M1 TDT and never looked back. My PD is running excellent.

As good as a 2 micron bypass oil filter is, there is another major factor @ work (in tandem): one is adding 25% to the oil sump's capacity ( 1 L to 1 qt TO 4L or 4.5 qt capacity). So for example JUST on the greater capacity one can add 25% to the OCI. The bypass system filters 10% of the oil more slowly to make it far cleaner and puts in 25% extra for a safety factor (lessens chance of oil starvation) The typical oil filter filters down to what .25 microns.

So if one does say (in my case) a 25,000 miles OCI * 25%= 6,250 miles or now 31,250 miles. So really a bypass oil filter does not have to be changed for @ least 2 cycles or 62,500 miles.

So if one is ULTRA conservative @ 10,000 miles * 25% = 2,500 miles or 12,500 miles OCI's. Add to that the 2 OCI bypass filter change= 25,000 miles.

As most folks know a 2 micron filter will actually render NEW oil CLEANER than sold over the counter. It will also keep it cleaner and for longer. When you add to that 25% more oil you are keeping MORE oil cleaner than new and for FAR longer.

Exactly the sort of things I considered when shelling out the $200 for the initial purchase. I thought with my TDI being a PD, the least I can do is feed it high-quality oil which is filtered down to microscopic levels and is being cycled less often through the engine.

I'm coming up on 130K miles soon, would like to do a cam & lifter inspection with some high-res pics. I hope everything will look like new in there....

night mission They used Castrol SLX SYN 5W/30 (50501). Thats how its listed on my invoice. According to the wags on this forum said:

should be[/i] 5W/40.

Click to expand...

I got the same in the last 2 OCs over here. The previous ones were with 5W40 Aral.

I did notice easier starts this winter ( -6F was the coldest this winter and it cranked for only about 2 seconds ), and somewhat improved FE.

The manual sais nothing about viscosity, as long as the 505.01 standard is met.
That said I'd not use 5W30 if I was living in, say Arizona, and be endowed with a lead foot (I am neither), but for NJ it should be quite fine.