Sound Off on Current Diesel Price

93celicaconv · Oct 31, 2018

I understand the seasonal aspects you describe.

Why, in Europe, is diesel less costly per gallon (or liter) than regular unleaded gasoline - which is opposite that seen in the US?

romad · Oct 31, 2018

93celicaconv said:
I understand the seasonal aspects you describe.

Why, in Europe, is diesel less costly per gallon (or liter) than regular unleaded gasoline - which is opposite that seen in the US?

Did Europe require the removal of sulfur from dieselas the EPA did here in these United States? That removal caused a drastic and permanent hike in the cost of diesel production.

93celicaconv · Oct 31, 2018

romad said:
Did Europe require the removal of sulfur from dieselas the EPA did here in these United States? That removal caused a drastic and permanent hike in the cost of diesel production.

While I can't tell you with certainty what the Europe regulations are for diesel fuel, what I can tell you is their pumps in Ireland and Scotland had ULSD and Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel labels on them. This gave me the impression we are comparing apples to apples regarding diesel fuel between the US and at least these 2 countries (where they have an inverse relationship on pricing between diesel and regular unleaded gasoline).

TornadoRed · Oct 31, 2018

93celicaconv said:
I understand the seasonal aspects you describe.

Why, in Europe, is diesel less costly per gallon (or liter) than regular unleaded gasoline - which is opposite that seen in the US?

Taxes. Gasoline (petrol) has been more heavily taxed than diesel for decades in most European countries, to discourage the use of the less-fuel-efficient internal combustion engines.

In the US the federal tax on diesel is slightly higher than on gasoline.

93celicaconv · Oct 31, 2018

TornadoRed said:
Taxes. Gasoline (petrol) has been more heavily taxed than diesel for decades in most European countries, to discourage the use of the less-fuel-efficient internal combustion engines.
In the US the federal tax on diesel is slightly higher than on gasoline.

Appreciate your response, but I don't buy it.

Taxes? Where I get my diesel (CENEX Roadmaster XL Premium), they also sell Fieldmaster XL Premium at an adjacent pump. Per CENEX, both fuels are identical (less the colored dye in the Fieldmaster). Fieldmaster is for non-road use, so it lacks the typical taxes that road diesel has. Fieldmaster at the pump was 28 cents/gallon lower than Roadmaster. That would put Fieldmaster at 51 cents/gallon higher than regular unleaded gasoline at the same fuel station. So I don't think taxes play as huge a roll here.

This all said, why does Europe have a completely different stance on emissions and fuel efficiency of internal combustion engines than the US (i.e.; why doesn't the US opt to support the higher combustion efficiency of diesel engines)? I suppose this is a topic covered elsewhere in this forum, just haven't spent time looking for it yet.

TornadoRed · Oct 31, 2018

The terminal price for diesel in Minnesota and Wisconsin ranges from about 48 to 50 cents/gallon over that of RBOB gasoline. So the difference between untaxed diesel and taxed gasoline should be less. Maybe it's local conditions, with especially high prices for off-road diesel, or maybe the local co-op members get a better price than is available to non-members.

romad · Oct 31, 2018

TornadoRed said:
In the US the federal tax on diesel is slightly higher than on gasoline.

Federal: $0.184/US gallon (3.785L) for gasoline/petrol; $0.244 for diesel

Here in California the state rates are:

$0.417 plus 2.25% state sales tax + local sales tax/gallon for gasoline;
$0.36 plus 13% state sales tax + local sales tax/gallon for diesel

tdiman · Oct 31, 2018

93celicaconv said:
Appreciate your response, but I don't buy it.

Taxes? Where I get my diesel (CENEX Roadmaster XL Premium), they also sell Fieldmaster XL Premium at an adjacent pump. Per CENEX, both fuels are identical (less the colored dye in the Fieldmaster). Fieldmaster is for non-road use, so it lacks the typical taxes that road diesel has. Fieldmaster at the pump was 28 cents/gallon lower than Roadmaster. That would put Fieldmaster at 51 cents/gallon higher than regular unleaded gasoline at the same fuel station. So I don't think taxes play as huge a roll here.

This all said, why does Europe have a completely different stance on emissions and fuel efficiency of internal combustion engines than the US (i.e.; why doesn't the US opt to support the higher combustion efficiency of diesel engines)? I suppose this is a topic covered elsewhere in this forum, just haven't spent time looking for it yet.

I’ll tell u why they Don’t want diesels because they’re more fuel efficient and less fuel consumption equals less tax dollars to repair the roads

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

romad · Oct 31, 2018

tdiman said:
I’ll tell u why they Don’t want diesels because they’re more fuel efficient and less fuel consumption equals less tax dollars to repair the roads

Then, like here in California, they divert the road money AWAY from road repair and construction into their pet projects. After doing that, the legislature and the governor ram through a massive fuel tax increase, promising none will be diverted. Funny thing though, included in the new law are provisions that siphon about 1/3 of the new taxes into pork barrel projects!

Fortunately, California has the referendum procedure so on Tuesday next week, a referendum on repealing the massive tax hikes will be on the ballot.

kjclow · Nov 1, 2018

93celicaconv said:
Appreciate your response, but I don't buy it.

Taxes?

Although this is not current (2010), it's the easiest graph I've found that shows fuel taxes by nation.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fuel_tax_in_OECD_countries,_2010..png

93celicaconv · Nov 1, 2018

That is a great chart to show why fuel prices in one country may differ from another. My issue I wanted to understand more is not why some countries have higher or lower fuel prices, but why many European countries have lower diesel fuel cost vs. gasoline, while in North America, the reverse is true. There is some part of taxes (fuels taxed differently) that explains part of this situation, but the magnitude of difference is not explained by taxes alone. I'm sensing many of us really don't know. Interesting that is a capitalist environment, we don't have answers that fit regarding fuel cost.

TornadoRed · Nov 1, 2018

93celicaconv said:
Interesting that is a capitalist environment, we don't have answers that fit regarding fuel cost.

I gave you a number of factors, but you chose to ignore them. There might be others, but I don't understand why you ignore the most obvious ones.

93celicaconv · Nov 1, 2018

TornadoRed said:
I gave you a number of factors, but you chose to ignore them. There might be others, but I don't understand why you ignore the most obvious ones.

That is not true at all, RornadoRed. I appreciated and respect the factors you provided. In my opinion, those factors explain a partial shift in costs between Europe and North America, but not the full extent of the shift (or difference), not even close.

But that is just my opinion. I'm glad your shared your thoughts. To me, the math in the factors don't equal the significance of the difference here. If it does to most, then I'll stop asking more about it here. But I do appreciate the inputs you provided on my questions, sincerely I do.

romad · Nov 1, 2018

93celicaconv said:
That is a great chart to show why fuel prices in one country may differ from another. My issue I wanted to understand more is not why some countries have higher or lower fuel prices, but why many European countries have lower diesel fuel cost vs. gasoline, while in North America, the reverse is true. There is some part of taxes (fuels taxed differently) that explains part of this situation, but the magnitude of difference is not explained by taxes alone. I'm sensing many of us really don't know. Interesting that is a capitalist environment, we don't have answers that fit regarding fuel cost.

Demand is lower in these United States than it is in Europe for autodiesel; gasoline/petrol demand is higher here so more of the latter is produced than of the former from each barrel of oil. That results in lower diesel supply than what demand there is.

TornadoRed · Nov 1, 2018

93celicaconv said:
That is not true at all, RornadoRed. I appreciated and respect the factors you provided. In my opinion, those factors explain a partial shift in costs between Europe and North America, but not the full extent of the shift (or difference), not even close.

This was your original question: "So what has happened in the US causing diesel prices to be higher than regular unleaded?"

I tried to answer that question -- not the topic of pump prices in Europe vs North America. I mainly addressed the seasonal pattern, since we are at the point on the calendar when diesel is at its highest compared to gasoline.

Anomious · Nov 1, 2018

$3.01 today in Baltimore...

I remember $.259!!

93celicaconv · Nov 1, 2018

93celicaconv said:
So what has happened in the US causing diesel prices to be higher than regular unleaded? Years ago in the US, diesel was always lower than regular unleaded, just as it was in Europe. Why did prices flip/flop in the US?

This was the context of my question - what changed? US & Europe diesel were both lower than gasoline/petrol. In Europe, still is. But it flipped in the US.

The principles of capitalism (prices dictated by laws of supply & demand), as the most recent response suggests, makes some sense, given the refineries are geared towards gasoline/petrol here, and not as much diesel. But, I haven't heard a shortage of diesel that impacts availability (some fuel stations can't get their tanks filled with diesel). Same with winter heating oil (very similar to diesel) - in recent years, no shortage in the US.
I think what I am trying to say here is US fuel pricing doesn't follow the laws of supply & demand - it follows some other principle. That concerns me.

I think I've stirred up enough folks in this forum for now, and I apologize for that. I'll stop further posts. Just frustrated how fuel prices here follow a somewhat different drum than the laws of supply & demand.

romad · Nov 1, 2018

93celicaconv said:
I think what I am trying to say here is US fuel pricing doesn't follow the laws of supply & demand - it follows some other principle. That concerns me.

It does somewhat but it is not as simple as you believe. I tried to address it above a little pointing out only ONE factor for the probable reason.

Besides, if the EU has its way, diesel & petrol will be outlawed there within 20 years so the question will be moot!

kjclow · Nov 2, 2018

93celicaconv said:
This was the context of my question - what changed? US & Europe diesel were both lower than gasoline/petrol. In Europe, still is. But it flipped in the US.

The principles of capitalism (prices dictated by laws of supply & demand), as the most recent response suggests, makes some sense, given the refineries are geared towards gasoline/petrol here, and not as much diesel. But, I haven't heard a shortage of diesel that impacts availability (some fuel stations can't get their tanks filled with diesel). Same with winter heating oil (very similar to diesel) - in recent years, no shortage in the US.
I think what I am trying to say here is US fuel pricing doesn't follow the laws of supply & demand - it follows some other principle. That concerns me.

I think I've stirred up enough folks in this forum for now, and I apologize for that. I'll stop further posts. Just frustrated how fuel prices here follow a somewhat different drum than the laws of supply & demand.

The biggest cost driver change for diesel is the now required hydrotreatment to remove the excess sulfur. Not sure how much it works out on a per gallon (or liter for our Northern friends) but it does slow down the process. Now instead of coming out of the stripper and into storage or straight to a pipeline, it has to go to a primary storage tank. Gets treated, tested, and then released. IIRC, pump prices going from LSD to ULSD jumped about 20 cents per gallon.

As far as pricing relating to supply and demand, remember that it is now worldwide supply and demand. A small burp in supply in China will have a ripple effect across the globe.

Shipping costs and restraints come in to play too. Cheapest way to move fuel is by pipeline and then by ocean tanker. Most expensive way is over the road trucking.

rotarykid · Nov 2, 2018

In metro-denver RUG is dropping(~$0.15 down in the last week & half
~$2.55-2.65 this morning)....

....While we are seeing no change is D2 prices(holding around ~$3 +/- 0.05)....

Rodmiser · Nov 2, 2018

Diesel $2.85 - $3.299 A Gallon

Reg. $2.349 - $2.999 A Gallon

K C MO- K C KS

TornadoRed · Nov 3, 2018

"U.S. crude oil production reached 11.3 million barrels per day (b/d) in August 2018, according to EIA’s latest Petroleum Supply Monthly, up from 10.9 million b/d in July. This is the first time that monthly U.S. production levels surpassed 11 million b/d. U.S. crude oil production exceeded the Russian Ministry of Energy’s estimated August production of 11.2 million b/d, making the United States the leading crude oil producer in the world.

Monthly crude oil production reached a record high in several states. Texas had the highest record level at 4.6 million b/d, followed by North Dakota at 1.3 million b/d. Other states that had record-high production levels were New Mexico, Oklahoma, Colorado, and West Virginia. Production in the Federal Offshore Gulf of Mexico also hit a record high of 1.9 million b/d."

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=37416

IndigoBlueWagon · Nov 5, 2018

I was in LA over the weekend and was pretty stunned by fuel prices in general. My favorite high benchmark station showed RUG at $4.29 and diesel at $4.19. But I saw another station (no diesel) with RUG at $4.49. Yikes.

romad · Nov 5, 2018

IndigoBlueWagon said:
I was in LA over the weekend and was pretty stunned by fuel prices in general. My favorite high benchmark station showed RUG at $4.29 and diesel at $4.19. But I saw another station (no diesel) with RUG at $4.49. Yikes.

Better hope that MA doesn't adopt CARB fuel specs. CARB Gasoline is only available from CA refineries, AFAIK so the supply is restricted. The GOOD things about CARB Diesel is the minimum 50 cetane and the soot reduction, but again it is only available from CA refineries. The refineries here in CA also seem to have a habit of coordinating their periodic "maintenance shutdowns" and "accidents" to reduce the supply so they can hike prices.

kjclow · Nov 7, 2018

Paid $2.89 last night in SC. I was in Orlando earlier this week and saw prices all over the place. One station was equal to Rug at $2.43 while another was a full dollar higher. Also didn't help that most stations post rug prices in red but alternate between non-ethanol gasoline and ULSD in green. Makes me happy I'm not heading that far south for Christmas.

tdi_514 · Nov 9, 2018

$1.39/Litre - Montreal Canada

Evil · Nov 9, 2018

93celicaconv said:
This was the context of my question - what changed? US & Europe diesel were both lower than gasoline/petrol. In Europe, still is. But it flipped in the US..

Diesel is dearer than petrol in the UK..

Today's pump price is £1.389/litre, US$2.46, (£6.30/UK gallon)

93/93

U4ick · Nov 11, 2018

I'm seeing a spread of over 80 cents a gallon between RUG and diesel....I feel like I'm being spread.

TornadoRed · Nov 11, 2018

U4ick said:
I'm seeing a spread of over 80 cents a gallon between RUG and diesel....I feel like I'm being spread.

The spread is always unfavorable at this time of year.

vincej · Nov 18, 2018

In Calgary today 1.32 per L vs 1.03 for regular gas. More than $1 gallon difference.

Sound Off on Current Diesel Price

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