End of Stick Shift?

Three out of 4 of my cars are manuals. My M-B 300D wasn't available with one, although I've contemplated doing a swap. The Mercedes is a pretty nice automatic, however, and not hampered by that pesky torque converter lockup.

Lots of cars that should be available with manuals aren't. Only base level Hondas and Toyotas, and only a few models, are available with manuals. And only smaller Korean cars are available with manuals. The Kia Optima, for example, isn't.

My 80 year-old mother refuses to drive an automatic. She had a manual RAV-4, oilhammer, and one of 75 manual Land Rover Discoveries imported to the US. Now drives Subarus because she can get manual transmissions in them. And my dog likes it fine. Keeps my smooth driving skills up.

I don't seem to get tired of driving manuals, but the limitations on cars available may get me in an automatic someday. I don't think there are any Mercedes-Benz manuals in the US. And very, very few Audis. Even BMW has fewer than they used to. Slim pickins.

FWIW, here's the complete list of MB manuals in the US:

SLK250

Yup.

Both have there advantages/places in the automotive world...

My TDI for sure I like the manual because the automatic option has a horrible reputation for reliability and gets ~10 MPG less than the manual option.

My Grand National I definately like the automatic - there's nothing like the 1-2 shift that you have to countersteer for

There are many fewer manual's available as mentioned previously. You can't get most vehicles in the USA with a manual anymore. If the customers don't buy them then why inventory the parts, have the platform designed around another significant change, etc? There's a lot more cost associated with all of this.

There have only been a couple automatic transmissions that really perform well and are almost always in the right gear at the right time
1) Allison behind an early 2007 Duramax
2) TH700R4 that I had behind my 5.7 Diesel that I spent countless hours tuning to get the shifts correct. Trimming governors, changing springs, adjusting TV valves, etc (what a pain)

- every other one is either one gear too high/low than I would choose if it were a manual.

There are and will continue to be a lot of manual transmissions sold outside of the USA for a long time - weather or not they will be available as new here in the USA (probably not ) is another issue.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

And only smaller Korean cars are available with manuals. The Kia Optima, for example, isn't.

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We get one... But we don't get the 2.4 engine at all, for fuel economy reasons.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Lots of cars that should be available with manuals aren't. Only base level Hondas and Toyotas, and only a few models, are available with manuals. And only smaller Korean cars are available with manuals. The Kia Optima, for example, isn't. .

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The base model Optima in Canada is! We just bought a Kia Forte Hatchback with a 6 speed manual, and our 2006 Mazda5 six seater minivan has a 5 speed manual, newer models are available with a 6 speed manual. I think Canada might just have slightly more manual transmission options than the USA. Still, you can't get anything with more than 6 seats in a manual transmission.

NarfBLAST said:

Still, you can't get anything with more than 6 seats in a manual transmission.

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In Europe, Volkswagen has the 19-seater "Hannover" Crafter van, 6-speed manual only
http://www.volkswagen-nutzfahrzeuge...-radstand-mit-ueberhang~2Fbus--hannover-.html

The Mazda 5 is a notable exception, also available with a manual in the US. And although I always lean towards manuals, the 8 speed automatic in the Touareg and some BMWs does sound appealing. I'd like to drive one.

I tried the 8-speed in a 320d recently... I can't say it's a horrible auto, but it likes shifting through those 8 gears a lot. Annoying. Maybe I'm just too old and stubborn to accept an automatic in my life.

I'd think around 8 gears or so that a CVT would make sense. Lots of really small parts.

I still say that automatic vehicles need far more insulation so one cannot hear the engine. If you can't hear it shift, then who cares if it's constantly hunting and pecking for the right gear?

I must say though that moving a trailer around in my yard this weekend left me wishing for a slushbox. Not a DSG with clutches, but a real torque convertor.

supton said:

I must say though that moving a trailer around in my yard this weekend left me wishing for a slushbox. Not a DSG with clutches, but a real torque convertor.

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I use the lawn tractor with its "hydrostatic" transmission for this purpose. Now that is a proper application for hydraulics. I was planning to buy a "transmatic" (manual transmission) grass cuttin tractor but then I thought I could get a much nicer machine that will be easier (safer) for the kids to start riding the mower with they are 10 or 12 years old. I prefer an automatic lawn tractor that will stop if you panic and let go of the accelerator, the manual transmission lawn tractors just keep going unless you push in the heavy clutch or jump off the seat.

My wife and I plan on teaching the kids to drive manual transmission cars when they get closer to 16. We figure the manual transmission car is safer because it forces you to be more engaged when driving, and leave more space in front when downshifting and engine braking towards an intersection, instead of riding the brakes and bumper of the car in front. I am sure many American parents think it is cruel/unnecessary/disadvantageous or even unsafe to force kids to learn to use the clutch and stick when they are learning to drive. I think it makes for a more skillful and courteous driver. edit: When you are not sure if you will get it into first gear without stalling you will also look for a bigger (safer) gaps in traffic before pulling out

Edit: another point I want to get across is that people just seem to care less about how things work anymore and just want to "get going" in general.

It's easier for manufacturers to control emissions and warranty issues with automatic transmissions, as the transmission computer can prevent the transmission from doing stupid things a drive could normally do with a manual transmission.

Also having a different transmission means another round of very expensive emission certification tests.

That and people are lazy.. Can't do your hair and hold a starbucks while shifting a manual trans.

Scott_DeWitt said:

That and people are lazy.. Can't do your hair and hold a starbucks while shifting a manual trans.

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You have obviously never been to Europe... I remember my biology teacher in the 90s arriving at the school driving his (manual) E30 BMW while shaving and drinking coffee from a ceramic mug EVERY DAY... as well as many, many girls who never thought twice about putting on their makeup while shifting gears.

NarfBLAST said:

My wife and I plan on teaching the kids to drive manual transmission cars when they get closer to 16. We figure the manual transmission car is safer because it forces you to be more engaged when driving, and leave more space in front when downshifting and engine braking towards an intersection, instead of riding the brakes and bumper of the car in front.

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I strongly agree with this. I taught my two sons to drive on manual transmission cars, and they both own manuals now (TDIs of course). My older son was reluctant, but now loves it. Both wouldn't drive anything else. Another nice thing about kids with manual transmission cars is it limits the number of friends that can drive them.

My daughter, on the other hand, refused to learn to drive in a manual, has had more accidents than I can count, and hasn't driven for the past two years. I'm hoping she keeps it that way. I think her biggest issue behind the wheel was distraction, and a manual helps prevent that.

I took a different approach with the mower. Push type, not self-propelled. Pretty safe.

German_1er_diesel said:

You have obviously never been to Europe... I remember my biology teacher in the 90s arriving at the school driving his (manual) E30 BMW while shaving and drinking coffee from a ceramic mug EVERY DAY... as well as many, many girls who never thought twice about putting on their makeup while shifting gears.

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Nope been there 6 times (primarily Germany). I don't recall seeing anyone do something other than drive (heaven forbid) while driving.

My favorite was a driver I had in Paris in a W124 Mercedes (diesel, manual) who was taking phone calls while driving around L'arc du Triomphe at 5 PM on a Friday. We survived.

DogParkGuy said:

Sales of new manual transmission cars are up significantly this year, on pace to hit the highest rate of sticks sold since 2006. That news must put smiles on the faces on the dwindling breed of drivers who prefer stick shifts over automatics. But the happiness might be short-lived, as analysts predict manual transmissions will basically disappear over the next couple of decades.
According to the EPA, in 1987, 29.1% of new vehicles sold in the U.S. had manual transmissions. By 2010, however, the rate had fallen to just 3.8%.
It appears as if something of a stick shift renaissance has since occurred, with 5.1% of new cars being manuals last year, and a new report from Edmunds indicating that stick shifts are on pace to account for roughly 7% of cars sold in 2012


Read more: http://moneyland.time.com/2012/08/0...ift/?iid=pf-main-lede&hpt=hp_t3#ixzz22PniKra6

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While it might sound dire, the answer to the question is it will take a lot more than that to wipe out a 20% passenger vehicle population of M/T's. On the used market most M/T's sell for a premium OVER its A/T counterparts.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

My favorite was a driver I had in Paris in a W124 Mercedes (diesel, manual) who was taking phone calls while driving around L'arc du Triomphe at 5 PM on a Friday. We survived.

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France is for starters... try a Greek taxi driver if you want thrill.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I strongly agree with this. I taught my two sons to drive on manual transmission cars, and they both own manuals now (TDIs of course). My older son was reluctant, but now loves it. Both wouldn't drive anything else. Another nice thing about kids with manual transmission cars is it limits the number of friends that can drive them.

My daughter, on the other hand, refused to learn to drive in a manual, has had more accidents than I can count, and hasn't driven for the past two years. I'm hoping she keeps it that way. I think her biggest issue behind the wheel was distraction, and a manual helps prevent that.

I took a different approach with the mower. Push type, not self-propelled. Pretty safe.

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What's really great is that my daughter knows how to drive the manual but her boyfriend doesn't. She can hold it over his head and I know that he will not be driving my car or truck anytime soon.

That's the thing. You drive a stick; you drive everything. You don't; you don't drive my car. Sounds good to me!

Since my first car (which was a standard) I have had 7 standards and 3 automatics. I prefer the standard.

I was sent to Ireland several times for work. Had to rent a car. filled out the forms and went to get my car. It was a standard. Not a big deal, but, the steering wheel is on the right and the shifter is on the left. Was odd driving that way, but I survived. I was there for only one week that time. Next time I remembered to ask for an automatic to keep it easier. They did not have or rent automatics.

I believe that there will always be standards transmissions for those who want one....until the cars drive themselves.

BeetleGo said:

That's the thing. You drive a stick; you drive everything. You don't; you don't drive my car. Sounds good to me!

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Ha...that's how mine works.

My wife doesn't like manuals, and won't learn to drive one. But on the plus side, she also doesn't drive my TDI.



I grew up on a farm. Everything is manual.

The Rabbit was in the shop once, and they gave us some huge GM car...not sure of the model, was back in 80's. Anyway, it was an automatic. And the first one I ever drove.

There was a bit of a slope behind where we park. Usually I'd just back up, and then throw it in 1st before it stopped rolling. Didn't work so well with the automatic. It made some nice grinding noises....going from reverse to drive while it was still rolling backwards.

Interesting the DSG on our GTI has no problems with this. Knowing that it's more like a standard than the other automatics out there, I played around with it a bit to see what I could and couldn't do. No problems yet.

BeetleGo said:

You don't; you don't drive my car.

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Manual trans skills or not, NO ONE drives my car but me.

The people I know who drive a stick are more than welcome to drive my car. They're the type of people who know how to drive well, and I don't have a problem letting such folk drive my car. Some have even taught it a thing or two~!

All though I have nothing but stick shift cars and trucks I see the point of the automatics they can be controlled electronically and interfaced with engine management producing better fuel economy with higher gearing and consistent throttle. I have a 2011 Tacoma and it was a little hard to find with the 6 cyl. and 6 spd gear box it EPA rating is 2 MPG lower then the automatic. At this point I think it is becoming more expensive to build a standard then an automatic due to the numbers. They are becoming more fuel efficient then a stick (more efficiency better emissions) and more people want them I believe the day is coming when to only thing you will be able to buy with a stick will be the very bottom end cars that fit a nitch.

White Crow said:

They are becoming more fuel efficient then a stick (more efficiency better emissions)

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I think that's mostly because of test cycle used in the US (and similarly NEDC used in Europe) mandates the use of specific gears during some portions of the test vs. the automatic that just shifts whenever it wants. If you have similar gearing in an automatic vs. a manual and a skilled driver, the manual will still be better.
Looking on fuel economy logging websites like Spritmonitor.de, the real world numbers nearly for every car are better for the manual transmission version.

Of course if your daily commute is modeled after the EPA fuel economy test procedure, an automatic transmission might be the better choice.

I've been driving my Mercedes all this week as I seem to be in the mood to drive a slow, soft car with an automatic. It's the antithesis of modern controls, vacuum operated 4 speed with no torque converter lockup. Works beautifully. And I filled the car yesterday, 34.2 MPG. Maybe autos aren't all bad.

German_1er_diesel said:

I think that's mostly because of test cycle used in the US (and similarly NEDC used in Europe) mandates the use of specific gears during some portions of the test vs. the automatic that just shifts whenever it wants. If you have similar gearing in an automatic vs. a manual and a skilled driver, the manual will still be better.
Looking on fuel economy logging websites like Spritmonitor.de, the real world numbers nearly for every car are better for the manual transmission version.
Of course if your daily commute is modeled after the EPA fuel economy test procedure, an automatic transmission might be the better choice.

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There's a reason why automakers put upshift lights on cars (the Mk6 cars even have upshift and I believe downshift indication), and it ain't to tell real buyers when to shift.

It's to tell the EPA testers when to shift. If the car tells the EPA tester to shift, the EPA predefined shift points aren't used.

White Crow--- i am guessing that you mean it is more expensive to build a manual because so few are sold here? (mass production) you have to remember that the take rate for the rest of the world is the exact opposite of here in the U.S. I doubt this will change in my lifetime or yours. while i was in Bogota, a city of 10 million, i met a guy who says his family owns the only transmission shop in the city that works on automatic transmissions. now, whether or not that is true, i kind of doubt but it is probably one of ten or twenty. my point is, there will always be manual transmissions, if the automakers choose to sell them here or not is a completely different question.

ciao,
waltz

bhtooefr said:

There's a reason why automakers put upshift lights on cars (the Mk6 cars even have upshift and I believe downshift indication), and it ain't to tell real buyers when to shift.
It's to tell the EPA testers when to shift. If the car tells the EPA tester to shift, the EPA predefined shift points aren't used.

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It's the same for the European cycle. My 2008 118d was one of the first BMWs with the full up/downshift indicators. Of course it also got an all-new engine, start/stop, active louvers behind the grille, low-voscosity transmission oil, on-demand alternator etc...

Earlier 118ds are rated at 5.6 l/100km, newer ones are rated at 4.5 l/100km. I wonder how it would do without the shift indicator.

The trick will be, if the models that contain manuals will be sold here. Already, plenty of models that are US-unique, and don't have a manual.

Even in Europe, the take rate for DCTs is climbing. So, it may only be developing market "hey, it's better than a 125 cc scooter" cars that could never pass NHTSA testing that get manuals. (And, given that people are going from 125 cc scooters, CVTs may be more common on those in the near future.)