Problem after R32 front brake upgrade- please help diagnose

Addamsonflint

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Location
Columbus OH
TDI
1999.5 Jetta
Hey everyone,
I had an unexpected issue at the end of my R32 brake upgrade- if anyone has some possible sources I could trouble-shoot, I would appreciate it.
So, current-state is- I upgraded my TDI with VR6 axles and spindles, and R32 front brakes. Everything went great, and without any issues, which was surprising and concerning at the same time, just because you usually encounter at least one issue that comes out of left-field during most projects.
Then, I go to put my wheels back on. I already run 18's, so I didn't anticipate any fitment issues. I put my passenger wheel put on, and saw that I had about the most microscopic of clearance space between my caliper and my spokes- about 1-2mm. But they cleared, and rolled smooth, so I was happy and relieved.
But then I went to put on my driver-side wheel, and my spokes were tight against the caliper. This is where my issue lies.
I installed my new axles to spec- 18 foot-lbs on the allen-bolt from axle-flange to trans. 30 ft-lbs on all hex-bolts from axle to axle-flange. Torked my wheel nuts all the way (200ft-lbs). And like I said, I had no issues on the install. R32 carriers and calipers also went on with ease as well. Also, I wouldn't think the issue would come from the spindles- I pressed in my new bearings solid, and clipped the new circlips in place- everything went as usual in a bearing/wheel hub replacement.
So, I'm not really sure where the extra distance is coming from. The issue seems to be likely occurring because of the distance between my wheel hub and and brake caliper, which is resting on my carrier, which is bolted directly to my spindle, which is was installed exactly the same on both sides, so what could be the issue?
I'm sure others have probably run across this issue at some point. Any input on trouble-shooting would be appreciated.
Thanks...
 

Dieselducky

Veteran Member
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Oct 13, 2011
Location
Dunnville
TDI
88 Jetta Diesel - 2000 Jetta TDI - 04 BMW M3 - 06 Kia Rio - F350 Superduty - 87 Buick GNX - Mobile Cranes
Wheel spacers....or better yet get the proper offset wheels 200lbs is WAAAAYYYY to tight for the wheels studs...90-100lbs max 1-2 MM gap is not enough ...it will rub under hard cornering
 
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HUVW

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 12, 2008
Location
Hungary
TDI
05 Passat Highline 4Motion
If you have been torquing your wheels to 200 ft lbs, my first question concerning wheel clearance would be: Are your wheels straight, not warped from over torquing?

Like dieselducky said, wheel spacers after you determine your wheels are in good working condition.

Good luck.
 

FlyTDI Guy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Location
PNW
TDI
'01 Jetta GLS
I used to know a member who went out to xxx tire shop and bought some new wheels. Apparently the offset was incorrect and they had ground down his calipers to clear. I cringed and kept my mouth shut. Wheel spacers... and yes, where the heck did you come up w/200 ft/lbs? I'm surprised you haven't snapped any bolts or peeled any threads.
 

parkair

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2005
Location
Satellite Beach
TDI
Jetta 2001 silver
Re-check all work and bolts etc. And then just get some spacers. That should fix the issue. I planned on using spacers with mine so never had an issue with rubbing. The wheel stance fills the fenders better with spacers. Good luck.
 

Addamsonflint

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Location
Columbus OH
TDI
1999.5 Jetta
Wow, my bad on the typo/mis-wording! I was way tired after wrenching from dawn to dusk yesterday. By wheel nuts I meant my axle bolt nuts. Yes, 200ft-lbs on my lug nuts would be very very insane! lol

I fully agree, spacers are the best fix, and an easy one. I'm just really confused as to why there would be a difference in distance from wheel to wheel between brake and wheel. There are few components.

Also, what if I ran a thick washer between the carrier, and spindle? Or will that off-set my caliper over my rotor too much?
 
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parkair

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2005
Location
Satellite Beach
TDI
Jetta 2001 silver
The R32 brake calipers are larger than the TDI calipers. I think you are fine, just get some spacers. Enjoy the wider stance.
 

Addamsonflint

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Location
Columbus OH
TDI
1999.5 Jetta
How bad is it hitting? You could shave a wee bit off the caliper...

It is BARELY touching, and spacers should easily do the trick. As I mentioned in my other post, I'm still curious what the culprit is of the issue. There are very few parts that make up that distance. My carriers are bolted tightly to my spindles, and my wheel bearings and hubs pressed all the way into my spindles.


I was also looking at putting a moderately-thick washer in between my carrier and the spindle, which would pull the whole caliper assembly back towards the inside a bit, but I don't know if that would create an issue of the caliper being off-center over the rotor. Again, it would only be a slight change with the washer, nothing huge. But, with such small variances, anything can make a noticeable difference.
 

Nash_TDI

Veteran Member -TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 3, 2002
Location
Louisville, ky
TDI
2000 Silver Jetta TDI
I was also looking at putting a moderately-thick washer in between my carrier and the spindle, which would pull the whole caliper assembly back towards the inside a bit, but I don't know if that would create an issue of the caliper being off-center over the rotor. Again, it would only be a slight change with the washer, nothing huge. But, with such small variances, anything can make a noticeable difference.

I had to do that on my rears. I have no issues. I use camber shims in the rear to adjust the alignment and have to in turn adjust the brakes some too.
 

Addamsonflint

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Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Location
Columbus OH
TDI
1999.5 Jetta
That is good to hear. My concern was, because the outer brake pad is fixed, instead of variable like the inside one pressed against the dual pistons, by moving the caliper in a bit, it might make my outer pad press against my rotor more than it should. I guess worst case would be that it would be a bit thinner than my inner pad, but since the outer one just sits there as a base for the other pad to press the rotor against, it wouldn't do too much.
 

Nash_TDI

Veteran Member -TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 3, 2002
Location
Louisville, ky
TDI
2000 Silver Jetta TDI
If its down to mms then it MAY be ok. Something with the wheel bearing/hub assembly might not be fully seated. I just did mine Sunday.
 

Addamsonflint

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Location
Columbus OH
TDI
1999.5 Jetta
Something is definitely a miss if one side lines up and the other doesn't....
Yes, there is definitely something. I mean...we're talking about a very slight variance, but very odd, and very few items to cause the issue.

Any thoughts?
 

Doc_Oc

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Location
Orangeville, Ontario
TDI
03 Golf TDI
What rims are you using? Replicas? Cheppos? There might be a difference from rim to rim. Try one of the rear wheels instead and see what the clearance is like.
If the bore size is off a little on one of them it could sit in or out by as much as 5 mm.
I would blame it on the wheels before anything else.
Also, if the spindles, carriers, are off a wrecked car, who knows how they got hit: curb impact, side impact with another car...
I would say 1-2 mm is to little clearance, especially in 18" wheels. They do flex ever so slightly.
 

millerlite

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2011
Location
New Brunswick
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
Are your pads used? the difference could be because of the fact that the pads on one side are worn more than the other causing the calliper to stick out more (they are on sliders after all)
 

LNXGUY

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Barrie, Ont, Canada
TDI
'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
Are your pads used? the difference could be because of the fact that the pads on one side are worn more than the other causing the calliper to stick out more (they are on sliders after all)
Calipers are bolted to carriers which are bolted to the spindles.. That's static and never changes. Pad thickness won't have anything to do with it.
 
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millerlite

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Joined
May 7, 2011
Location
New Brunswick
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
I need to draw a pic. It depends on what part of the wheel its rubbing, but the calliper moves in towards the car as the pads wear. Think about it for a second. Your disc is static, the callipers are not. As the outside pad wears, the piston pushing the inside pad against the rotor which pulls the entire calliper inward, providing more clearance between the wheel and calliper. I have seen this first hand, my wheels needed spacers after I replaced my pads.
 

LNXGUY

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Barrie, Ont, Canada
TDI
'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
(Closing eyes and picturing caliper in my head, lol)

I think you might be onto something here. Makes perfect sense seeing that one side fits, and the other doesn't.
 

1854sailor

Resident Curmudgeon
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Aug 10, 2004
Location
Westerly, RI
TDI
2015 Golf SE SportWagen, 2015 Golf SE Hatch Back.
Easy way to find out if it is simply a tolerance issue would be to switch the wheels side to side.
 

Addamsonflint

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Location
Columbus OH
TDI
1999.5 Jetta
Yeah, that is definitely the case. Basically, I can put a washer in between the carrier and the spindle, and without using too thick of one, it shouldn't make too much of an issue, but we will see. If you used a really thick washer, or several washers, the problem you would run into would be, when you go back to put the caliper on top of the rotor, and slide it down, you would run into the carrier, rather than fit past it, at the point where you screw in your slide pins.

However, if your outside pad were thinner, it would allow for more room for the caliper to move inward and clear the carrier. Again, this is all taking into account modifying spacing at least 3-4+ mm. At 3mm or less, I don't think it will be a problem, but we will see. My spacers arrive tomorrow and then I'll take my carriers off too, and see what the washer spacing does. I may not even need it, but I want to at least try it for future reference.
 

FlyTDI Guy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Location
PNW
TDI
'01 Jetta GLS
Just a side note (not to add to your grief) but... how thick did you order and are your current lug bolts long enough to accommodate? You don't want to short yourself too many threads or bad things could happen.

The primary question of WHY the sides are not the same remains. Like yourself, despite having a 'band-aid' available, I'd sure want to get to the bottom of it. Pad thickness may vary between mfg's but with piston completely retracted, a new pad should fit with some tolerance for clearance on the rotor. Using used pads, it's possible to put the inboard pad on the outboard side of the rotor and then, visa-versa on the other side creating an uneven clearance to the wheel. Inboard pads (piston side) always wear faster due to the physics of a sliding caliper design. Forgive my ignorance but, are the R32's a nice 2 or 4 pot design?
 

HUVW

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 12, 2008
Location
Hungary
TDI
05 Passat Highline 4Motion
Are your wheels straight?

Good luck.
Like many have mentioned, switch wheels to address the problem most easily identifiable.

Then you can start taking the brake system apart to insert washers and install the spacers if the wheels aren't the issue.

Again, good luck.
 

JettaGetUpandGo

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Joined
Nov 30, 2009
Location
Brookfield, WI
TDI
No TDI. 2005 Jetta GLI
I had the same issue trying to fit wheels over R32 brakes last summer. One side had 2-3mm less clearance than the other side. I caved and ground a little bit off the calipers to create more clearance in addition to using a small spacer.
 

Addamsonflint

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Location
Columbus OH
TDI
1999.5 Jetta
I had the same issue trying to fit wheels over R32 brakes last summer. One side had 2-3mm less clearance than the other side. I caved and ground a little bit off the calipers to create more clearance in addition to using a small spacer.
I get why some would cringe at shaving a caliper- but if done carefully and in very small proportion, it doesn't hurt much. My wheel spacers were supposed to be here tomorrow, which would be an easy and solid fix, but they won't get here until Monday- but I will have plenty of garage time this weekend, that I can look at several different things, that others have mentioned. I am going to see what some moderate washers between the carrier and spindle do. I am also going to swap wheels to look at that as a possible culprit.

I'm also going to take some solid measurements, especially because of the curiosity- because at that point in the drivetrain, there are very few components that could contribute to the issue. I fully seated my bearings and circlips. I pressed my wheel hubs in all the way, and while it would be pretty hard to miss 3+mm, torking my axle nuts past spec 200 ft-lbs, would have seated my hubs the rest of the way, had I missed it to such a big distance.

After that, the only parts that will affect spacing are my carriers and wheels. I mean....calipers, spindles, these are hugely solid cast metal parts, and OEM factory parts forged in the same iron molds they cast thousands of other parts- the issue simply isn't there. But the wheels are aftermarket, not cheap, but there is at least the possibility of imperfection, and maybe a carrier is slightly bent or something.

I will measure this weekend, and post the results...
 
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