Asphaltene Issues related to ULSD

Jetta_Pilot

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West Hill, Ont.
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2015 Passat Highline TDI Candy White (SEL Premium) long gone 2002 Jetta TDI

ZippyNH

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Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
TDI
2015 JETTA TDI SE
On Heavy duty trucks where the fuel gets hot...it builds up...forms little black balls, reside..but FUEL doesn't seem to get as hot...not as much getting sent back to the tank in a TDI.
I use PS for other reasons.
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
On Heavy duty trucks where the fuel gets hot...it builds up...forms little black balls, reside..but FUEL doesn't seem to get as hot...not as much getting sent back to the tank in a TDI.
I use PS for other reasons.
For every unit of fuel burned 200 parts are circulated back to the tank...

The TDI circulates at idle approx 2 liters per minute of fuel, at 5100 rpm, return rates to the tank are approx 8 liters per minute.

Fuel in at the ALH TDI, has very little return rate from the injectors, these are effectively a total loss system in the sense that once the fuel is pushed to the injector nearly all that fuel is delivered to the cylinder. The problem with this is that the fuel is heated and after the 6-8 injection events required to push the fuel from the plunger to the nozzle, it has increased in temperature significantly and is easily exceeding 300-400F. This causes varnishes to form if fuel additives are not being utilized.
 

Rembrant

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Oct 31, 2014
Location
Canada's Ocean Playground
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2013 Golf TDI DSG
I run it in every single tank of fuel. Silver bottle in the summer, white bottle in the winter.

I always figured, even if it was only for placebo effect, I was OK with it.
 

Blue_Hen_TDI

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owned: 96 B4V, 06 Golf, 12 NMS, 15 GSW
I just got back in a TDI, my fourth, in May when the opportunity to purchase a new old stock EPA re-release GSW for $8K off at 0% for 72 months (a veritable no-brainer) presented itself.

I decided to experiment on the first several tanks, rotating through Stanadyne Lubricity, Stanadyne Performance, OptiLube XPD, and Power Service summer (silver bottle). The first three are all demulsifiers while PS is more preferable as the only emulsifier and will pass any water safely through the system without collecting. I'm also finding that PS is returning significantly better mpg for me, so the experimenting phase is over and it'll be PS silver until late fall, and then PS white until spring.
 

lovemybug

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Location
SE Wisconsin
TDI
2002 Red Beetle
Been using both white and grey bottle PS for many years. Started using Howe's recently, and it seems my performance has gotten better. No concrete evidence, just seat of the pants feel.

Just out of curiosity, DBW, what's your opinion of Howe's vs. Power Service?
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
I prefer the Power Service mostly for water control, but also for detergency and cetane increase.
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
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2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
I prefer the Power Service mostly for water control, but also for detergency and cetane increase.
THIS. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :cool:

I decided to experiment on the first several tanks, rotating through Stanadyne Lubricity, Stanadyne Performance, OptiLube XPD, and Power Service summer (silver bottle). The first three are all demulsifiers while PS is more preferable as the only emulsifier and will pass any water safely through the system without collecting. I'm also finding that PS is returning significantly better mpg for me, so the experimenting phase is over and it'll be PS silver until late fall, and then PS white until spring.
PowerService is not an emulsifier, IIRC. It is a solubilizer according to PS.

I've been using Howes Lubricator Diesel Treat for many years with good results. Howes is a demulsifier like Stanadyne. I have transitioned to PS Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle) for water control and lubricity. My BMWs don't have a water separator that I can drain and have to rely on the few PPMs of dissolved water staying dissolved to pass through the system harmlessly. I'm also very careful to fuel up ONLY at busy high turnover stations along major routes to avoid getting watery fuel. I go where the big rigs go to fuel up in my area.

Note that PS Diesel Kleen (silver bottle) doesn't do anything for water and has no anti-gel for winter use in case the fuel isn't winterized. While anti-gel is not needed during summer months, I use PS Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle) year round to control water by keeping it dissolved and to increase lubricity. Providing some Cetane boost is another benefit. I recommend using PS Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle) year round. PS DK (silver bottle) is a summer only formula.

My priorities for fuel additives are to control water and increase lubricity. Providing anti-gel for winter use and increasing Cetane levels are of secondary importance.

Diesel ON! :)
 
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n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
Been using both white and grey bottle PS for many years. Started using Howe's recently, and it seems my performance has gotten better. No concrete evidence, just seat of the pants feel.
Just out of curiosity, DBW, what's your opinion of Howe's vs. Power Service?
I noticed that too with my TDIs years ago. An overdose of Howes simply shows no further improvement, if any. From my experience, an overdose of PS can result in a slight drop in MPGs. I can't tell any difference in my BMWs with Howes vs. PS in terms of MPGs and performance.

I've transitioned to PS Diesel Fuel Supplement (white bottle) for water control and lubricity. I like both Howes and PS but how PS controls water was what tipped me toward PS and away from Howes.
 

The Tortoise

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Location
Ottawa
TDI
2015 GSW Trendline - White
Dumb questions. I read the owners manual and there was no mention of additives.

1) What's VW's take on additives? If something goes wrong with the DPF and they determine additives were to blame, where does that leave the owner.

2) How much benefit do they really provide? Am I naive in thinking the cars have been designed to safely burn ULSD?

Thanks.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
VW does not recommend any particular additive. They do sell Stanadyne though. Any name brand additive will work fine if the instructions for dosing are followed.

There are those who use them regularly and those who never use them and a few in between.

First you need to determine what you are trying to fix/modify for. Those in cold climates are the usual ones to use them the most to stop/deter freezing of the fuel. Others want them for lubricity purposes and some who want the cetane boost or anti water properties.

There are many threads here on additives. I would suggest reading some and in the end you will have to make up your own mind. They stink real bad so don't spill any or get any on yourself/clothing/car/equipment. Best not to store them in the car either if you can help it as most will leak and get all over everything around. A little goes a long way in the smell department and it doesn't wash out easy either. Good luck with your decision!
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
For every unit of fuel burned 200 parts are circulated back to the tank...
The TDI circulates at idle approx 2 liters per minute of fuel, at 5100 rpm, return rates to the tank are approx 8 liters per minute.
Fuel in at the ALH TDI, has very little return rate from the injectors, these are effectively a total loss system in the sense that once the fuel is pushed to the injector nearly all that fuel is delivered to the cylinder. The problem with this is that the fuel is heated and after the 6-8 injection events required to push the fuel from the plunger to the nozzle, it has increased in temperature significantly and is easily exceeding 300-400F. This causes varnishes to form if fuel additives are not being utilized.
thanks for the heads up been using power service for years in my tacoma but may start using it in my 05 golf... can you provide test data that shows VE intra fuel temps reaching 400 degrees ? seems awful high
 
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dubStrom

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thanks for the heads up been using power service for years in my tacoma but may start using it in my 05 golf... can you provide test data that shows VE intra fuel temps reaching 400 degrees ? seems awful high
I interpreted the high temp of fuel in ALH to mean that the fuel approaching the nozzle (inside the hot injector body) heats up, not in the fuel pump. The evidence would only be how much volume per minute versus the dead volume in the hot parts of the injector, buried in the head. That is, holding the diesel inside the heated injector heats it to temp. It is a reasonable theory since none is recirculated. But the diesel won't heat to a higher temperature than the head/injectors.

Isn't that more like 250 F (about 120C)? Thermostat keeps the block close to 180F, but the head is undoubted hotter, hotter than the lower block by some, but 400(F) ?? Some EGR might heat it up more, but the intercooler is supposed to control that intake gases temp, isn't it? I'll bet someone here knows how hot the injectors actually run. Probably hotter than the intake gases since they are in intimate contact with the head, only cooled by (hopefully) meager amounts of incoming fuel.
 
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jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
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Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
I interpreted the high temp of fuel in ALH to mean that the fuel approaching the nozzle (inside the hot injector body) heats up, not in the fuel pump. The evidence would only be how much volume per minute versus the dead volume in the hot parts of the injector, buried in the head. That is, holding the diesel inside the heated injector heats it to temp. It is a reasonable theory since none is recirculated. But the diesel won't heat to a higher temperature than the head/injectors.

Isn't that more like 250 F (about 120C)? Thermostat keeps the block close to 180F, but the head is undoubted hotter, hotter than the lower block by some, but 400(F) ?? Some EGR might heat it up more, but the intercooler is supposed to control that intake gases temp, isn't it? I'll bet someone here knows how hot the injectors actually run. Probably hotter than the intake gases since they are in intimate contact with the head, only cooled by (hopefully) meager amounts of incoming fuel.
that's what i was referring to, i know the IP does not reach those temps as it can be monitored using vcds ... i'm questioning the validity of claimed 400 degree fuel temps in the injector, of course i could be wrong, and i welcome data that shows such ;)
 

turbovan+tdi

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Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
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2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Get ready for all the NAY Sayers coming out of the woodwork now !!!

I've been using PowerService "Silver" only since 2005. But I do not spend winters in the cold !
Love PS silver, I notice a jump in power, engine pulls better, runs smoother. I also dump in a bit of Lucas Oil upper engine stabilizer as I run Jet A.
 

ZippyNH

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
TDI
2015 JETTA TDI SE
The temperature of fuel has next to nothing to do with the motor temp...
It heats up from the HP fuel pump....basic science... compression causes an item to get hot.
The higher the psi, the hotter the temp.

I kinda question some of the info provided, but I deal with both HD truck motors where the op's info IS CORRECT....but have never seen anything about it being an issue on TDI cars.
 
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MichaelB

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Location
SE Wisconsin
TDI
2014 Passat SE DSG
Love PS silver, I notice a jump in power, engine pulls better, runs smoother. I also dump in a bit of Lucas Oil upper engine stabilizer as I run Jet A.
I never noticed an increase in power using any addatives including PS silver. If my seat of the pants dyno can't feel it and it takes a real dyno to show a minor increase to me no big deal. I believe DBW when he recommends PS White to contol water (year round) Lucas products well...... I don't and most others here don't run Jet A as we buy diesel fuel.
 
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turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Asphaltene- sounds like the world's worst beverage. And I grew up with Moxie! :D
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
The temperature of fuel has next to nothing to do with the motor temp...
It heats up from the HP fuel pump....basic science... compression causes an item to get hot.
The higher the psi, the hotter the temp.

I kinda question some of the info provided, but I deal with both HD truck motors where the op's info IS CORRECT....but have never seen anything about it being an issue on TDI cars.
i understand that temp rises with pressure, what i'm questioning is the OP's statement of how high it gets ... creating "facts" to fit theories, common theme
 

dubStrom

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2003 A4 Jetta (sold), 2010 JSW (sold), 2013 Passat 6MT traded for 2014 JSW with 6MT-TOTALED in November 2016, 2003 ALH 5MT conversion (sold), wheezing 2015 GSW/DSG and a new 2021 Tacoma Access Cab 4x4 p'up
Gases change in temperature way more than liquids when pressurized. Diesel oil apparently has about a 50 degree F change for 5000 psi increase. Here is something I found that explains the math. I am no physicist, but liquids can't be compressed much compared to gases (that's change in volume). The intermoleular collisions don't change much for liquid. For gases, which are easily compressible, the intermolecular collisions (and collisions with the container) increase dramatically.

This suggests that an increase from ambient temp of the fuel (say, 80degrees F or less) could increase by 100 degrees is compressed to 10,000 psi.

The head is hotter than that, so the heating caused by time spent in the hot injector body is much more significant than the compression back at the pump.

http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=224

But either way, if the compression heated it to a temperature HIGHER than the injector pump temperature at the fuel pump, then it would COOL as it entered the injector body. So the question really still is just how hot is the inector body? The injector body is the last thing the fuel is in contact with before it goes into the cylinder. I would guess it is about as hot as the head it is in contact with.

Coolant is continuously flowing through it. I don't think it is hotter than 250, or maybe 280 degrees F. No way is it 400 degrees F.
 
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Drivbiwire

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Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
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2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
that's what i was referring to, i know the IP does not reach those temps as it can be monitored using vcds ... i'm questioning the validity of claimed 400 degree fuel temps in the injector, of course i could be wrong, and i welcome data that shows such ;)
This is the nozzle tip temperature:


The fuel on a VE has very little return, all fuel injected effectively goes to the cylinder.

Each injection even pushes about about a 1/3 of the injectors total volume at high loads.

As the fuel passed thru the feed channel, the fuel enters an annular chamber.

This chamber during normal operation is in the range of 600-800F due to heat transfer from the combustion chamber.

The fuel entering the injector is pre-heated in the pump to around 120-150F depending on the thermostatic valve on the fuel filter.

During injection pressures can rise to around 16,500 psi, increasing the fuel temp to around 250-300F.

As the fuel passes thru the injector and into the nozzle, it slows and absorbs heat inside the nozzle. This acts as a cooling medium, to cool the nozzle internally, before the fuel is pushed to the cylinder.

Its not uncommon in a VE TDI to exceed 400F+

The PD is even higher as is the CR TDI operating at 30,000 PSI.
 

New Mickey

The user formerly known as mickey
Joined
Jun 6, 2017
Location
Utah
TDI
2015 Passat
VW doesn't recommend any additives because they recommend top quality, clean, water-free fuel. If that's all you use then you don't need additives.

Additives are intended to deal with the real world, not lab conditions.

I don't generally use any. All stations that sell diesel go through a lot of it around here. Lots of diesel pickups. 3 or 4 times a year I buy a big bottle of PS "white". Usually in the winter.

-mickey
 

dubStrom

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2003 A4 Jetta (sold), 2010 JSW (sold), 2013 Passat 6MT traded for 2014 JSW with 6MT-TOTALED in November 2016, 2003 ALH 5MT conversion (sold), wheezing 2015 GSW/DSG and a new 2021 Tacoma Access Cab 4x4 p'up
It makes sense that the nozzle TIP gets much hotter than the nozzle body.
 
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