USA vs. European Emissions Standards?

efb91

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I'm just curious. You would think that since Europeans have a higher standard of emissions on their vehicles, but a few people have told me that we actually have higher standards than Europe in terms of diesel emissions. The reason I ask is that although I love my TDI, when I get married, we're going to need a second car, and she was thinking Ford Fiesta. I was wondering if I grey-imported a Ford Fiesta Diesel from the UK, if it would even pass emissions standards here, before I even look further into it.
 

dieseldorf

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I was wondering if I grey-imported a Ford Fiesta Diesel from the UK, if it would even pass emissions standards here, before I even look further into it.
Not only will it not meet emissions, there's an arm's length list of other reasons you won't be able to import it ;)
 

thebigarniedog

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I'm just curious. You would think that since Europeans have a higher standard of emissions on their vehicles, but a few people have told me that we actually have higher standards than Europe in terms of diesel emissions. The reason I ask is that although I love my TDI, when I get married, we're going to need a second car, and she was thinking Ford Fiesta. I was wondering if I grey-imported a Ford Fiesta Diesel from the UK, if it would even pass emissions standards here, before I even look further into it.

Europe actually has effectively tougher emissions standards then the US. That said, there is an arms length of reasons why you cannot import that vehicle into the US.
 

bluesmoker

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Europe actually has effectively tougher emissions standards then the US. That said, there is an arms length of reasons why you cannot import that vehicle into the US.
yes , but they (as a general rule) are not enforced

just take a look at our UK members, they delete everything (cat, dpf, egr, vent the ccv to the surface) and EASILY PASS the MOT smog test

the UK MOT smog test effectively measures diesel emissions at a 1970 pollution standard, pathetic!!

http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_730.htm

the euro V standards are very close to tier 2 bin5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards
 
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rme

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I'm confused....a simple yes or no would help...do the european spec cars/trucks have emissions standards that are stronger/higher than U.S. emissions standards?
 

ruking

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You might think that it might be a simple yes or no answer. The over all issue is SO opaque, that the real truth is not surprisingly... opaque.

Here is a non sound bite able example. The majority of folks KNOW RUG to PUG is CLEANER than ULSD !!!!!! PERIOD ! EOS (end of story)

Even some RUG to PUG users know that the current ULSD standard is @15 ppm sulfur. Nominally it is delivered @ 5-7 ppm sulfur.There are HUGE HUGE fines if fuel is delivered higher than 15 ppm, ergo they have refined the ULSD product to come 53% to 67% below (even CLEANER) to avoid any issues. As a comparo "bio diesel" is normally under 1 ppm sulfur.

On the other hand, most RUG TO PUG users don't even know what the RUG to PUG standards ARE??? (Truthfully, I counted my self in that population, untill a few years ago. Not that any one cares nor does it continue to really make a difference)

RUG to PUG standards are @ 30 ppm sulfur. With off line fee mitigation, RUG to PUG can be delivered @ the pump as high as 90 ppm sulfur or by LAW RUG to PUG can be delivered MUCH DIRTIER !!!! 2 x to 18 times dirtier !!?? Keep in mind, this does not take into account that RUG to PUG users (like models) use anywhere from 20-40% more of the ...dirtier fuel!!???

Yet RUG to PUG users truly believe RUG to PUG is CLEANER !!! While the facts can be considered pretty obvious, I will let folks draw their own conclusions. As a result the cleaner fuel is "restricted" while the dirtier fuel is allowed to be used. The percentage of passenger vehicles is overwhelmingly HUGE (50 times greater ) . 98% of US passenger vehicles are RUG to PUG. Estimates are 9% require PUG. 2% are "diesels" and one half of one percent are diesel ... passenger cars. So on an operative level, we follow a burning more; yields less pollution paradigm. The corollary is we burn more to save the planet.
 
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Ski in NC

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No expert here, but as I understand it EURO vs US emissions standards cannot be viewed as one being more strict than the other. They are different. Emissions regs cover several pollutants.. HC, CO, CO2, NOx, Particulate, etc. And different places have different limits and different timetables for enforcement of limits. And the limits change over time. And different limits apply to different classes of vehicles.
 

dieseldorf

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do the european spec cars/trucks have emissions standards that are stronger/higher than U.S. emissions standards?

At this moment, the USA diesel regs are the strictest in the world and that's the reason the exhaust aftertreatment on cars sold here is unique to the USA/Can;)
I don't know about the gassers, Euro vs. NAmerica.
 

Scott_DeWitt

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I'm just curious. You would think that since Europeans have a higher standard of emissions on their vehicles, but a few people have told me that we actually have higher standards than Europe in terms of diesel emissions. The reason I ask is that although I love my TDI, when I get married, we're going to need a second car, and she was thinking Ford Fiesta. I was wondering if I grey-imported a Ford Fiesta Diesel from the UK, if it would even pass emissions standards here, before I even look further into it.
It might be possible to bring over the Fiesta, but plan on spending tens of thousands of dollars have it modified for emissions and saftey, and there's the risk it might not be possible no matter how much money you throw at it.

If it's a RHD model it's almost guaranteed that it will not be importable unless crash testing is performed.

You can go to the NHSTA, US customs, and EPA websites and research what has to be done.

The USA emission standards are a bit different than European standards and don't directly correlate to each other, the big difficulty for diesel engines are the nitrous oxide emissions hence all the exhaust treatment technologies.
 

eddie_1

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I'm just curious. You would think that since Europeans have a higher standard of emissions on their vehicles, but a few people have told me that we actually have higher standards than Europe in terms of diesel emissions. The reason I ask is that although I love my TDI, when I get married, we're going to need a second car, and she was thinking Ford Fiesta. I was wondering if I grey-imported a Ford Fiesta Diesel from the UK, if it would even pass emissions standards here, before I even look further into it.
Definitely not from UK, they drive on the wrong side of the road! Unless you want to use it as US mail vehicle or do the steering swap. :D

We have the tightest emissions stds but create the highest pollution per person. 4% of world population vs 20% of the CO2 world emissions. The US std. artificially restricts NOx emissions over CO2 to prevent diesels from coming here. Europeans restrict total C02 which reduces total green house. It appears Obama or the TDI club don't seem to be able to do anything about it. Wanna organize a March on Washington?
 

Scott_DeWitt

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The US std. artificially restricts NOx emissions over CO2 to prevent diesels from coming here. Europeans restrict total C02 which reduces total green house. It appears Obama or the TDI club don't seem to be able to do anything about it. Wanna organize a March on Washington?
Diesels get better fuel economy, which means big oil can't sell as much fuel, hence diesels are looked on with disdain.
 

thebigarniedog

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Diesels get better fuel economy, which means big oil can't sell as much fuel, hence diesels are looked on with disdain.
and a vehicle that uses less fuel emits less pollutants, requires less fuel to be processed and delivered. Thus a vehicle that gets 45 mpg using diesel is a true Green vehicle compared with a so called ULEV that gets 17mpg. You have to measure the complete equation not just parts of it like is done in the US.
 

bluesmoker

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and a vehicle that uses less fuel emits less pollutants, requires less fuel to be processed and delivered. Thus a vehicle that gets 45 mpg using diesel is a true Green vehicle compared with a so called ULEV that gets 17mpg. You have to measure the complete equation not just parts of it like is done in the US.
agreed, this is why UK cars have a C02 rating
 

wxman

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EU is actually more restrictive with respect to CO and PM emissions, less restrictive with respect to NOx. The test cycles are not identical (FTP75 for the U.S., NEDC for Europe), although based on a study by CARB, there do not appear to be any significant differences resulting from the two test cycles.

Based on the EU certified emissions for the 2010 Euro 5 Fiesta 1.6 liter Duratorq, the NOx emissions would be about 0.25 g/mi (155 mg/km - http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=25511 ) which would exceed Bin 8 requirements for NOx (0.20 g/mi). All other emissions would be well below Bin 8, and even below Bin 5.
 

KILL CARB and the US EPA

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IMO there is a clear reason the US EPA has refuted the expansion of the diesel fleet in the US. It would simply reduce the amount od oil we consume 10 fold. Prior to the draconian after treatment protocols diesel engine manufacturers had made tremendous achievments in performance and efficiency. The simple fact alone the Caterpillar was forced from the OH truck engine market due to an enormous investment made for R+D which never sold a whole lot, proves the assinine methodology of the US EPA who rubber stamps whatever CARB dreams up, no we all know illicit drug use is rampant in CA right? For the last few years I have tried to compare USEPA/CARB with CAFE and its hard to figure. One thing I know is the EPA has ruined the OH diesel market in America period!
 

john.jackson9213

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Bottom line is that you will never save any money by importing a car from europe. Infact you will spend bucket loads of money if you try to keep it here.

Drop the idea!

Or you can import the car, pay what ever it takes to get a one year waver and then destroy the car at the end of 1 year.

Only other thing I can think of is import the car to Canada (no Idea what their rules are). Register it in Canada and drive it here. Take your chance.

JJ
 

bluesmoker

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IMO there is a clear reason the US EPA has refuted the expansion of the diesel fleet in the US. It would simply reduce the amount od oil we consume 10 fold. Prior to the draconian after treatment protocols diesel engine manufacturers had made tremendous achievments in performance and efficiency. The simple fact alone the Caterpillar was forced from the OH truck engine market due to an enormous investment made for R+D which never sold a whole lot, proves the assinine methodology of the US EPA who rubber stamps whatever CARB dreams up, no we all know illicit drug use is rampant in CA right? For the last few years I have tried to compare USEPA/CARB with CAFE and its hard to figure. One thing I know is the EPA has ruined the OH diesel market in America period!

the highligted statement is simply not true, try using google once in a while:rolleyes::rolleyes:

http://www.cat.com/on-highway-transportation
http://www.allbusiness.com/environment-natural-resources/pollution/7368104-1.html
 
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FowVay

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Buy a U.S. legal fiesta, take a trip to the European country of choice and visit the junks yards, pick out a nice diesel engine from a crash victim and ship it home. Declare it for 'off highway use' or simply ship it in pieces, and then plan on spending your summer doing a heart transplant.

This won't work if you live in a county/state that does emissions tests though. And it will take a nice chunk of electronics replacement to make it all work.

But, where there's a will there's a way. I'd personally just buy what's here and enjoy it for what it is. The older I get, the more this simple phrase makes sense: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do"!
 

bluesmoker

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I'm just curious. You would think that since Europeans have a higher standard of emissions on their vehicles, but a few people have told me that we actually have higher standards than Europe in terms of diesel emissions. The reason I ask is that although I love my TDI, when I get married, we're going to need a second car, and she was thinking Ford Fiesta. I was wondering if I grey-imported a Ford Fiesta Diesel from the UK, if it would even pass emissions standards here, before I even look further into it.

the emission question is the least of your problems, unless the car is at least 25 years old and left hand drive, forget it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_import_vehicle#United_States
 

FowVay

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Regarding the Caterpillar information - it is true that CAT is leaving the OTR market. However, according to their financial statements, the OTR business accounted for only 6% of their total engine sales. I think it's merely a case of them concentrating their resources where they can be the most productive.

They have decided to partner with Navistar for help in covering this market segment. See below quote from their press release:

"NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- Caterpillar Inc. said Thursday it will exit the on-highway truck engine market by 2010, opting instead to work with Navistar International Corp. to develop commercial trucks for distribution in global markets."
 

bluesmoker

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Regarding the Caterpillar information - it is true that CAT is leaving the OTR market. However, according to their financial statements, the OTR business accounted for only 6% of their total engine sales. I think it's merely a case of them concentrating their resources where they can be the most productive.

They have decided to partner with Navistar for help in covering this market segment. See below quote from their press release:

"NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- Caterpillar Inc. said Thursday it will exit the on-highway truck engine market by 2010, opting instead to work with Navistar International Corp. to develop commercial trucks for distribution in global markets."

strange:confused:, i was proven wrong, my bad, cat's website is deceptive

thanks for straightening me out:eek:
 

Intech

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'Non legal' Diesels

I have a question, and perhaps someone on the list can answer it for me. Since I came from Europe, and my whole family is still there, getting a European diesel is the easy part, getting it over here is like trying to shoot pool with a rope. Having said that, I'd like to know how there are diesel Toyotas available here in the states, brought in from the UK and Australia, including with RH drive? I personally looked at several when I was looking for a diesel pick up, to augment my Golf TDI. These vehicles, Land Cruisers and Pick ups were definitly imported, and I was told "Are 100% legal". They had titles and tags, Washington and New York. can anyone explain it to me?
Thanks
 

eddie_1

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I have a question, and perhaps someone on the list can answer it for me. Since I came from Europe, and my whole family is still there, getting a European diesel is the easy part, getting it over here is like trying to shoot pool with a rope. Having said that, I'd like to know how there are diesel Toyotas available here in the states, brought in from the UK and Australia, including with RH drive? I personally looked at several when I was looking for a diesel pick up, to augment my Golf TDI. These vehicles, Land Cruisers and Pick ups were definitly imported, and I was told "Are 100% legal". They had titles and tags, Washington and New York. can anyone explain it to me?
Thanks
Regulations are different for trucks. As long as they burn alot of fuel they'd be fine with the authorities. They just dont like high mpg vehicles.
 

Intech

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Regulations are different for trucks. As long as they burn alot of fuel they'd be fine with the authorities. They just dont like high mpg vehicles.
Thank you. I won't print my feelings on that :rolleyes:, I'd get banned frrom the list
 

TDIMeister

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EU is actually more restrictive with respect to CO and PM emissions, less restrictive with respect to NOx. The test cycles are not identical (FTP75 for the U.S., NEDC for Europe), although based on a study by CARB, there do not appear to be any significant differences resulting from the two test cycles.

Based on the EU certified emissions for the 2010 Euro 5 Fiesta 1.6 liter Duratorq, the NOx emissions would be about 0.25 g/mi (155 mg/km - http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=25511 ) which would exceed Bin 8 requirements for NOx (0.20 g/mi). All other emissions would be well below Bin 8, and even below Bin 5.
What he said. ^
 

Intech

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You can say it. I'm the mod for this forum. That quoted statement is a steaming pile of drivel.
Perhaps, but, any response that I would say, especially concerning governmental BS and over reach (especially BIG government), would quickly turn into politics, and two things that I won't talk about, unless I'm with like minded people, is politics and religion. Having once lived under total governmental control, I get easily spun up when I see it in cases like this
 

turbocharged798

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The part that kills me is the fact that somebody can buy a 10mpg HUMMER, drive it to work everyday, and that's fine with the EPA. But bring a 50mpg car in and it's no good.

I think it would only be fair to allow cars that get over say 40MPG to be emission exempt. Think about it, the cars that get such high mileage aren't polluting much due to the low fuel consumption and and manufactures would be compelled to make more fuel efficient if they don't have to go through rigorous EPA testing and compliance.

But we all know that the EPA/CARB hates diesel cars and are doing their best to keep them out.
 
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