WVO no more-My Tragic Greaser Story

AnthonyTDI said:

I don't get it...

If WVO messed up your first turbo, then what messed up your second turbo? You said that after the first turbo was replaced you stopped using WVO and went back to stock. Which means your second turbo was on diesel or B100 right? Then how did it get chewed up in 1000 miles? What damaged the blades on the new turbo so bad and so quick that needed replacing again?
It couldn't be WVO as you weren't using it on this second turbo right?

Can you explain?

Click to expand...

I don't know WVO messed up my first turbo, but judging by the pictures it is a likely suspect even though turbos have gone out at 80,000 miles.

You are correct. I used no WVO with the first VNT-17. It was destroyed by a foreign object. There was probably a shard from the stock turbo somewhere in the intercooler lines and I didn't get it out. It got sucked up on the way to Missouri and fortunately for me shaved the impeller very precisely. All the damage was on the compressor side, exhaust and shaft was fine.

Charlie (Kerma) also said that crankcase oil being blown into the intercooler by the tremendous blowby could have damaged the new turbo (lost 2 quarts going to Missouri). His analogy was rain hitting you on a motorcycle. It hurts. Make it faster and it can cut. Interesting theory but Franko6 and I think a harder object than oil got in there and bounced around especially when you look at the little pits on the turbo intake.

Chalk that up to a big $$$$ mistake for not cleaning my intercooler lines. Charlie helped as best as he could but it still hurt. We didn't make that mistake on the second VNT-17. You could eat out of that intercooler now .

I made some mistakes with my WVO system like oil change intervals. Could I correct those and go back to WVO? Sure. Maybe I will be successful, maybe not. I risked it before but dont want to again. I am willing to make biodiesel. That is also risky but not as much as WVO. It is an experimental fuel and I experimented. I saved thousands and now gave back those thousands. Hey....it was a learning experience and was kinda fun. I had a lot of interesting chats about what I was doing. Frank06 has made me whole again and time to move on.

I am going to really enjoy having compression and Charlie's Aligator tune. Compression is a good thing.

Kudos to you sir for your honest reporting. It truly takes a big man to admit (and photographically document!) his mistakes. It benefits everyone to hear all sides; so thank you sincerely: you've done a service to the diesel community. I hope at least that takes the edge off of your pain.

BTW: I had Charlie tune my car for PP764's and an Aligator-I fuel economy tune. It is fantastic. I am getting my best mileage ever.

Good luck in all your future endeavors. Please PM me if you want advice in your biodiesel reaction schemes--I'm a chemist and I will help steer you in the right direction and away from dangerous pitfalls if I can

Indeed. Compression is a good thing. I appreciate your detailed description of what happened and your lack of WVO bashing. I'm not sure I'd be able to be so even-handed if I was out the $$ that you are in this experience.

Expect lots of WVO fans questioning your approach, operating procedures, and even the doubt that WVO was the cause of your engine's problems. As a counterpoint, I'm satisfied to report that I saw PeterV today and between us we have nearly 400K on our TDIs, both with original turbos, valves, pistons, etc. Mine needed a cam at 150K, not unusual in an '02. And FWIW, consuming 1 liter of oil between changes isn't normal for a TDI, or at least it's on the high end of normal.

I'm glad your car's up and running well again, and particulary happy that you were fortunate to get a good engine. Enjoy the power.

As I age I'm (slowly) learning that trying things that don't work brings no shame. It's worse not to try. So learn from the experience and move on. Your car has a new lease on life. Long may it run.

DR,

Sorry to hear of your mechanical failure. Thanks for posting the details for the rest of use to learn from. I was curious, what was your dewatering procedure, and did you test for water such as a pan test?
Were there signs of polymerization in the crankcase?
I'd be curious about the injectors too. Iff you get the time. I know right now you're very depressed.

If it was polymerization, veggie-based crankcase oil might have prevented it.
Such as Panolin BioMot. I just did my first oil change with BioMot, which just became avialable in the US. so I have veggie oil in the crankcase now too. [Read the thread on PAnolin Chasee started for sources.]

"Andy was absolutely cognizant about his WVO temps before switching to that tank."
It's more important to know the temp. of the fuel returned to tank from the i.p.
Hot VO into a cold i.p. results in warm VO at best. Several experts at infopop recommend monitoring at the
i.p. return to tank, and only switching to VO once that is 150*F+.

Yea, the nut came off my VNT-15's wheel which ultimately did it in.

Probably the bearings were failing and there was some vibration going on
that loosened my nut.

But the problem was, just like DR's problem with his FOD (foreign object
damage) the intake pipe design sucks! Literally.

Any FOD that gets down there to the compressor inlet that can't pass
through the blades is usually ejected from the compressor inlet when it is
slapped by the blades. But because of the crappy German design, the
ejected object has nowhere to go but to tumble back down the intake
pipe to be reintroduced to wheel a second time... and so on... and so
on... until the wheel disintegrates.

My solution is to redesign the intake pipe so that there is a "well" under
the compressor inlet in the pipe. Basically the pipe will proceed past the
inlet as far as practical and the inlet will "Tee" into the side of the intake
pipe rather than be at the bottom of a 90* elbow.

If done correctly, much of the CCV oil will drip and flow down into the
"well" area rather than be forced into to the compressor inlet because it is
the lowest point of the German design.

If a hose barb is added to the low point of the well, oil that is collected
there can be allowed to drain out before it fills the well to the brim of the
compressor inlet.

Follow my logic? Any FOD that falls down the inlet pipe will either fall
safely into the well area or it will be flung into the well if it does make it to
the spinning wheel where hopefully it won't bounce out for a second trip
into the wheel.

I mailed BLUBYU, the maker of the OMI pipes to see if he is interested in
doing the assembly and sales on my much larger mandrel bent intake
pipes. So far I have not heard back from him. I don't want to get bogged
down doing all of the assembly and all of the welding and all of the sales
myself. I can middleman CNC pipe sections for probably less $$$ than most
can get them made directly.

So far I have been all talk and no pipes for sale... so add this one to the set...

IndigoBlueWagon said:

And FWIW, consuming 1 liter of oil between changes isn't normal for a TDI, or at least it's on the high end of normal.

Click to expand...

Indigo, you are dead wrong on that. In fact, the PD engine is expected to burn upwards of 2 liters between changes as per VWOA bulletin to dealers, not to mention multiple threads here.
Where do you get your information these days?

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Expect lots of WVO fans questioning your approach, operating procedures, and even the doubt that WVO was the cause of your engine's problems...

Click to expand...

But of course. Successful use of WVO in a modern TDI hinges on very strict protocol and practices. Stray from them and problems abound. Not sure if anyone will doubt that WVO played a part, but that is secondary to protocol and practices. So Indigo, what exactly is your point here?

Sorry about the oil consumption: Where I got my information was my own experience and talking to others. I only have 10K on my PD but haven't seen any oil consumption. And I talk to many PD customers about oil and no one has mentioned this kind of consumption, much less 2 liters in 10K. I have to confess I don't spend a lot of time on the PD or lubricants forums, so I was unaware of the service bulletin.

Regarding the second quote, my point is that folks who have gone to the expense and effort of installing a WVO system are going to defend it by pointing fingers at DR for not doing it properly, just as you have here. As mentioned above, DR had one of the cleanest installs I've ever seen and when talking to him at length about his "protocol and practices" he was careful bordering on obsessive. And this still happened.

I have yet to personally talk with anyone who runs WVO who has not had a major component fail in 50K or so. Yes, there are people who post here who claim 100K trouble-free miles, but I tend to be biased more towards my face-to-face experience than what someone writes on a forum. I've seen lots of injectors, valves, and pistons that look like DRs, many that look worse.

My point? (flame suit on here). Running WVO in a TDI is a time bomb. Sooner or later something will blow up.

BioDiesel said:

DR,


If it was polymerization, veggie-based crankcase oil might have prevented it.

Click to expand...

Can you explain the chemistry of how veggie-based crankcase oil would have made a difference?

OkiTDI

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Regarding the second quote, my point is that folks who have gone to the expense and effort of installing a WVO system are going to defend it by pointing fingers at DR for not doing it properly, just as you have here. As mentioned above, DR had one of the cleanest installs I've ever seen and when talking to him at length about his "protocol and practices" he was careful bordering on obsessive. And this still happened.

I have yet to personally talk with anyone who runs WVO who has not had a major component fail in 50K or so. Yes, there are people who post here who claim 100K trouble-free miles, but I tend to be biased more towards my face-to-face experience than what someone writes on a forum. I've seen lots of injectors, valves, and pistons that look like DRs, many that look worse.

My point? (flame suit on here). Running WVO in a TDI is a time bomb. Sooner or later something will blow up.

Click to expand...

Well, you have been talking to me. 70K+ without a major or even minor component failure. I believe you're in MA, right? I'm happy to let you check out my car and filtering setup if you want. Seriously.

Not so obsessive that he did any oil analysis in 50K miles, or even changed the oil a bit more frequently than 10K. Sorry, but that's not even close to obsessive in my book. I don't mean to insult him, but that alone is tantamount to negligence.

You do know that the statement about a timebomb applies to stock vehicles running on D2 as well, right? The old "it'll happen someday!" may sound ominous to some, but most of us realize it is actualy a non sequitur, just as much as if I said "it'll last forever!".

I've been trading emails with him. I am worried that his system did not truly purge, resulting in contamination of the small diesel tank. I have yet to confirm this. We all know that starting a cold modern TDI on even small percentages of WVO can be very bad.

I'm also very worried about how he processed his WVO. So far, it seems he only filtered to 10 microns (not even absolute), and never did any heating/settling of the WVO at all. He did allow to settle for 2 weeks after filtering, but I must say that this is not the way to create modern TDI ready WVO, IMHO.

So I'm not defending anything. I am using process of elimination (POE) to render down to the probable causes. Again, as we all know, using WVO in a modern TDI necessitates strict adherence to oil processing needs and vehicle operation. I fully acknowledge that it takes a rare person to really rise to the challenge. Just because someone has a clean&tidy engine compartment does not mean their fuel and/or operating practices are up to snuff.

OkiTdi said:

Can you explain the chemistry of how veggie-based crankcase oil would have made a difference?

OkiTDI

Click to expand...

I'm no chemist. But the theory is that a plant-based engine oil will not polymerize when diluted with biodiesel or WVO as it is designed for this. Plantomot and Biomot are both oils that are used all over EU specifically for this.

Probably Rapeseed oil. Rapeseed is known for high quality industrial lubricants, which ones I could not tell you but that is one of it's original uses.

I agree, SVO/WVO is a time bomb on these motors sooner or later...

DB

Drivbiwire said:

Probably Rapeseed oil. Rapeseed is known for high quality industrial lubricants, which ones I could not tell you but that is one of it's original uses.

I agree, SVO/WVO is a time bomb on these motors sooner or later...

DB

Click to expand...

I can only quote myself:

Chasee said:

You do know that the statement about a timebomb applies to stock vehicles running on D2 as well, right? The old "it'll happen someday!" may sound ominous to some, but most of us realize it is actualy a non sequitur, just as much as if I said "it'll last forever!".

Click to expand...

Chasee, I'd love to see your setup. And regarding oil change intervals, filtration, and purging, I'm always willing to listen and learn. Bring it up to H05G on the 18th if you can. There will be a lot of interest.

As far as the time bomb comment goes, it's not a non sequitur. All the components in our cars have an expected life span. When MAFs fail every six months we're annoyed. When a turbo goes over 200K we're pleased. DR's components (rear main seal, turbo, valves, cylinder walls) all had a far shorter than expected life span. That's why I called it a time bomb. When I hear WVO drivers say they expect to replace an IP annually, that means something's wrong. And I'm more than willing to agree that many people probably don't use correct practices in running WVO.

What's H05G?

Yea, if I had to replace an IP annually, I'd be pissed too.

The time bomb thing is totally content-free. You're saying it based on circumstantial evidence. I could say, based on my circumstantial evidence, that it will last forever, but I don't.

Now, to be more accurate, using WVO may or may not result in decreased lifespan of major or minor engine components. It also may or may not increase the lifespan of major or minor engine components due to increased lubricity. That basically adds up to "we don't know because nobody has done any true scientific life-cycle analysis of this practice". So it is only fair to steer clear of inflammatory statements like "its a time bomb".

This is HO5G

Its a big get-together in Southern New Hampshire on August 18th. You should come!

OkiTDI posted:
"Can you explain the chemistry of how veggie-based crankcase oil would have made a difference?"

Sorry , no. I'm not a chemist. However, as an Elsbett dealer, I can relay that veggie-based crankase oils are REQUIRED by Elsbett. As is a 7,500 km OCI.
Until this week, these oils were not even available in N.A. Many 'polers' use them in Germany.
I have no idea if poly. played a role in this failure. As someone speculated earlier.
If it ocurred, it was a sympton, not the casue of the failure.

I agree with Chasee's assessment so far. I'm curious if the recently installed fatter injectors or RC3 played a roll. I apologize to DR for the 'post mortem'.

"When I pulled my injectors last month for the Sprint 520's, the stock nozzles looked fine. " DR 2/13/07
"Next week I am going to a VNT-17/22 turbo and PP 764 injectors." DR 7/13/07

Bsaed on this info, if the injectors 'looked fine' in January, the engine was probably fine in January.
IMO, modifying an SVO converted engine to try to burn more fuel is risky.
The VO burns slowly. Putting an excess of VO in doesn't seem like a good idea.

OK, I must be totally brain dead, but I can't find an address or location. Could be all those veggie fumes I'm inhaling.

Those looking for Panolin BioMot:

> > Chuck Ramage
> > Chief Operations Officer
> > Panolin America, Inc.
> > 1500 Mariner Drive, Unit A-2
> > Oxnard, CA 93033-2462
> > Tel: (805) 486-6300
> > Fax: (805) 486-6330
> > Cell: (805) 207-5180

BioMot 10W40 is rated CH-4, and not 505.01
$200 for 25 Liters, plus shipping. ( about $8/qt)

No, I meant for the HO5GTG.

Any info on the location?

It's in Hampstead NH, near Manchester. Peter usually posts the address the week of on the first post.

I don't agree that my evidence is circumstantial. I would, however, agree that it's anecdotal. If there's a hard, polymer-like build-up on nozzles or valves it has to come from the WVO, wouldn't you agree? A melted piston, or holed on (I've seen that, too), however, could be circumstantial. Why does an injector stick in the open position? Could be lots of reasons.

And btw, DR's car was probably not fine in January. I was at the GTG when he got the nozzles and chipped, and it was both smokey and seemed down on power. So whatever was going wrong was underway.

I stand corrected. I actually did mean anecdotal, but did a big brain fart by using circumstantial. Durr, my bad.

Yep, most of those things you list would be caused by improper use of WVO. Big question is, would they happen with what I consider to be proper WVO use. I'm still happy to be a self-appointed guinea pig, so expect me to become more and more satisfied that WVO is a viable fuel in TDIs and PD TDIs. But, also expect me to post many details in the event I suffer a failure, even if it is not readily apparent that WVO was the cause.

I guess my fantasy would be that at 150K, VW, or someone similarly equipped, would buy my car and do a full tear down wear analysis. I'm not holding my breath, but the offer is on the table.

One of the aspects that I noted in the tear-down of DR's engine was that there may have been leaking #3 and #4 injectors. They might have even been spraying instead of popping. I was not able to lay that question to rest, because the nozzles had just been changed out from PP520's to some 764's. The nozzles appeared to be popping properly when I tested them, however, they nozzles were very sooted up.
Three different Veggie TDI's on which I did the forensics, there was unburned veggie fuel that was thickly coating the combustion chamber, running over into the rings and making either the top ring or the scraper ring stick. Once either or both of those rings stop working, it's not as much the loss of compression (the engine will still run), but the homogenization of the WVO and the crankcase oil that creats a very deadly problem. The engine oil is not altered by going through the turbo. Buy the WVO cokes at a very low temperature. The WVO will coke up the turbo shaft.

The second part of the problem is that you have increased the blow-by with a ring stuck. Combine that with a reduced volume in the combustion chamber, extra blow-by and therefore, more oil in the CCV, add the goo in the turbo and you have imminent catastrophic failure from a predilection to hydro-lock due to a runaway motor.

All this, I believe, can be caused by injectors running a fuel that usually is many times thicker than D2. Also, the resins that cause varnishing of the nozzle lift pin can keep a critical component from operating correctly.

I've not seen many injectors that were run on WVO, but each of the cases I have seen, there is a very stubborn deposit that coats all the internal parts, especially those that are exposed to the most extreme heating in the engine.

My opinion is that making sure your injectors are popping correctly and not leaking is the difference between a destroyed engine and one that has WVO life expectancy.

The other issue is a matter of removing all suspended water from the WVO. The water in this environment makes an explosive type of detonation. The water will burst into a steam explosion at inappropriate times in the cycle of the engine. I believe that water also acts as an additional emulsifying agent in the engine and may also work to remove the protective film of engine oil in the cylinder walls..

I responded privately to emails from some of you. Since that information was posted here anyway I wish to say the following for the record. The manufacturer of my conversion in my opinion is not to blame. I take full responsibility for converting my car and was warned against using soybean oil 2 years ago.

From an email from them in 2005:

"I wouldn't run soy in a Tdi - any uncombusted soy can migrate
into the oil and cause polymerization"

In another email from them in Spring '07

"I see that you mention that you added a "Rocket Chip" (aftermarket performance chip) and bigger injectors. I believe that it was this combination, more than any other factor or factors, that ruined your engine. Soy oil alone is bad enough but the attempts to get more power mean it is extremely likely that more uncombusted fuel was hitting the cylinder walls. Over time, as we know, this will then lead to severe contamination of the lubricating oil and the other effects your engine experienced and eventual destruction of the engine."

I plan to make the above post on the Greasecar forum as this post seems to have spread like wildfire there. I cannot get onto their site now for some reason.

I tried to have it all-A stealth wagon that would haul butt on free fuel.

It didn't work out. Now i will haul on $2.89 fuel or .90 homebrew B100. Maybe we will discuss how I screwed up my car on that in a couple of years.

I still am intrigued by alternative fuels. Hell, if Rudolph Diesel didn't try to run peanut oil in an engine we wouldn't have this fine board would we? Chasee and others are dissecting me, but he may be on to the combination to make this successful. I shared because my combination was not, long term.

Chasee said:

Not so obsessive that he did any oil analysis in 50K miles, or even changed the oil a bit more frequently than 10K. Sorry, but that's not even close to obsessive in my book. I don't mean to insult him, but that alone is tantamount to negligence.

I'm also very worried about how he processed his WVO. So far, it seems he only filtered to 10 microns (not even absolute), and never did any heating/settling of the WVO at all. He did allow to settle for 2 weeks after filtering, but I must say that this is not the way to create modern TDI ready WVO, IMHO.

So I'm not defending anything. I am using process of elimination (POE) to render down to the probable causes. Again, as we all know, using WVO in a modern TDI necessitates strict adherence to oil processing needs and vehicle operation. I fully acknowledge that it takes a rare person to really rise to the challenge. Just because someone has a clean&tidy engine compartment does not mean their fuel and/or operating practices are up to snuff.

Click to expand...

I admit I must not have what it takes to do this successfully and may be inherently negligent, thus my decision to pay the price and try something else. I am not willing to risk doing it again. I hope you continue to do it right. If not, I am sure you will come tell us as forthrightly as i have.

Let the autopsy continue!

I have an Elsbett system in my 2003 AHL. I have run about 2thousand miles on straight veg oil, and another 1thousand miles on wvo. I used filters to drip strain the oil. I also did a water test on anything I put in the car. I wonder, did you to a "pan test" to check for water? I have currently a 50/50 mix of wvo and diesel because I started to get some clogging in the filter. I ran the diesel and power serivce through and it runs fine. I am having a problem with my MAF sensor, but that was an issue before I did the conversion. (I have a pierburg maf in there now and still have a problem, but I diverge.) I believe in order to make wvo a viable option, something more then drip filtering has to happen. I will not use wvo until I get a centrifuge oil cleaner from dieselcraft. I think all because you don't see stuff in the oil doesn't mean there isn't anything there. I was going wait until I got this set up up and running before I posted anything but this message made me at least get my 2 cents in. FOr other reasons, I had to replace a diesel engine, and while it sucks, it's not so bad. Duluth Rooster didin't mention what he did with his oil to clean it, so I would be interested in knowing those steps. I think we owe it to our country and our soldiers to make wvo work. Every time I put vo or wvo in my tank, every time I use my reel mower to cut my grass, or drive 55 mph, instead of brainlessly whipping down the road, I think, not one drop of blood was spilt.

"I've not seen many injectors that were run on WVO, but each of the cases I have seen, there is a very stubborn deposit that coats all the internal parts, especially those that are exposed to the most extreme heating in the engine."

This 'stubborn deposit' is polymerized VO. It turns into a plastic coating when exposed to heat and oxygen over time. If it's on the internals (where it isn't exposed to air), others have suggested that the oxygen came from excess water in the WVO.

What I did right:

1) Source of oil that was changed once a week
2) Settled in cubees for 2 weeks
3) Only poured off the top layer of the cubee
4) Sock filtered to 25 microns, then sock filtered to 10 microns, then Racor filtered down to 10 microns.
5) Thought I was consistently heating my oil to 160 degrees before the IP
6) Used Delvac 1 synthetic in the crankcase
7) Purged diesel through the engine if car was going to sit more than an hour. Yes, some WVO may be getting in the diesel purge tank. That is the nature of a Pollak valve. I felt it would be in low concentrations in my relatively mild climate.

Where I was borderline negligent:

1) I had no dewater procedure
2) I did not reduce my oil change intervals until it was too late
3) I could have filtered to 1 micron but thought that was excessive and very slow
4)Using readily available soybean oil from my good source rather than Canola which is almost impossible for me to find in Atlanta (where the restaurant will give it to me).
5) Doing performance mods

Chasee, Please post this on the Greasecar board for me. You seem to be representing me fine there.

"I will go fast until the day I die" -Colin Chapman, founder of Lotus

Maybe the answer regarding your turbos is in your signature , "ventectomy" is that your snow screen? btw I also run vegoil based crankcase oil..it's called renewable lubrication's biosyn 5w 40. http://www.renewablelube.com/ email them for a price and delivery. cost $33 a gallon. Plantomot, is very very expensive. I don't know about price of this other stuff that Bio Diesel is talking about, but since I found this stuff, I stopped looking. (Bio DIesel actually did a phone consult with me to get me back on track with my Elsbett install. The Elsbett instructions are completely worthless.)

jjohnv said:

Maybe the answer regarding your turbos is in your signature , "ventectomy" is that your snow screen?

Click to expand...

There is a thing you can remove on your diesel filler nozzle that serves as some sort of expansion/air bleed. It allows you to put about an extra gallon in the fuel tank. Do a search on it. Its an easy harmless mod that has nothing to do with the turbo.

DuluthRooster said:

Chasee, Please post this on the Greasecar board for me. You seem to be representing me fine there.

"I will go fast until the day I die" -Colin Chapman, founder of Lotus

Click to expand...

Will do.

BTW, the Grease Car forum software is just hosed. Cool people, but next to worthless user interface.

Sorry to have used such a harsh word as "negligent". It was not intended as a jab against you.

Just so I'm clear, then the purge function didn't really purge in that the return mix went back to the small diesel tank.

I'm pretty sure that's what socked that Passat owner who posted all his problems on his blog.

DuluthRooster said:

[...][FONT=Verdana, arial, sans-serif] I think it was Drivbiwire that said that any money you save by running WVO will eventually be given back. At the time I thought he was a scrooge (well he is ). Well check this out.
[...]
[/FONT]

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Not many people have seen the insides of as many tdi engines as he has.

You're lucky you broke down so close to people who hooked you up. I had an IP go out in the middle of nowhere and had to pay dealer prices, stay at a roach motel, etc.

I wonder how many WVO tdi owners that "disappear" simply sell the cars that they have turned into ticking time bombs... i wonder how many remove all traces of a grease conversion and say nothing to the new buyers.

Andy, I'm interested in what kind of mileage you're getting with your VNT-17, RC3, etc., currently in the wagon?