Crank install, what else

TDI-T

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97 AHU
Need to put in a new crank. Sadly mine only had 168,000, but I lost the rear bolt holes due do a faulty flexplate.
I found a crank with low miles (supposedly 84,000). I've read that replacing main bearings can actually cause more wear to a crank on these?
Say I don't replace the main bearings, just the main bolts (with 12.9's) , but get some Rosten rods and arps, new KS rod bearings, and some new rings (since I'll have to pull the pistons anyway.
Thoughts on this?
I'd like to leave the top half of the engine together and avoid any line honing.
Engine ran great before, but rings are cheap and if I have to pull the pistons anyway... just not sure on cylinder wall ridge and new rings.
Cheers!
 

smelly621

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What motor is this on, and what performance modifications do you have or are planning on?

Are you proposing not removing the head?
 

HamBam

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If you replace the crank, you should also replace the bearings. You should also check the radial clearance of the crank!

Which engine Code do you have?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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There are just too many to list....
It says AHU, but all those were manuals here (so no 'flexplate').

So is this a different engine OR did you mean to say 'flywheel'?

In either case, assuming it is some 4 cyl VAG TDI sold here, you do not need to remove the engine from the car, you can do it all from below. You will of course need to remove the transmission.

Up to you if you want to replace the bearings or not. Mains hardly wear at all. Rod bearings will wear more, but you can tell easily how much they are worn by looking at them once you get it apart. Chances are you'll want to at least replace the rod bearings, just because you'll have them out anyway. And depending on which engine we are talking about, new rod bolts or nuts, too.
 

All Stock

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Pistons come out top side. That means yanking the head. Supposing you could remove the oil squirters and get at them from the bottom... have fun getting the rings compressed properly and all things inserted without breaking one!

As for a re-ring using cast iron rings there's SAE papers about installing without honing that makes a lot of sense. However you still have to set the end gap and that's not going to be fun from underneath either.
All you want to do is doable in car, but you should pull the head off. At this point you will have the trans out...or you already do anyway so its not much more to just yank it.
 

jmodge

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Not quite enough info to give you exact advice. I have done in car bearings on Chevy's before without removing heads. One issue is clearance can't be accurately checked due to compression, weight of rods and pistons putting force against the gap you are checking. So it is some guess work there, if your issue is just one bad main.
I am assuming mains come in oversized combo's?

If you are pulling a piston from it's bore, I recommend rings and honing, at minimum.

So, are you dealing with one bad bearing, or is your crank damaged and pulling and replacing it. If the crank is coming out, then my choice would be to pull the head, hone and ring, check rod trueness(rods can deform during trauma). Pulling a crank and fighting rods hanging in your way when you put it back in is a miserable task.

So, exactly what are you dealing with? One bad main bearing, crank ok? Bad rod bearing, crank ok? Damage to crank that needs replacing?
 

jmodge

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Agree with an above post, if the crank has to come out, pull the engine. Put it on a stand, go through it and do it right. Depending on the severity of the "injury", a lot of things should be checked, at least.
Cranks can also get deformed, rods can twist slightly, rod bores can "squish". I am assuming the motor Knocked?
 

TDI-T

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Thanks for all the responses. I'm running a conversion, so no VW trans. I had it on an automatic Aisin trans. Flexplate bolts didn't hold and they ruined the bolt holes on the crank. Otherwise the engine ran super strong. That's all I think is wrong. No knocking, oil burning, etc.

I'm running a 1Z or AHU with a 4BT pump and with a Garrett 2052 turbo. I wanted to add some stoutness to the bottom end. That's why I wanted to add the Rosten rods. I'm not sure I want to do a whole rebuild when the engines is well below 200,000 miles.

I can pull the engine, but I'm not keen on pulling the head even if I do. I have a new timing belt, water pump, and my injection pump timing was great.

It sounds like pulling pistons is not going to work. I was just hoping to get by for less than $1000 with a stronger bottom end and not a whole lot more work. Can I put the Rosten rods in without pulling the pistons? I'm guessing not.

It is really hard to know where to start and stop. I suppose I could just go stock on some rod bearings with new stock bolts all around and call it good. I just wanted some stronger rods in case I play with boost a bit.

Really appreciate the opinions.
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Not sure what the upper limit of the AHU's bottom end is and still be reliable. Up to you if you want to update it, but as I said above, if all you want/need to do is replace the crank, that can all be done from below, unless your conversion in some way prohibits doing so. You just unbolt the rods and leave them hang by the pistons in the block from above.





A couple pictures of cars I put crankshafts in. Engines never left the car.

I took your original post as "Well since I have to take the pistons and rods out to replace the crank..." when you actually do not have to do that.
 

TDI-T

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A couple pictures of cars I put crankshafts in. Engines never left the car.
Just putting in a crank is tempting. Did you add any new bearings and bolts?

My challenge is I have a third member in the way (this is in a 4x4). So, it's either pull the engine or the front axle assembly. With the trans out the engine pull is looking like the route to go.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The top one is an AEG 2.0L gas engine, and it was a used crank install, so I used the used mains that were with the crank and put new rod bearings in, with new rod cap nuts, and new main cap bolts.

The bottom pic is a BHW after the chain drive was allowed to blow apart and starved the engine for oil. It got a NEW crank, new main and rod bearings, new rod and main cap bolts.

Main bearings really do not wear much at all so long as the engine is not run out of oil. I have torn some VAG engines down (like my old ME 1.6L) with over 400k miles, and the mains looked great. The outer babbitt not even worn through. The stout deep skirt design helps keep the crank from flexing, and the crank themselves are very sturdy chunky little things.
 

smelly621

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Thing is - if you're replacing the crank you're going to have to remove the timing belt, and deal with replacing front and rear main seals. Also think about maybe throwing in a new oil pump chain and tensioner?

I would plasti-gauge the main and rod bearing clearances.

If you're not getting paid (or paying) by the hour to do this - take the extra couple and pull the motor- it will be much more pleasant.

To install new rods the current ones must come out the top. If you go that far - might be worth your while to install some pistons with better oil cooling channels - I think that's one of the most important upgrades on a motor that's been swapped into a significantly heavier vehicle. Also think about a larger oil/coolant heat exchanger while you're at it.

Never heard of it around here - but would some sort of time-sert / thread-sert be an option on the flywheel bolt holes?
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Thing is - if you're replacing the crank you're going to have to remove the timing belt, and deal with replacing front and rear main seals. Also think about maybe throwing in a new oil pump chain and tensioner?
I would plasti-gauge the main and rod bearing clearances.
If you're not getting paid (or paying) by the hour to do this - take the extra couple and pull the motor- it will be much more pleasant.
To install new rods the current ones must come out the top. If you go that far - might be worth your while to install some pistons with better oil cooling channels - I think that's one of the most important upgrades on a motor that's been swapped into a significantly heavier vehicle. Also think about a larger oil/coolant heat exchanger while you're at it.
Never heard of it around here - but would some sort of time-sert / thread-sert be an option on the flywheel bolt holes?
The AHU has no chain. :p
 

turbovan+tdi

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What is this remove the head to replace a crankshaft bs? I'd pull the engine, I've done the in car crank method and its not fun.

As for bearings, what oilhammer said, I inspect and only replace if necessary. IF the crush is a little weak, just gently spread them out.
 
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jmodge

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My bad on the crank replacement in car comment, thinking of V-8's, oops, sorry.

Would be cheap insurance to slide pieces of rubber hose over your rod bolts as soon as the caps come off to keep from scratching the crank.
 

jmodge

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Another thought, weather you want to try or trust it. I have plugged holes, not in a crank, by tapping and running a bolt in(don't run threads all the way through so you can bottom the bolt), cut the bolt and redrill and tap new holes.
 

TDI-T

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Another thought, weather you want to try or trust it. I have plugged holes, not in a crank, by tapping and running a bolt in(don't run threads all the way through so you can bottom the bolt), cut the bolt and redrill and tap new holes.
The cranks holes are pretty messed up. Plus two bolts broke off in the crank holes. Think oblong on the other holes. I torqued them, used blue loctite, but they still came loose. Next time I may use red loctite.

I thought hard about trying to use it again, but the time it will take to drill out and get those broken bolts off made me just find a new crank. I could go with bigger bolts in the VW crank, but my flex plate leaves little room for bigger bolts.

Maybe I will post a pic so you can see if you are curious.
 
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TDI-T

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If you go that far - might be worth your while to install some pistons with better oil cooling channels - I think that's one of the most important upgrades on a motor that's been swapped into a significantly heavier vehicle. Also think about a larger oil/coolant heat exchanger while you're at it.
Which pistons would you recommend if I decide to spend some serious $$?
 

turbovan+tdi

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Which pistons would you recommend if I decide to spend some serious $$?
The PD engines got the better oiling pistons but what boost are you running? RPM?
 

TDIMeister

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BHW 0.5 oversize pistons if you want to go with the biggest and baddest.
 

TDI-T

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The PD engines got the better oiling pistons but what boost are you running? RPM?
My rpm's are usually pretty low being a 4x4. I hit 3000 and above, but usually not for long. Mostly they stay at 2k or a little higher.

I still need to get my boost tightened up. I can only get 12 psi or so. I'm told I should be able to get 20+ easy with this turbo. I'd like to run around 20 - 23 psi as I think that is what I have read is the limit on internals.
 
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TDI-T

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Can I use a micrometer to determine if my crank needs to be ground? I've got some manuals so hopefully they will tell me the tolerances to check on the bearings as well.

Unless someone knows them offhand...

I'm leaning toward new bolts, new thrust bearings, new mains and rod bearings and calling it good. From what I've read people seem to recommend Kolbenschmidt bearings. I will not go ARP as I don't want to do a line hone.

Any strong advice regarding why I may not want to go this route?
 
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jmodge

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Can I use a micrometer to determine if my crank needs to be ground? I've got some manuals so hopefully they will tell me the tolerances to check on the bearings as well.

Unless someone knows them offhand...

I'm leaning toward new bolts, new thrust bearings, new mains and rod bearings and calling it good. From what I've read people seem to recommend Kolbenschmidt bearings. I will not go ARP as I don't want to do a line hone.

Any strong advice regarding why I may not want to go this route?
Someone will dig up the tolerances. As far as clearance goes, you can mic the journal and there should be a spec for that. Then install the bearing in the cap and use a innermic or telescoping gauge. Or go with plastigauge after assembly. But by using the mics at least you know which size bearings to put in in the first place.
 

andy2

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I'd be more than tempted to leave the main bearings alone and just replace the bolts and rod bearings if needed.Replacing the main bearings without checking/correcting a possible journal misalignment could create a new problem.I've seen those 028 blocks have misaligned main bearing journals.

I had the flywheel to crank bolts come loose on my acme TDI swap.They weren't falling out but they had loosened up.I only came across this as I was swapping out the trans for an auto and had to remove the flywheel.

I have used some arp bolts (#524-2801) from a ford 4.6/5.4L flywheel application on my other TDI that used a flywheel from spec clutch.They were a perfect replacement for the stock length vw bolts.I also doweled the crank to flywheel in that case as the flywheel had friction welded itself to the crankshaft when the bolts came loose.

From what I remember the acme flywheel bolts in my case were longer than the factory vw ones so the ford ARP ones I mentioned might not be long enough depending on the flywheel/flexplate being used.
 

TDI-T

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I'd be more than tempted to leave the main bearings alone and just replace the bolts and rod bearings if needed.Replacing the main bearings without checking/correcting a possible journal misalignment could create a new problem.I've seen those 028 blocks have misaligned main bearing journals.
I had the flywheel to crank bolts come loose on my acme TDI swap.They weren't falling out but they had loosened up.I only came across this as I was swapping out the trans for an auto and had to remove the flywheel.
I have used some arp bolts (#524-2801) from a ford 4.6/5.4L flywheel application on my other TDI that used a flywheel from spec clutch.They were a perfect replacement for the stock length vw bolts.I also doweled the crank to flywheel in that case as the flywheel had friction welded itself to the crankshaft when the bolts came loose.
From what I remember the acme flywheel bolts in my case were longer than the factory vw ones so the ford ARP ones I mentioned might not be long enough depending on the flywheel/flexplate being used.
Tons of great info here. Thank you. Is it possible that having that flex plate loose could hurt the bearings? I ask because it seems to have taken out the rear main seal....
While I don't remember doing it, I just can't believe I didn't torque those bolts AND have loctite on them. Not sure why they came loose.
 

jmodge

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Yes, very possible, with the out of balance factor. If it was me, I would look the mains over before pulling the crank. If everything is ok, possibly pull crank and repair holes? I don't if I would put the old bearings on another crank. PM oilhammer on that. Seems to be a pretty accomplished mechanic on these TDI's
 
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