"Volkswagen’s Tennessee plant sets new standard for low wages"

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aja8888

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If you want jobs, come to the following states:

Texas
Ohio
North Dakota
South Dakota

The oil business is booming (did you hear me? BOOMING) in these states (and others). And for those who can't understand Ohio being on that list, the Erie Formation is thought to hold billions of barrels of oil. Ask Chesapeake and Enervest who are going gangbusters drilling into that formation. BTW, that production goes into PA and IN.

The Eagleford play in south Texas is thought to be the biggest find in US history, but of course, time will tell.

Texas has no state income tax and housing is inexpensive, but bring your suntan lotion.

The only issue here is that you will have to actually show up, work, and pass drug tests. The pay is very good. The industry (and supporting businesses) are also seeking workers.
 

bhtooefr

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Of course, maybe an answer to labor shortages there is, actually judge job performance, rather than what the person does with their free time?

(In other words, if they use drugs in their free time, don't fail them. Now, if they use drugs on the job, that's grounds for firing...)
 

axnels2

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Is America a small tribe? Is our global market the manifestation of a small tribe? Political systems are part of civilizations. Civilizations are collectives. Political systems are collective processes, even if they come from small tribes.

Government happens when you have a group of three people that land on a formerly deserted island. When you have a group of people, you have a collective. It's that simple.

What you refer to is a society - a collective. A civilization (art, math, sciences, religion) is a product of society. My argument was that you are not using correct terminology.
 

bhtooefr

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Of course, I have a solution for that one... (admittedly difficult to implement for software, though.) Any products that are created with labor that is lower than US standards are taxed at a rate that would make up the labor cost difference between the estimated actual labor costs, and what those costs would be if a US worker making minimum wage, with the required benefits for a minimum wage full-time employee, made the product.

Then, those taxes are put into a fund.

Any US goods that are purchased by foreign entities, those entities get a refund on their goods at the end of the year, from that fund.

So, what you do there is, make it so that lower labor standards aren't profitable for goods being sold into the US, and you make your goods price competitive with foreign, low labor standard, goods.
 

MonsterTDI09

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My point, which I think you glossed over, is that Obama et. al. To blawould not have the ability to double the national debt if it were not for countless reckless administrations that came before him.

To blame others is a easy out, they had to deal with the same problems.But to double the debt to get things going,and it have not work and still blame sombody else is poor leadership.
 

oxford_guy

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You missed a few...
The European Union is one thing, but individual countries in Europe are another. As my list shows, the notion that "socialism" in Europe guarantees high unemployment is false. Plus, the European Union unemployment rate that you quoted isn't much different than the US' — making your point what again?

And, you apparently missed this:

Americans generally underestimate the degree of income inequality in the United States, and if given a choice, would distribute wealth in a similar way to the social democracies of Scandinavia, a new study finds.

For decades, polls have shown that a plurality of Americans -- around 40 percent -- consider themselves conservative, while only around 20 percent self-identify as liberals. But a new study from two noted economists casts doubt on what values lie beneath those political labels.

According to research (PDF) carried out by Michael I. Norton of Harvard Business School and Dan Ariely of Duke University, 92 percent of Americans would choose to live in a society with far less income disparity than the US, choosing Sweden's model over that of the US.

What's more, the study's authors say that this applies to people of all income levels and all political leanings: The poor and the rich, Democrats and Republicans are all equally likely to choose the Swedish model.

Recent analyses have shown that income inequality in the US has grown steadily for the past three decades and reached its highest level on record, exceeding even the large disparities seen in the 1920s, before the Great Depression. Norton and Ariely estimate that the one percent wealthiest Americans hold nearly 50 percent of the country's wealth, while the richest 20 percent hold 84 percent of the wealth.

But in their study, the authors found Americans greatly underestimate the income disparity. When asked to estimate, respondents on average estimated that the top 20 percent have 59 percent of the wealth (as opposed to the real number, 84 percent). And when asked to choose how much the top 20 percent should have, on average respondents said 32 percent -- a number similar to the wealth distribution seen in Sweden.

"What is most striking" about the results, argue the authors, is that they show "more consensus than disagreement among ... different demographic groups.

"Just as people have erroneous beliefs about the actual level of wealth inequality, they may also hold overly optimistic beliefs about opportunities for social mobility in the United States, beliefs which in turn may drive support for unequal distributions of wealth," they write.

"Americans exhibit a general disconnect between their attitudes towards economic inequality and their self-interest and public policy preferences, suggesting that even given increased awareness of the gap between ideal and actual wealth distributions, Americans may remain unlikely to advocate for policies that would narrow this gap," the authors argue.

Norton and Ariely's survey was carried out on 5,522 respondents in 47 states in December of 2005. The results are to be published in the journal Perspectives on Psychological Science.
 

oxford_guy

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If you want jobs, come to the following states:

Texas
...

Texas has no state income tax and housing is inexpensive, but bring your suntan lotion.

The only issue here is that you will have to actually show up, work, and pass drug tests. The pay is very good. The industry (and supporting businesses) are also seeking workers.
CNN Aug 11 said:
Texas leads the nation in minimum-wage jobs, and many positions don't offer health benefits. Also, steep budget cuts are expected to result in the loss of more than 100,000 jobs. Perhaps most importantly, Texas can't create jobs fast enough to keep up with its rapidly growing population.

Factoring in that population growth means Texas would need to create another 629,000 jobs, or 5.6% more positions, just to reach its pre-recession employment level, according to the Economic Policy Institute.

"They have a long way to go before they get back to a positive place," said Doug Hall, director of the Economic Analysis and Research Network, an institute project.

Rich in natural resources, the state has been benefiting from the high price of oil and the expanded interest in natural gas exploration.

Texans face challenges on the jobs front. Many of the positions that have been created are on the lower end of the pay scale. Some 550,000 workers last year were paid at or below the federal minimum wage of $7.25, more than double the number making those wages in 2008, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

That's 9.5% of Texas' hourly workforce, which gives it the highest percentage of minimum-wage hourly workers in the nation -- a dubious title it shares with Mississippi.

"We have created jobs, but they are not jobs with good wages and benefits," said F. Scott McCown, executive director, Center for Public Policy Priorities, which advocates for low-income residents.

Going forward, the Lone Star State will have to work even harder to create jobs. That's because Perry signed a budget in May that slashes $15 billion in government spending over the next two years. Also, the federal stimulus funds that poured into the state since 2009 have largely dried up.

The state budget cuts alone could result in the loss of more than 100,000 jobs, many of them in the public sector, Clower said. Thousands of teachers are already feeling the impact of more than $5 billion in cuts to education funding.

The state's rapidly expanding population has been both a blessing and a curse. While it has spurred the creation of jobs to service the new residents, it has also kept the state's unemployment rate higher than one would expect for a place that's adding so many positions. Texas' unemployment rate is 8.2% -- lower than the nation's, but higher than 25 other states.
Not so rosy, unless you're in the energy industry.
 

oxford_guy

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What you refer to is a society - a collective. A civilization (art, math, sciences, religion) is a product of society. My argument was that you are not using correct terminology.
And mine is that arguing that "capitalism" is something separate from the collective distribution of resources is incorrect. Capitalism is just another form of socialism with an emphasis on greed. True capitalism is unsustainable anarchy and doesn't exist in the world for any significant period of time.

No matter what label is placed on it, society/civilization/whatever is a collective. Groups of people are groups of people. And, as I noted, globalization has eroded tribal (national) boundaries and made humanity more of a collective than before.
 

thebigarniedog

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Can there be a dialogue with people whose focus is on proportioning historic "Blame" as a mode of deflecting the reality of the present circumstances? By analogy, does it really matter to the mechanic repairing a car whose fault (ie caused) the problem (for this analogy, the arsehattery of the wife or husband)? I would suggest that the fix by the mechanic is independent of the laying of the actual "fault". I would likewise suggest that the fix is the same on other levels as well.

There are plenty of people who prefer to spend their day sitting on their arse, and using drugs "recreationally" --- whatever that means. There are plenty of people who complain that they have had to work a whole "x" number of months, so they deserve time off through unemployment --- especially since taking a job would pay less then what they are getting in unemployment. They deserve it afterall :confused:.

I work with alot of people and I get to hear and see alot of what they believe they deserve. Maybe my problem is that I grew up poor, had to work through school and still have to work two jobs six days a week to pay our bills. Maybe if I could just print (or borrow) a bunch of money, with no plan on ever repaying it, life would be better. I could just tell the Bank that I can't live within my means, because it is a priority that I drive my kids to school in a new $60(k) vehicle or that it is a priority that I buy a Mansion. The bank would laugh at me --- so why isn't that the case Nationally?

So I applaud the people of TN and everywhere else in this Country that want to work and pay their bills.
 

bhtooefr

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By analogy, does it really matter to the mechanic repairing a car whose fault (ie caused) the problem (for this analogy, the arsehattery of the wife or husband)? I would suggest that the fix by the mechanic is independent of the laying of the actual "fault". I would likewise suggest that the fix is the same on other levels as well.
OK, here's an example.

Let's say that your car's battery keeps dying.

A bad mechanic would say, "well, the fault is that battery" and replace it with another battery. This is replacing a corrupt politician with another one.

A good mechanic would troubleshoot, realize that there's a slow parasitic draw, and repair that. This is removing the corruption from the system.
 

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I hate to say it but this is the land of the people.

Believe me if the top 1% created a monopoly and said tomorrow no one in the US makes more then 5$/hour from now on we would have 2 choices, bend over and take it or revolt. While the rich may have all the power they can only push the the bottom 99% so far.

And for unskilled labor look at the money VWs CEO is making. any joker with an MBA could do his job and honestly Fred would probably do a better job running the company just because he has a passion for the product.
 

thebigarniedog

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OK, here's an example.

Let's say that your car's battery keeps dying.

A bad mechanic would say, "well, the fault is that battery" and replace it with another battery. This is replacing a corrupt politician with another one.

A good mechanic would troubleshoot, realize that there's a slow parasitic draw, and repair that. This is removing the corruption from the system.
My point -----------> you -------------> missing it still.

My offered analogy is for the purpose that irrespective of how we got to our current circumstances, the goal is to fix it .....


I hate to say it but this is the land of the people.

Believe me if the top 1% created a monopoly and said tomorrow no one in the US makes more then 5$/hour from now on we would have 2 choices, bend over and take it or revolt. While the rich may have all the power they can only push the the bottom 99% so far.

And for unskilled labor look at the money VWs CEO is making. any joker with an MBA could do his job ........
Really? You know this how? Ford, Chrysler and GM have people in various levels of Management with similar letters after their names. Ford is successfull, so much so they avoided bankruptcy. The other 2 did not. Why? One person: Alan Mulally. Research him and you will know why. It pays to be a winner.

The reason is similar to why in Pro Baseball the team with the best Pitching wins --- virtually all the time. One dominent Pitcher can propel a team through the Playoffs. The Pitcher is more important then all the other 8 fielders. There is no equity in work. A Pitcher is so important they get on average 4 games off, just to Pitch one. They are also paid on average more then any other position. If "any joker can do the job" is true, why can't the other 8 on the field :rolleyes:. Their all baseball players, right?

Life is like Pitching. The right people in the right position at the right time makes all the difference.
 

bhtooefr

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My point -----------> you -------------> missing it still.

My offered analogy is for the purpose that irrespective of how we got to our current circumstances, the goal is to fix it .....
And my offered analogy is for the purpose of showing that sometimes, you have to know how we got to our current circumstances, or even what our current circumstances are, before you can truly fix them, instead of putting yet another bandaid on the problem.
 

jagardn

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The European Union is one thing, but individual countries in Europe are another. As my list shows, the notion that "socialism" in Europe guarantees high unemployment is false. Plus, the European Union unemployment rate that you quoted isn't much different than the US' — making your point what again?

And, you apparently missed this:
You brought up the unemployment numbers, not me. Wealth distribution and the entitlement mentality will eventually lead to insolvency, as some of the European countries are seeing right now. Our problems will be even worse, at least the other countries aren't likely to monetize their debt as we are doing. Our debt is already too high, factor in the unfunded liabilities like SS and Medicare, and we are F***ed. The FED thinks that printing money fixes everything, and that our lenders and buyers overvalued treasuries will last forever. Our inflation values are kept falsely low so those investors keep the faith. Once our investors realize we can't make good on our payments, it's game over.
 

thebigarniedog

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And my offered analogy is for the purpose of showing that sometimes, you have to know how we got to our current circumstances, or even what our current circumstances are, before you can truly fix them, instead of putting yet another bandaid on the problem.
:rolleyes:

For the left: Blame Bush, Republicans

For the Right: Blame Clinton/Obama, Democrats

We know who the blamers blame and haters hate. We now they are stuck on their own rhetoric and we also know it is not relevant to the solution.
 

bhtooefr

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I blame the republicans AND democrats, and their corporate masters, and also think that they're a symptom of a systemic issue.

To extend the car analogy, turns out, someone did a really bad job of installing a WVO kit, hacked up the wiring, and it leaked grease into the alternator. Oh, and all the other WVO problems too, so the engine barely runs at all, consumes oil like there's no tomorrow, etc., etc.

The cure there is, rip everything out and replace with new or good used. Similarly, the cure here is to replace the ENTIRE broken government of the US with properly working, not corrupted government.
 

aja8888

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..........the cure here is to replace the ENTIRE broken government of the US with properly working, not corrupted government.
The cast of participants would have to be robots and not products of the political system to have those traits and qualities. Maybe aliens from another planet?....Cartoon characters? :D
 

bhtooefr

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Well, I'd say the US government lasted OKish for about 90 years before it became irrevocably corrupted.
 

oxford_guy

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oxford_guy

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You brought up the unemployment numbers, not me.
Yes, and? Many countries in Europe, including Sweden (which 92% of Americans in that survey that everyone has ignored here wanted our wealth distribution model to match) have lower unemployment than the USA.
Wealth distribution and the entitlement mentality will eventually lead to insolvency
Wealth distribution happens everywhere, including the US. As for entitlement mentality -- is that like Paulson's belief that he's entitled to take in one hour what someone earning $50,000 yr would make in a lifetime? What about the golden parachutes for CEOs?
as some of the European countries are seeing right now.
Norway and Sweden are in dire straits because of their more equitable wealth distribution? How so?
Our problems will be even worse
But I thought the argument is that there's something worse about having a European-style wealth distribution model?
Our debt is already too high, factor in the unfunded liabilities like SS and Medicare, and we are F***ed.
Social Security and Medicare are hardly major factors in our economic malaise, nor is the national debt our biggest problem.
 

oxford_guy

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If someone criticizes someone, then they have the responsibility to back up that criticism with evidence. People are not entitled to take lazy one-line personal attack pot shots at people in a legitimate discussion.
 

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OG: Regarding rebuttals, perhaps you should go through this thread and look at your responses. There have been many responses to your positions that you have either ignored or countered only by re-stating your position. That is no way to debate an issue and that is why some have been annoyed by you.
 

oxford_guy

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There have been many responses to your positions that you have either ignored or countered only by re-stating your position. That is no way to debate an issue and that is why some have been annoyed by you.
Provide examples.

No one has responded to the post about the survey, and that survey is a very important thing in the context of this topic.

No one responded to the post about Texas and minimum wage jobs and jobs that don't have health benefits.

No one has been able to support the notion that countries like Norway and Sweden are failing economically because of more equitable wealth distribution, wealth distribution that over 90% of Americans (according to that study I cited) desire.

No one has justified the use of buzz-phrases like "entitlement mentality" given that they have only applied such phrases to regular workers and not elites.

People have posted a lot of false things, like that Social Security is somehow at the heart of our economic woes.

As for restating positions, plenty of people have done that very thing. That is less of a problem than the pot shots like "academic elitist" I put together in a post above.

I know turning the topic into a referendum on my character is easier than rebutting what I've said, though.
 
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