What is Handling?

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Finally, Shine is no longer producing springs, and I don't think they're producing bars either.

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Apparently they are producing springs and bars again. I just installed both on my Mk4 Jetta, along with Koni FSBs. From what I saw, Kerma is the exclusive distributor? The springs were backordered, had to wait a month for them.

I heard that two. Back in March when I posted I don't think they'd re-started production.

Apparently it's been pretty recent. From what I heard there is such high demand they are having trouble keeping up. Killed me having everything else sitting here, waiting on the springs. But it was worth the wait. I'm no expert but the ride is sweet. Firm but smooth and responsive.

Howlin Wolf said:

Apparently they are producing springs and bars again. I just installed both on my Mk4 Jetta, along with Koni FSBs. From what I saw, Kerma is the exclusive distributor? The springs were backordered, had to wait a month for them.

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How is the Shine spring different? Is it a straight rate, rising rate, or...

Mk IV Jetta wagon is probably in need of a suspension refresh.

Handling

Well, I posted in another thread already, but this one has helped a lot. And I always try to read what Peter has posted. Bought the STR-T struts/shocks from ID, and a set of H&R sport springs from a member. After I put them in, the car has not tracked straight. No matter how flat a road I find, there is significant torque steer to the Left on acceleration, and on hard deceleration (not braking, just letting off the gas completely) the car pulls/drifts to the right. If i coast at any speed, the car will track straight. Have replaced all bushings in front suspension in the last two years. Did the rear axle bushings recently, after reading some threads on that. Did the cupra R bushings, but nothing changed in the tracking. The only thing I can think of is sub frame bushings. I did lower the passenger side of the subframe to get the passenger side strut out and in, and did not replace the stretch bolt. Have had it at two well respected german car shops, and they all say alignment is great, geometry is great and parts are tight... May do the sub frame bushings and align again with fingers crossed. Any suggestions?

How are the tires?

new

tires are brand new. put them on right before the suspension upgrade. And no obvious uneven wear as of yet.

Skullbag said:

Well, I posted in another thread already, but this one has helped a lot. And I always try to read what Peter has posted. Bought the STR-T struts/shocks from ID, and a set of H&R sport springs from a member. After I put them in, the car has not tracked straight. No matter how flat a road I find, there is significant torque steer to the Left on acceleration, and on hard deceleration (not braking, just letting off the gas completely) the car pulls/drifts to the right. If i coast at any speed, the car will track straight.

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My situation is almost identical to yours, though I think the problem began before I replaced old Koni Reds with new Koni Reds. Also, my Golf tracks straight when coasting or when using cruise control.

I'll be following your posts and will post here when I isolate the problem with my Golf.

well it took a couple of days, but i made it through the whole thread. A lot of it I knew from my Subaru days, but it was great to refresh it all from a VW perspective. I particularly like the in-depth takedown of "go fast" suspension upgrades that don't actually yield much more performance.

Actually, I find R&T's comparo of the Mk6 GTI and TDI to be pretty illuminating. Yes, the TDi is slower in a drag race, but the handling numbers are very close; for all its alleged sport upgrades, the GTI only edges the TDI by a couple of percentage points. And was beaten by the TDI in braking (I suspect the 18" Detroits didn't help, as they weigh about as much as a small moon)

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews/car-comparison-tests/2010-volkswagen-golf-gti-vs-golf-tdi

Delayed, much delayed, thank you!

Greetings all, my apologies for being slow/absent in my offering of thanks!

So, my family and I are planning a move to Phoenix, AZ! Once we arrive and settle in a bit, I plan to reach out to the local TDI guys in hopes of finding a GTG and begin working to refresh/improve the handling of my MKIV Golf TDI!

My plans include, in no particular order:
* TyrolSport solid subframe bushings
* Shifter help - undecided, but leaning towards DieselGeek, and perhaps some bushings....open to suggestions, but wrong thread.
* Bilstein HD's and new rubber throughout
* Rear bar - likely Shine
* New Springs - either factory or Shine

In hunting for some AZ TDI guys, I have found a few that are also somewhat quite on the forums (yes, I searched the Regional forum) as well as facebook and other less likely sources). Please reach out if you are in the Phoenix area!

Thanks again, to each of you!

TornadoRed said:

My situation is almost identical to yours, though I think the problem began before I replaced old Koni Reds with new Koni Reds. Also, my Golf tracks straight when coasting or when using cruise control.
I'll be following your posts and will post here when I isolate the problem with my Golf.

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It was a control arm bushing, but the forward one and not the one which was already an upgraded TT bushing. Hard to detect a problem with it visually, I guess.

TornadoRed said:

It was a control arm bushing, but the forward one and not the one which was already an upgraded TT bushing. Hard to detect a problem with it visually, I guess.

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I haven't seen any MK4 with really bad worn out lower front control arm bushings, usually its the back ones that wear out severely. But on MK5 I had seen few cars came in with severely worn out front control arm bushings usually right side seemed to be the most common one that would cause enough play in steering that would vibrate severely especially under braking or acceleration. They would wear out so badly that there very good play in wheel when car is up in air and you could move wheel back and fort and can easily misdiagnose for bad wheel bearing if not paying attention close enough to see where actually play is at.

Took my mk6 to summit point for a track day. My only upgrades were 18" black Karthoums and high performance tires.

The car handled admirably, to say the least. Given my skill level, I have dropped all further suspension mod plans and will instead spend the money on more track days. This car's mechanical grip should not be underestimated. Summer tires transformed it.

lucien2 said:

Summer tires transformed it.

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It's funny how people will spend money on suspension but won't use good tires. They do make a huge difference. Driving my wagon on Hoosier slicks on the track was eye-opening. However, it was also expensive: my calculations were it cost $100/hour to run those tires. But they were sticky.

couldn't have said it better myself. Tires, tires, tires. Then the rest. I ran the last of the tread off the Goodyear Eagles that came with the wheels from the PO, and they were a huge improvement over the stock touring rubber. And then I put on Continental Extreme Contact DW Summer tires, and THAT was a huge improvement over the Eagles. It isn't sexy, like you make your first stoplight turn and go "oh wow, check that out!" But hit your favorite cloverleaf and the ultimate grip of the car is obviously far ahead of where it was before.

I'll tell you something, at the track this car, bone stock but for the 18"s and good tires, surprised people. Both instructors for the day commented on it. It certainly had more grip than I was qualified to fully exploit. Yes it was a little slow out of low speed exits, but that's my fault for all my novice early apex moments. It's a momentum car, not a drag car. Having said that, among other novices in "better" and "faster" cars, this Golf was all heart, and got around cars that should have stomped it. Again, not because it's faster....my point is, even a Golf TDi has formidable capabilities few of us are trained well enough to exploit. I sucked as a novice, but I sucked a little less than the others, with the result that the TDI was "faster" that day than a 911, whose owner quickly learned to be terrified of his gas pedal, a Trans Am that couldn't turn to save its life, and a BRZ, which also had major problems getting power down on a slightly wet track through its dinky Prius tires.

So ya....I'm spending my money on track time for now. Maybe if I qualify for solo runs I'll begin thinking about mods agains. ;-)

Can anyone more knowledgeable in this area offer suggestions?

I have a '06 Jetta TDI/5spd (195K) and looking to get some suggestions for a sportier handling suspension ie: less body roll. Others drive my car occasionally so I don't want to make it a handling nightmare.

I have just (recently) installed a Passat RSB (21.7 x 3.6), a set of Koni STR-T, GLI front/rear brakes, and 235/45/17. I would have liked to go with some springs but, most aftermarket springs I see lower the car....probably more than I am comfortable with.....no skid plate and plenty of road hazards (truck tire chunks, firewood, ice chunks...etc). I was looking for a set of TDI Cup car springs since those were for a Jetta TDI/manual trans (only about 3/4-1" drop)....and I wasn't sure how GLI springs would be on a TDI.

ACTUALLY, the front of the car is about right...height wise. The rear seems like it could come down an inch and look good...kind of has the nose down attitude. And I am sure if I did rear springs ONLY off of ?? I would completely upset the characteristics of the car? Also, I am thinking I could have gone a little bigger on the RSB or at least to a solid bar...while leaving the front alone....does that seem correct?

So, suggestions on sway bar(s). Anyone have any feedback on a particular setup? Springs, or at least addressing the rear? Any other advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

(Yes, I cut this from my post in "Upgrades"..as there was no action there and this seemed like the more "correct" place..?)

You really in Conway? My son lives in Montague, his gf is from Conway.

Regarding your car, I don't know how much of bump in size the Passat RSB is over stock, you may want to go with a firmer one. And rear springs are a challenge as they have to accommodate a wide variation in load. You could go with GLI springs but if the condition of my son's TDI's belly pan is any indication, lower is not a good idea.

I'd shop for a larger rear bar (26 or 28mm) and leave the rest of the setup alone. If the larger bar makes the car too prone to spinning in the snow then you could put on a larger front bar. But I'd try to avoid that. My '02 wagon with a Shine rear bar (very stiff) is fine in the snow as long as I have good snow tires on it. With all seasons it want's to spin.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

You really in Conway? My son lives in Montague, his gf is from Conway.

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Yes, Conway for 4 years so far......Wow, small world (sometimes). Night Kitchen (Montague) I've been to once....want to go back for a second venture.

Seems like very good advice with the larger rear bar. I believe my rear bar was a 18, 19, 20mm (unsure of wall thickness) depending on option (I never did look at the part #) so I can't confirm. Either way, it (the Passat RSB---22.7/3.6) doesn't seem to be enough of an upgrade to warrant any appreciable improvement (so maybe my bar was 20mm?). I will consider upping the RSB dia. and probably a solid bar at that. I know there is a formula to use when comparing roll stiffness between hollow bars vs. solid bars.

And yes, lowering I was not to interested in going that route.....running skid plateless....

Aftermarket bars are 24, 26, and I think someone has a 28mm. I've looked at them for my Golf (same rear suspension) and had decided a 26mm is the way to go. Some are adjustable, so that would allow you to fine tune it and perhaps dial it back in winter.

My son lives across the river from the Book Mill. If you see a not pristine 2-door Golf there with a Grateful Dead/VW sticker on the hatch, that's him.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Aftermarket bars are 24, 26, and I think someone has a 28mm. I've looked at them for my Golf (same rear suspension) and had decided a 26mm is the way to go. Some are adjustable, so that would allow you to fine tune it and perhaps dial it back in winter.

My son lives across the river from the Book Mill. If you see a not pristine 2-door Golf there with a Grateful Dead/VW sticker on the hatch, that's him.

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HaHa...yes the book mill is in the same structure(?) as the Night Kitchen...been a couple years since being there. Book Mill is an interesting place. I'll have to put that on my growing bucket list....A list that I plan to attack next week.....

26MM solid and adj. sounds like a good plan. I actually haven't seen any....or considered a 28mm thinking it'd make the rear too loose (stiff). I too run dedicated snows in the winter so hopefully, even adjusted down, the rear won't be too loose.

This is a great thread. Thank you very much for the informative posts.

I decided to put 225's on my car (Continental DWS Ultra High Performance All-Season) and that alone has made a huge difference. I went ahead and put ECS Tuning FSB and on the car. Nothing else has been changed in the suspension setup. The car is tighter, has less roll and I haven't had a front or rear end swing out on me in hard cornering.

I was chewing on putting coilovers on the car to lower it slightly (1"front and rear) but after reading this thread I may hold off on that. I think the next thing up will going to be some frame braces to see how that affects the steering and grip. Unibrace makes some for the MK6 TDI.

With my '06 Jetta TDI (now sold), with otherwise-stock suspension, I found that an Eibach 23mm rear antiroll bar had to be set on "soft" in order to avoid being a bit on the tail-happy side. I think 26+mm rear antiroll bars would be too stiff (Note: Mk6 Golf has same rear suspension assembly as Mk5 Jetta but the calibration is probably different).

If you have different springs or dampers, or if you've changed the front antiroll bar, it is likely going to be a different story. With the stiffer rear bar only, ride quality was virtually indistinguishable from stock.

I have a H&R 24mm RSB set on firm with Koni coilovers(set firm), 034 Motorsport front strut mounts, 17x8 wheels with 245-45 Continental DW tires, no oversteer at all. Next up is a Unibrace XB and I'm also debating the UB.

I just read this whole thread, it's too bad that Celidh and Peter suddenly left in the middle of it. The one major thing that would help me out would be if someone happened to save the .gif's and other diagrams that are missing from their posts. If someone has these saved and can upload them to the site, or another host site that will be around long term, I will buy you a beer when we meet. It is a shame that they are no longer linked in with the text descriptions. Thanks in advance.

GoFaster said:

With my '06 Jetta TDI (now sold), with otherwise-stock suspension, I found that an Eibach 23mm rear antiroll bar had to be set on "soft" in order to avoid being a bit on the tail-happy side. I think 26+mm rear antiroll bars would be too stiff (Note: Mk6 Golf has same rear suspension assembly as Mk5 Jetta but the calibration is probably different).

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I haven't done anything yet, but was thinking about a Whiteline 24mm RSB only. Indigo suggested/used a 26mm RSB but maybe the wagon makes that difference.....meaning it will 'absorb' a larger RSB before mismatch happens.

I just installed the Koni FSD Shine Racing Complete suspension kit from Kermatdi. For now, I haven't put the rear sway bar in, and have the front one disconnected.

I have only taken it out for a few drives so far.
First impressions:
WOW, feels great.
Car sits level.
Ride height nearly an inch taller than before.
Rear springs stay seated when jacked off the ground.
Not too harsh (AT ALL) on bumpy rutted gravel roads. Sucks up the big hits and not harsh with small bumps. I have another car set up for autox with stiff coilovers that will just squirm, yaw and try to remove your fillings at the same speed, on the same road.

Plenty of roll left in the suspension but it's now linear and controllable with no fsb, WAY less than stock. The stock suspension with fsb connected felt like the car wanted to do a barrel roll if I did an emergency lane change.

I read a post that described this setup like a sporty Cadillac, that is spot on. Soft and compliant when just driving along, but firm enough to take a set and support the car when you turn hard.

I will definitely be hooking up the fsb. Not convinced I want the rear one at this point, but will end up installing it to see the difference.

Way less brake dive.

Cheap way to totally transform the handling of your car.

Rear bar is the most important part of the kit, makes the biggest difference. Don't overlook it. And I don't think the Shine Real Street springs are strong enough to go without the front bar, especially with no rear bar.

For a DD, I think adding only stiffer front Sway Bars (or a matched set) are a decent option. They give the car a sportier feel under normal highway conditions and canyon driving. When you push past 8/10's of the cars grip level then the car will become an understeering plow monster, which is good for most drivers and is why all new cars understeer from the factory.
For track driving than I agree, the rear sway bar is epically important. The addition of a stiff rear sway bar will decrease traction to the rear and allow your trunk to get around corners in a hurry.

"Understeer is when you see the tree you are about to hit, if you only heard and felt the tree then it was oversteer.” -Walter Röhrl

GoFaster said:

With my '06 Jetta TDI (now sold), with otherwise-stock suspension, I found that an Eibach 23mm rear antiroll bar had to be set on "soft" in order to avoid being a bit on the tail-happy side. I think 26+mm rear antiroll bars would be too stiff (Note: Mk6 Golf has same rear suspension assembly as Mk5 Jetta but the calibration is probably different).

If you have different springs or dampers, or if you've changed the front antiroll bar, it is likely going to be a different story. With the stiffer rear bar only, ride quality was virtually indistinguishable from stock.

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IIRC, that 26mm RSB was a hollow one, so most likely not having as much torsional resistance as a solid RSB.....depending on wall thickness of the tube?

I haven't done anything as of yet......it's still just a blip on my radar.