The age of engine downsizing is over, says Volkswagen

Mcgink

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I-Red,"The Passat formerly known as Harlequin" 97 B4, a non VW GTDI too
I've driven the 2.7 ecoboost in an AWD MKX and those twin turbos turned that sled into a rocket. I averaged 22 MPG in the 2 tanks I drove it.
My 2.0 ecoboost AWD sedan averages about 26 MPG but I can get 30 on a road trip. It's got plenty of get up and go but no where close to the 2.7
 
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speedrye

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Intake valve clogging ... Varies all over the map. Some engines have had big problems, others have not. In the cases of big problems, some drivers have it happen and others don't, so it probably depends on driving patterns as well.

I've opted to stay away from this until it's figured out.
I've heard about issues with carbon fouling on valves with these newer DIT engines, but my bigger issue is with the HPFP and the numerous issues in most vehicles running them. The HPFP is the bigger reason I've opted to go back to a naturally-aspirated, large-displacement engine. Having had ~6 HPFP cars in the past 10 years, there were too many common issues for me to trust the technology to get me from point A to point B reliably, especially now that I've got a kid. I'm willing to take the hit on fuel mileage in trade for longevity, reliability and cost of repair if anything ever goes wrong.

Random side note: I racked up hundreds of thousands of miles on 1997-2000 Chevy 3500 vans with the Duramax. Averaged just under 30mpg towing an 8,000 lb trailer with fully-equipped cargo racks and tools inside the vans. On the rare trips without a trailer, mpg was usually close to 25. They were the opposite of these new small-displacement turbo cars. Obviously designed to be loaded up and driven, but not very efficient with minimal load. Loved those vans.
 
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kjclow

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Charlotte, NC
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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
"The Nano V6 seems pretty frugal, that is what my Dad bought. It is peppy to drive unloaded, and has good punch to get up to speed when you need it. It is surprisingly quick for its size. It can get into the mid 20s MPGs with light load and moderate speeds. His is a supercab, short bed, 4WD."

That's better fuel economy than my 3.4L V6 2002 4WD extended cab manual transmission Tacoma.

Don
It's about the same mileage I get with my 07 Canyon with the 2.8l and 5 speed manual.
 

evantful

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2013 JSW TDI, 2016 Golf SE TSI
I can understand from an emissions stand point that the extremely small engines are designed to the test. But as an end user I absolutely love the flexibility.

It gives you a lot of control over what kind of experience you want.
-Keep the engine from spooling up the turbo and keep boost down and get excellent fuel economy.
-Want a fun ripping drive, nail the throttle

I switched over to a 1.8TSI Golf SE after my buyback and I can't tell you enough on how impressed I am with this engine. I have just under 11k now on it, and its really breaking in nice.

This was the result of a 100 mile trip from Montgomery, NY to Troy, NY door to door, Mostly highway at 65mph with a detour mid way up to stop at a bank and get lunch. This was with 16" Snow Tires on in 70 degree weather.

 
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donDavide

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I can understand from an emissions stand point that the extremely small engines are designed to the test. But as an end user I absolutely love the flexibility.

It gives you a lot of control over what kind of experience you want.
-Keep the engine from spooling up the turbo and keep boost down and get excellent fuel economy.
-Want a fun ripping drive, nail the throttle

I switched over to a 1.8TSI Golf SE after my buyback and I can't tell you enough on how impressed I am with this engine. I have just under 11k now on it, and its really breaking in nice.

This was the result of a 100 mile trip from Montgomery, NY to Troy, NY door to door, Mostly highway at 65mph with a detour mid way up to stop at a bank and get lunch. This was with 16" Snow Tires on in 70 degree weather.

I wouldn't consider the 1.8TSI a small engine, especially for the Golf.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
No, not very small at all... and not really anything special. The only thing (I think) that avails these new 1.8L turbo engines increased efficiency over the old 1.8L turbo engines is largely the gearing in the transmission. Because the engine itself certainly is not a quantum leap forward. Peak horsepower is the same at 170 as most of the second gen 1.8L turbo engines, and the peak torque is a little bit better at 184 vs. 177, and the range in which these occur is probably better on the newer engines. But the gearing of the older ones is downright abysmal for fuel economy, and it isn't exactly like the older engines could not handle the higher gearing. I'd bet if you bolted a 6sp manual with similar long legged gearing in an AWP A4 Golf you'd see MPG in the 40s too. And I'd bet my farm it'll still do it 250k miles later, too.
 

LRTDI

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RIP 16 GSW... Just the LR diesel now
Having driven a three cylinder Octavia, it was ok, albeit needed that very short first gear and a good bit of rowing when loaded.

Ford has just introduced a new three cylinder engine with three cylinders and a turbo replacing the previous four cylinder. Fewer parts. Add a cylinder for an additional 500cc. Sounds like a laundry detergent weekly deal.....
 
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evantful

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Montgomery, NY
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2013 JSW TDI, 2016 Golf SE TSI
No, not very small at all... and not really anything special.
Yeah you're right, definitely not the smallest thing compared to the 3cyl 1L out there.

But Im still impressed with the fuel economy. Mind you my numbers are in a SE, which only comes with a Aisin 09G Auto, no 5 speed manual option with the SE with a really tall 5th or 6th gear like in other VW Manuals.

This is also along with a decades worth of added safety reinforcement and advancement, while being dimensionally larger than the Mk4 in virtually every way.

The final piece is that, as stated above, Im still running snow tires on a day that it was 70 degrees, as seen on the display. So with a 6MT and all season tires I would certainly expect to get even higher than what I did.

To be fair on the return trip I averaged 42.8.
 
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tikal

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Southeast Texas
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2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
How would this 1.8TSI Golf SE average MPG be loaded once in a while?

If you look up the 2016 + 2017 Golf with the 1.8L engine in Fuelly.com you get an average of around 28 MPG with a little bit over 400K miles of combined real life driving.


Correct?
 

evantful

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Montgomery, NY
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2013 JSW TDI, 2016 Golf SE TSI
How would this 1.8TSI Golf SE average MPG be loaded once in a while?

If you look up the 2016 + 2017 Golf with the 1.8L engine in Fuelly.com you get an average of around 28 MPG with a little bit over 400K miles of combined real life driving.


Correct?
Just need to clarify what you mean by loaded? Loaded as in the car being loaded up with cargo or passengers (i.e. extra weight) or loaded like the number itself (44mpg) is computer BS?

If its the latter, then yes, the built in MPG reading is about 1mpg-1.5mpg high. Thats been the case pretty much on every VW I have owned vs my hand calculations.

Mind you Im coming from the TDI and I bought my TDI, as did many, because we are highway warriors that do a lot of mileage. My numbers will certainly outpace a fuelly average because I would suspect the vast majority of 1.8tsi owners don't do the same city/highway break down as an average TDI owner. My overall average is 38.1 and has been climbing steadily from the mid 36's
 
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tikal

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2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
evantful, I was referring to physically loaded.

Even assuming 50/50 city/highway and somewhat loaded I am somewhat disappointed with the Golf 1.8L average MPG. On the other hand looking at the Mazda 3 hatchback for the same years gives about 10% better average MPG at 31.
 

evantful

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tikal,

I can say we took 4 trips last late summer and early fall to the Adirondack mountains, about a 200-250mile trip one way , to camp in my girl friends 2015 Golf SEL 1.8tsi with 18" VW Preston wheels

I was pretty bummed about giving up the JSW and was seeing some really good deals on the Golf (where as the GSW was selling at less of a discount, with fewer trims left), but I was concerned about the lack of cargo capacity. So I used her Golf to do extended test drives if you will.

Our load was two of us (165 pounds for me, 120 pounds for her), small dog and a good deal of camping gear (seats folded flat, gear filled to half way of the window line).

Overall we averaged 37.7 for the entire trip driving, to and from the mountains and all driving in the mountains (about 650 miles total) on the one that I specifically recorded the data, hand calculated. The others were roughly about the same
 
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tikal

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Thanks evantful. Keep us posted as you add up more miles, including city ones, to get a better all around average.
 

NSTDI

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tikal,

I can say we took 4 trips last late summer and early fall to the Adirondack mountains, about a 200-250mile trip one way , to camp in my girl friends 2015 Golf SEL 1.8tsi with 18" VW Preston wheels

I was pretty bummed about giving up the JSW and was seeing some really good deals on the Golf (where as the GSW was selling at less of a discount, with fewer trims left), but I was concerned about the lack of cargo capacity. So I used her Golf to do extended test drives if you will.

Our load was two of us (165 pounds for me, 120 pounds for her), small dog and a good deal of camping gear (seats folded flat, gear filled to half way of the window line).

Overall we averaged 37.7 for the entire trip driving, to and from the mountains and all driving in the mountains (about 650 miles total) on the one that I specifically recorded the data, hand calculated. The others were roughly about the same
What speed?
 

PlaneCrazy

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Province of Quebec, Canada
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Gone...
Same engine, 5-speed manual, summer, 100 km/h limit, 300 km drive:



The car wasn't even broken in, that drive was done when it was 3 days old.

More realistically, that number is really 5.6 factoring in the MFD error. Still a respectable 42 mpg.

In normal driving I average about 6.0 in summer, 6.4-7.0 in winter.

I think there's more to it than just the transmission and gear ratios. For starters, the old 1.8T wasn't direct injection, whereas the new one is.

Regardless of how it's achieved, I'd have to say that the fuel efficiency has made the higher purchase cost, higher potential maintenance/fail costs and lower average fuel costs, a wash compared to a TDI. Add to that more smoothness, quieter and quicker than my previous Mk VI, and even more so that my wife's Mk V Golf TDI wagon.

Her wagon is on borrowed time now, her new buyback replacement TSI wagon is due at the end of the month.
 

donDavide

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2003 Jetta ;2006 Golf; 2015 Jetta S
My Wife has a 2005 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8T, when we got it last summer, I remember being dusted by a Beetle 1.8 tsi convertible with 4 Adults in it.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
The "old" 1.8t engine was not direct injected, no, but it did have an extra intake valve as well as a cam drive that seems to hold up better and a MUCH simpler and more durable water pump. Unless they have REALLY improved some things, I do not have a warm fuzzy feeling about the long term durability of this "new" engine that is largely based on the 2.0L DI turbo engine that we've had since 2008... and that thing is a turd. Runs great, but the problems those engines have are numerous, common, and expensive.

I know they did improve the timing chain tensioner around 2011, and I assume they made some improvements to the intake manifold position sensor that failed so often they ended up giving them a 120k mile warranty extension. And I know they improved the camshaft and HPFP follower that were commonly found to go bad. They also went to a cartridge style oil filter, changed the ignition coils (although they may not "fail", they melt themselves into the valve cover so when they do need to come out they come out in pieces anyway).

The crankcase pressure regulator, a constant problem before, has been changed, and this was responsible for countless blown out rear main seals.

Remains to be seen if the rando-crack water pump housings have been fixed, or the prematurely worn out turbo wastegate linkage has been improved. Not a fan of the plastic oil pan and what feels like a really cheap drain plug arrangement, but that at least allowed them another half liter of oil capacity.

We'll see in a couple years. :eek:
 

tikal

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Southeast Texas
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2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Diesel efficiency still ahead of non-hybrid gasoline engines

For 2015 year for these three hatchbacks:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - Fuelly miles - - - Fuelly Average MPG
2015 Golf TSI - - - - 1,000,000 - - - - 29.8
2015 Golf TDI - - - - 5,180,000 - - - - 41.7
2015 Mazada 3 - - - 1,000,000 - - - - -32.1

Cost of ownership is, of course, very complex and also subjective.
 

LRTDI

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RIP 16 GSW... Just the LR diesel now
My first new car in the US was a 87 Nova. 1.6 carb, Corolla in disguise. 25mpg from 72bhp on a good day. Wife's newest car Volvo Xc60 3.0T 300hp and 25mpg on the highway.
 

donDavide

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2003 Jetta ;2006 Golf; 2015 Jetta S
2.0 T definitely sucks. Both FSI and TSI. Rear main seal issues on high mileage, carbon build up on injectors too.
 
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tikal

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oilhammer (and others), how is the Mazda Skyactiv gasoline engine is doing reliability wise so far?
 

gulfcoastguy

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oilhammer (and others), how is the Mazda Skyactiv gasoline engine is doing reliability wise so far?
Yes a potential customer asking here. Also is there a difference between the 2.0 and 2.5l engines. Any other problems with the Mazda 3 besides rust as we don't salt the roads here.
 

dubStrom

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22-25 mpg I6 versus 40+ mpg 1.9L TDI

In the 70's I had a Nova 2 door with an inline 6 cylinder (230CI). I think it was a '67 model, with a 3 on the tree that I replaced with a Hurst floor shifter, mostly for the convenience of a floor shifter and smooth action.

This car ran and ran, always getting over 20mpg without trying. The simplicity of the engine helped it's longevity. It was terrible in the snow, but otherwise very dependable.

Compared to today's high tech engines, it was primitive, but that is probably why it was so dependable! It made about 140hp.

Compared to an ALH engine, it used twice as much fuel, and didn't produce any more power. And as dependable as it was, the durability of the ALH is hard to beat. I have the TSI engine in my 2017 Passat. It pulls nicely when you need it, but at a cost, getting about 30 mpg. That's fully 25% less miles on the same amount of fuel than a TDI-and diesel always hover 5 to10% more expensive around here. So my wrecked JSW had an average of less than 10 cents a mile (fuelly average at 40k miles).

The 1.4L TDI sold in Europe for years is a respectable powerplant that gets even better FE than the 1.9/2.0L TDIs. You might not want it in a larger car, but it is adequate for small sedans and hatchbacks. Sad that the only 1.4L engine we can buy from VW is a gasser.
 
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nokivasara

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My first new car in the US was a 87 Nova. 1.6 carb, Corolla in disguise. 25mpg from 72bhp on a good day. Wife's newest car Volvo Xc60 3.0T 300hp and 25mpg on the highway.
Hey, I have a 1987 Corolla :D
No power windows, no central locking, no power steering, no air con...
Feels like it's getting more than 25mpg, maybe about 32-33?? Haven't done the math though.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
Hey, I have a 1987 Corolla :D
No power windows, no central locking, no power steering, no air con...
Feels like it's getting more than 25mpg, maybe about 32-33?? Haven't done the math though.

Your Corolla is/was not the same as ours, and technically the "Nova" of that vintage was a Toyota Sprinter, not a Corolla. But they are mechanically the same as the standard Corolla sedan we got at the time, same 4A-F engine, etc.
 

nokivasara

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Your Corolla is/was not the same as ours, and technically the "Nova" of that vintage was a Toyota Sprinter, not a Corolla. But they are mechanically the same as the standard Corolla sedan we got at the time, same 4A-F engine, etc.
Ok, close enough. Mine is a 4 door sedan.
I have a 4a-lc, or perhaps 4a-c. A sohc 8-valver.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
Ok, close enough. Mine is a 4 door sedan.
I have a 4a-lc, or perhaps 4a-c. A sohc 8-valver.

Yep, yours will have higher compression, less emissions control garbage saddled to its carburetor, higher output, and would use less fuel. Pretty typical of the '80s era for US bound cars. We usually got the largest displacement, lowest output, thirstiest version. But ours were "cleaner" :rolleyes:

Some of our Corollas did get the optional 4A-GE engine, which was the twin-cam EFI engine (like our first gen MR2s got), but those are pretty rare. We also got the Corolla FX, which was the hatchback version, and the FX16 was Toyota's "GTI" version of the Corolla, but much tamer than the car it attempted to copy. Of course, even our GTIs got pussified by European standards. :(
 
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