BRM Suffers Catastrophic Engine Failure

dschein

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Location
Reading, Pennsylvania
TDI
None
Day 1

While driving on the PA TurnPike (cruise control on - speed set at 72) the car just lost power. No noises, nothing odd, all electronics were still on, the engine simply shut off. I coasted to the side of the road and tried to restart the engine, it turned over but wouldn't start. Sounded like after you change the fuel filter and there's no fuel in the lines. So I called for the hook (bed?) to pick it up and drop it off at the VW dealer for diagnostics.

At the end of the day the dealer called to inform me that I needed a new engine. They had found pieces of aluminum in the oil pan and the engine wouldn't turn over.

Day 2

After sleeping off the shock of being told I need a new engine, the next morning I stopped at the dealer. The car was on the lift with the oil pan removed. They had removed the oil pan because when they decided to do a compression check the engine stopped rotating and now only turned part way before it stopped.

I took a trip to the shop with my service advisor and was able to see the small pieces of aluminum about the size of a pencil eraser in the oil pan. In addition he placed a wrench on the crank and I watched as the engine partially rotated before stopping. Finally he showed me the glow plug from cylinder #3, the tip was missing.

With only 57,xxx miles on the engine it was (just) within the 60,000 mile warranty so a case was opened with VW America for a warranty replacement. The engine was scheduled to ship the following week with the exchange scheduled for two weeks out. Since the engine and transmission needed to be removed I ordered a 3rd party clutch kit to be installed during the swap.

Day 13

On my way to work I dropped off the new clutch kit because work hadn't started yet and the car was sitting outside.

Day 14

On my way to work I decided to stop and see how far they had gotten. The first thing my service rep told me after walking in was "I was going to call you this morning. I have some bad news". You can imagine all kind of thoughts were going through my head. But after being told I need a new engine I figured how bad could it get?

It turned out that while the dealer was towing the car into the shop to begin the engine exchange they hit a parked car with my car.

Day 15

Again I stopped at the dealers to check the progress along my way to work. The old engine was out and work hadn't begun yet to move parts onto the new engine.

Day 16

Of course I had to stop at the dealers on my way to work and see how things were going.
The new engine was on a stand with all the components from the old one switched over.

The VW rep had been in the shop the day before and they decided to remove the head.

VW is honoring the warranty claim and feels the failure was caused by a stuck injector that hydro locked the engine.

Day 20

Stopped at the dealers (again), this time to disassemble the old head in an effort to find the root cause of this failure. My initial hunch was that a valve dropped, but as the following photos show there was no evidence of that. The lifter wasn't damaged or collapsed, the valve shaft was still in place as were the retainers. The root cause doesn't seem to have been something in the head. A few things I noticed, each of the fuel injector lobes had begun to develop a grove in them just before the top of the lobe. Each of the exhaust lobes were developing an 'odd' wear pattern on them. Almost as if the lifter was wearing the cam.

Day 22

After 2 trips to the body shop (paint was cloudy) my service rep informed me the car was back but didn't seem to drive right. He felt the turbo wasn't making boost until almost at red line but the car ran fine in the other gears. They are going to run some tests and will update me later.

Day 24


The dealer was unable to find any problems and would like me to stop in and drive it.

Day 27

I stopped and drove my car. To my disappointment the rep was right, the turbo isn't making boost until almost red line and the car is a DOG.

Day 30

The dealer has been unable to find anything and is contacting VW for help. Something new, in addition to being down on power it throws black smoke out the tailpipe. I pointed the service rep to all the 'low power, black smoke' threads on TDIClub (hey it can't hurt).

Day 34

The dealer called and told me they have been working with VW but are still unable to locate the problem. They have tried a new EGR valve, Air Flow Sensor and Air Intake valve. Cleaned the intercooler (looking for blockage). Tested the turbo, wastegate and ran a lot more tests. Everything checks good....

At this rate my loaner car will be due for service before I get mine back.


Day 36

My service adviser called to tell me that although none of the turbo tests failed, the VW regional rep has authorized a new turbo. The rep feels this will resolve the smoke & lack of power issues. I won't complain about a new turbo and have my fingers crossed this fixes it.

Day 38

My service adviser was on vacation, but another called to tell me that the new turbo fixed the problem! They asked to keep it another day to 'button things up' and run some final tests.

Day 41

Took my loaner in today and picked up my car. The dog / boost issues are gone and it runs great. The invoice is 3 pages long but I haven't had chance to review the part numbers yet. Look for a scanned copy (pdf) soon. I leave for vacation tomorrow (day 1).


This page last updated 9-August-2010

IMPORTANT: This information was copied from my website. For photos go to my engine failure page.
 
Last edited:

Dimitri16V

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Location
DE
TDI
01 Golf, 04 Golf
is that a big gouge on the injector lobe ? check the lifter next to it..
the lifter wore through and the valve dropped taking the cylinder/piston with it. It looks like the cam failure destroyed the engine but pics of the lifter are needed to tell for sure

who is the dealer ?
 

hid3

Banned
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Location
Lithuania, Vilnius
TDI
Golf V 1.9 TDI-PD 105 HP
That's why VW says on the sticer: 'Failure to use 505.01 may result in serious personal injury while on highway', something like that. And you all use non-505.01...
 

dschein

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Location
Reading, Pennsylvania
TDI
None
Dimitri16V: I'm not certain how much the dealer will let me disassemble, but I'll be certain to look at everything I can as close as I can.

hid3: I do all my own maintenance and do it at approx 1/2 of the VW recommended mileage. That's why at 57K I've already replaced the timing belt, water pump, etc. For a warranty claim the dealer required me to provide receipts for filter and oil to prove the proper items were used. So your comment "And you all use non-505.01" simply doesn't apply here.
 

Dimitri16V

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Location
DE
TDI
01 Golf, 04 Golf
That's why VW says on the sticer: 'Failure to use 505.01 may result in serious personal injury while on highway', something like that. And you all use non-505.01...
i know, shame on us ...:rolleyes:
 

A5INKY

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Location
Louisville, KY
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI, 2002 Eurovan Westphalia VR6
Too bad that special 505.01 oil changed at VW recommended intervals doesn't keep our cams from dying prematurely. I changed the 505.01 religiously, cam still died, now it is TDT +ZDDP for me. Can't be any worse...
 

SBAtdijetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Houston, TX
TDI
'10 Jetta Cup 6spd, '02 Jetta Auto
I'd like to see some high res macro pictures of the cam if you can get them! I'd tend to agree with Dimitri16V right off here.

Good luck with your ordeal! Glad you are under 60k!!! I wonder why VW reduced their warranty period to 36k...:rolleyes::(
 

Driver_found

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2005
Location
Phila
TDI
Former MKV Jetta TDI 5M, Former 2013 Passat TDI SE 6M, 2015 Mazda 6 Touring 6m
What bothers me is the concept of the durable diesel engine that is supposed to outlast its inferior gas counterparts. Yet I am seeing over 200k miles on Hondas, Mazdas, older Audi 5 cylinders, and even some Fords, using gasoline engines. Without serious problems.

While the TDI's that are newer than the AHL engines, seem to have some serious design issues that beg to question - why pay the extra for the TDI if it will likely fail and cost you extra money prematurely? Fun factor and MPG excluded.

I'm just saying.
 

Dimitri16V

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Location
DE
TDI
01 Golf, 04 Golf
What bothers me is the concept of the durable diesel engine that is supposed to outlast its inferior gas counterparts. Yet I am seeing over 200k miles on Hondas, Mazdas, older Audi 5 cylinders, and even some Fords, using gasoline engines. Without serious problems.

While the TDI's that are newer than the AHL engines, seem to have some serious design issues that beg to question - why pay the extra for the TDI if it will likely fail and cost you extra money prematurely? Fun factor and MPG excluded.

I'm just saying.
the concept of using sub suppliers to built anything only works when quality controls are vigorously enforced.
 

TwoTone

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Location
DMV
TDI
05.5 Jetta (sold)
That's why VW says on the sticer: 'Failure to use 505.01 may result in serious personal injury while on highway', something like that. And you all use non-505.01...
What does that have to do with anything in this thread? Where does the OP state that he is not using 505.01 oil?
 

hid3

Banned
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Location
Lithuania, Vilnius
TDI
Golf V 1.9 TDI-PD 105 HP
Too bad that special 505.01 oil changed at VW recommended intervals doesn't keep our cams from dying prematurely. I changed the 505.01 religiously, cam still died, now it is TDT +ZDDP for me. Can't be any worse...
If your cam wouldn't have failed, VW wouldn't have received some additional profit! Next time use 505.01 too :D
 

hid3

Banned
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Location
Lithuania, Vilnius
TDI
Golf V 1.9 TDI-PD 105 HP
What does that have to do with anything in this thread? Where does the OP state that he is not using 505.01 oil?
The matter is that the failure can happen on highway. Engine can stall and you will lose control of your car which might result in a serious accident.

If expertsrealise that it was VW/engine fault (and you maintained it correctly) then they're fully responsible for it. But if you didn't keep with the manufacturer's requirements, then everything is up to you since you didn't observe them.

This thread has nothing to do with 505.01. The fact I wanted to say is that now I understand why they print that warning about 505.01 under the hood in such interesting words!

As for the failures, I need to see at least any PD around here which uses anything but VW approved oil. Yet the failure rate on this side of the ocean isn't that catastrophic as there in NA.... :confused:
 

Dimitri16V

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Location
DE
TDI
01 Golf, 04 Golf
This thread has nothing to do with 505.01. The fact I wanted to say is that now I understand why they print that warning about 505.01 under the hood in such interesting words!
because a testbed PD probably died the same death in the autobahn
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
This is just another wild guess as to what could have happened.

If you heard no sounds of all the damage in the cylinder, and it would turn over without any problem; but would not start. It may have been a fuel problem.

At the dealership they removed glow plugs for a compression test. Broke off a glow plug tip. The tip stuck in the piston causing little to no damage, but after starting and on the test drive, that glow plug tip came unstuck and broke the valve off and destroyed everything.

It could have happened that the keeper came off. I would think a lobe worn that bad would have given some missing symptoms before self destruct, but maybe not.

Good reason to take the valve cover off every now and then to track PD cam health. Or better yet replace cam bearings to stop cam wear. IMHO

eddif
 

theinternot

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Location
So Cal
TDI
2012 Passat TDI SE
Thanks for posting this.

Sorry you have had such a bad time with it.

But, those pics you posted are a great reference for anyone who wants to get a close look at where things are around the engine. I will be bookmarking your site for this.
 

Dimitri16V

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Location
DE
TDI
01 Golf, 04 Golf
This is just another wild guess as to what could have happened.

If you heard no sounds of all the damage in the cylinder, and it would turn over without any problem; but would not start. It may have been a fuel problem.

At the dealership they removed glow plugs for a compression test. Broke off a glow plug tip. The tip stuck in the piston causing little to no damage, but after starting and on the test drive, that glow plug tip came unstuck and broke the valve off and destroyed everything.

It could have happened that the keeper came off. I would think a lobe worn that bad would have given some missing symptoms before self destruct, but maybe not.

Good reason to take the valve cover off every now and then to track PD cam health. Or better yet replace cam bearings to stop cam wear. IMHO

eddif
eddif

the lifter wore through , got cocked in its bore and wore the injector lobe.
the disintegrating lifter wore the keeper or valve stem, valve dropped , engine goes kaboom. valve bouncing in the cylinder breaks glow plug tip before the rod /piston give up miliseconds later.
we have witnessed this failure before

lets hope the owner can get us some pics of lifter #3
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
eddif

the lifter wore through , got cocked in its bore and wore the injector lobe.
the disintegrating lifter wore the keeper or valve stem, valve dropped , engine goes kaboom. valve bouncing in the cylinder breaks glow plug tip before the rod /piston give up miliseconds later.
we have witnessed this failure before

lets hope the owner can get us some pics of lifter #3
I did say it could have been your story, of the keeper coming off. I was not trying to win some sort of contest. There were also some similar problems caused by the cancelled glow plug recall.

I agree the injector lobe wear points to existing lobe wear.

eddif
 

A5INKY

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Location
Louisville, KY
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI, 2002 Eurovan Westphalia VR6
I don't think it possible that a broken glow plug tip could have snapped off the valve head like that. If I were the OP I would demand to see the cam follower corresponding to the broken valve. When I recently changed my cam the #4 exhaust follower was nearly worn through to the point of having a serious dish to it. It was a ticking time bomb and I got lucky it didn't go off.

How many of these failures are occurring out of warranty period that VW is pretending like nothing is wrong? (don't answer that, rhetorical question):rolleyes:
 

dschein

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Location
Reading, Pennsylvania
TDI
None
Day 20

Stopped at the dealers (again), this time to disassemble the old head in an effort to find the root cause of this failure. My initial hunch was that a valve dropped, but as the following photos show there was no evidence of that. The lifter wasn't damaged or collapsed, the valve shaft was still in place as were the retainers. The root cause doesn't seem to have been something in the head. A few things I noticed, each of the fuel injector lobes had begun to develop a grove in them just before the top of the lobe. Each of the exhaust lobes were developing an 'odd' wear pattern on them. Almost as if the lifter was wearing the cam.

My web site has been updated with this information and the photos of today's visit to the dealer.
 
Last edited:

TwoTone

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Location
DMV
TDI
05.5 Jetta (sold)
The matter is that the failure can happen on highway. Engine can stall and you will lose control of your car which might result in a serious accident.

If expertsrealise that it was VW/engine fault (and you maintained it correctly) then they're fully responsible for it. But if you didn't keep with the manufacturer's requirements, then everything is up to you since you didn't observe them.

This thread has nothing to do with 505.01. The fact I wanted to say is that now I understand why they print that warning about 505.01 under the hood in such interesting words!

As for the failures, I need to see at least any PD around here which uses anything but VW approved oil. Yet the failure rate on this side of the ocean isn't that catastrophic as there in NA.... :confused:
It says it for the same reason there are warning labels on hedge trimmers not to use them to cut your hair.
 

hid3

Banned
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Location
Lithuania, Vilnius
TDI
Golf V 1.9 TDI-PD 105 HP
LOL. Are you sure you really were using proper oil?

It seems that cutting service intervals in a half did more wrong than good.
 

dschein

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Location
Reading, Pennsylvania
TDI
None
LOL. Are you sure you really were using proper oil?

It seems that cutting service intervals in a half did more wrong than good.
I ran Total Quartz INEO MC3 (Formerly elf Excellium DID 5W-40) and don't know if it was the oil or the engine but the wear seems excessive for the miles.

Either way I can't argue that my reduced maintenance schedule didn't help. Guess I need to start maintaining the fuel injectors and changing the cam bearings ever 50K if I want to hit 100,000 :( ........
 

xabjw4

Active member
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Location
Monterey, Virginia
TDI
2015 Golf SW S TDI
Sorry for your loss, its all very interesting. I can shed a bit of light on it (the oil), the best I can. I have a 2006 TDI with now, 100k on it. I am in insurance sales. I ran the factory Castrol 505.01 from first change until 40K miles (5K, 10k, 20k, 30k changes). I switched and used the Elf Excellium DID 5W-40 for the 40k-50k interval (about 2007) I was looking to go 15-20k as a test. I never made it to 50k and drained the Elf and went back to the Castrol at 44.8K. At 50k another Castrol and since 60K, I ran 5W-40 Euro Amsoil without issue including an 80K to 95K interval recently. What did I learn??? Regarding your situation, a lot. I worked at an oil anaysis lab and still get oil analysis from him for free. (Oil-Tec lab, Hibbing Minnesota). All my analysis results were excellent to outstanding during the life of my engine except one......... yes from 40k-44.8k when I did a draw and test I (we) were astonished !!! The supposed superior Elf oil returned a poor to damage result. This included very high Iron, Aluminum, Magnesium. Soot was at 295 and basically I (we) were concerned I had damage for sure. What to do??? Under warranty until 60K, I switched back to Castrol 505.01, new filter at 44.8k and kept driving. Next analysis at 48K looked much, much better and again at 55K with the 50k filter and oil change and I never looked back. The wear metals on that 4.8k miles were worse than the 10k-40k test results combined, big numbers that were from actual wear in the motor from that OIL, same stuff you been using. I think, as others have said, that is/was the your engine problem. What's with that Elf blend and why it happened is beyond me, PD engines and it may just not be a match. Stay 505.01 Castrol factory or the 505.01 German equivelent for your new motor. Call for more details, 218 969-4009 in Minnesota or e-mail xabjw4@excite.com. Those are the facts, no bull****. Jeff Baxter
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
It has been interesting to hear there seems to be one killer oil out there (a 5W-40 oil). A couple of us high heat area folks seem to have identified 5W-30 as a thing to avoid too (most any brand).

I wish to try and help some understand the wear marks on the injection lobes. Someone else has mentioned it befrore and I am just too lazy to look it up. I will try and describe it a little more involved than what I remember.

The diameter of the cam lobe is slightly larger than the injection lobe. As long as the contact area of the follower is basically flat the follower is pushed downward beneath the injection lobe by the valve lobe, and the follower can not come up high enough to touch the injection lobe.

Think of the worn follower as becoming a bowl. Allow the cam lobe to fit inside the the bowl (curved surface of the bowl receiving a flat lobe sitting in this bowl. When the follower is bowl shaped enough, the whole follower rises some as the center contact metal is worn away. The flat valve lobe is being rounded at the same time. The outer rim of the follower (where there is no real wear) rises also and rises enough that it can contact the injection lobe. The wear on the injection rocker lobe is where the rim of the follower side hits / pushes on the side of the injection lobe. Run long enough it may cause the follower to cock in the bore and break.

The flat cam lobe sitting in a curved bowl is where the strange valve lobe wear comes from. The cam lobe is worn into the shape of the bowl and the follower becomes a bowl, whick allows more rise of the follower (also both areas wear into the bowl / saucer shape)

Look, I am a jerk from Mississippi and may not master the English language well enough to suit some. If you will look at his link pictures (anyone want to use their account to post them here ?), I think the description will all fit together. The rim of the partially spinning follower bowl / saucer is causing the wear mark. The wear mark comes first then the possible cocking forces grow and can lead to possible fracture destruction. Sometimes the followers go through all this and never really cock in the bore or break apart.

It took me a long time to see all this. I sure know the rest of you already know about all this. I appologise for trying to help maybe one new person see what is going on.

eddif
 

Mach1

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Location
Spicewood, Tx.
TDI
05.5 Jetta 5 spd, 06 Jetta DE DSG, 04 F250 6L, 2000 F250 7.3L
Yep, I am waiting for my ELF CRV 506 0-30W oil to crater my BRM @113000 miles..In the Texas heat, was 102 yesterday...Did I mention 15000 OCI as well...Die BRM..Die!!!
 
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