Manual transmission being phased out, not efficient & slower

How'd this go from a tranny thread to an engine thread?

MrMopar, just out of curiousity, what kind of bike do you ride? Must be a 2-stroke, right, to not have to change the oil? I own 2 bikes, a 1979 Honda and a 2007 Suzuki, both have filters and require oil changes, both 4 strokes though so I guess that comes with the territory.

I'm with mxs on the whole motorcycle oil thing, I'd rather pay the premium for so called "special" motorcycle oil and know that it works than to go cheap and use "regular" oil to find out a few thousand miles later that it's ruined my tranny.

As for the manual vs auto tranny issue, I KNOW that I can't shift any faster than the DSG and I know that the 6M isn't any faster either but, as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to spirited driving it's not so much about driving fast, it's more about the actual driving experience and anyone who tells you that you can be just as connected or just as involved in the driving experience in an automatic (no matter what variety) as in a manual is lying to you right through their teeth. A couple of the morning radio guys here (some of you may have heard of them, Walton & Johnson) used to talk about the de-pussification of America and my opinion was that the first step should be to remove ALL automatics (again, any variety) from ALL sports cars, if you have no intentions of being 100% in control of the car you shouldn't be allowed to be in control of it at all, oh, and that goes for all the other electronic crap that come on them these days: traction control, launch control, etc., and that simply because sports cars are meant to be experienced and leaving all of these things up to a computer disconnects the driver that much more from the experience. Now, when it comes to regular cars I kind of feel the same, if you're going to be driving a "sporty" car and you want to drive it like a "sporty" car, get the manual. Don't get me wrong, automatics are fine.....if that's your style of driving and you don't intend to do the whole "boy racer" thing.

And as far as the weight of the clutch pedal.....in this car......what do we have here, a bunch of little girls? Ok, so that might be a little harsh seeing as I don't know what they feel like in the older TDIs but one of the reasons I decided on the 6M over the DSG was because the clutch is feather light. That was one of my concerns, the last manual tranny I had was a '91 300ZX. The clutch pedal in that car was so heavy that after about 20 minutes in stop & go traffic my left leg would be just about worn out, almost to a point of having to use the steering wheel for leverage. And the further down you pushed the pedal the heavier it got. This car, 2010 JSW, seems to have a "peak" in the travel of the pedal (which still isn't heavy) and once you get past that peak it lightens up again and holding the pedal to the floor can pretty much be taken care of by the weight of my foot. If it had been a heavy clutch I probably would've gotten the DSG because no, I will not be racing around the streets or tracks and no, I don't think its a fast car, I got the 6M in this car simply because I know how to drive a stick, the clutch pedal is light and it saved me $1100 dollars. I'm not saying that I won't take it out on a little joy ride every now and then but it wasn't bought to be a race car. I outgrew my Speed Racer phase some years ago and if I want to go fast I'll hop on either one of the previously mentioned motorcycles.

sk8rlee said:

MrMopar, just out of curiousity, what kind of bike do you ride? Must be a 2-stroke, right, to not have to change the oil? I own 2 bikes, a 1979 Honda and a 2007 Suzuki, both have filters and require oil changes, both 4 strokes though so I guess that comes with the territory.

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I have a 1975 Yamaha XS650B. It's a 4-stroke parallel twin. I have routed the crankcase breather hose through the chain cover so that it discharges a constant mist of oil onto the chain to provide constant chain lubrication. Given that engines of that time period (especially air-cooled engines) were built with somewhat loose tolerances, the engine both burns and vents a good amount of oil. Crankcase capacity is 2500cc, and the engine consumes about 500cc of oil for every tank of fuel burned. I simply top the oil off, and clean the oil filter screen every 1,000 miles. The oil never gets to be too dark of a black color, so I never change it and I let the top-off oil do the job of refreshing the anti-corrosion additive package.

sk8rlee said:

MrMopar, just out of curiousity, what kind of bike do you ride?

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Pics of my bike:

MrMopar said:

Pics of my bike:

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Nice!!! Good looking bike, I love the old "vintage" bikes. And great idea on the chain oiler, not something I would have thought of. Here's a pic of mine, a '79 CB750L.

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I love the old standard bikes. I used to have a CB350 project bike, but I had a lot to do back then and I sold it. For a bike you ride often, it's really nice to have those front disk brakes on the "newer" classic bikes. Those old drum brakes can be scary if you need to stop in a hurry!

There are lots of neat sequential transmission options here, everything from 4 speed 02J to 6 speed 02M. Neat stuff!

http://www.sqsracing.com/kategorie-produktu/23:competition-gear-dog-box-kit-racing-gearbox

mxs said:

If there was a cheaper motorcycle oil, would you use it in your car instead of a recommended car oil??

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If the oil meets the standards applicable, then YES I would use it in a car. But it doesn't, so that's somewhat of a disposable question.

Motorcycle oils for most bikes (with a wet clutch) specifically call for oils that are not energy conserving. They want that API starburst on the label to be lacking the energy conserving label, because those EC oils have additives that may be detrimental to the performance of a wet clutch.

In this manner, it is somewhat of a "one way street" when swapping oils. You can use SOME automobile oil in cycles if it meets specifications (NOT energy conserving). It wouldn't be the other way around because a lot of the oil for cycles does not meet the required car specifications.

In the case that I did find a cycle oil that meets car specifications, I wouldn't hesitate to use it in my car if it were cheaper. But that's a moot point, because all the synthetic cycle oils that are high quality go for something stupid like $8 a quart - I can just use Mobil 1 0w20 for about $5 a quart.

The people saying that the DSG shifts faster and the people saying it has an annoying lag are both right: the time between disengaging one clutch and engaging the other is indeed fast, but (in manual mode) the time between hitting the paddle shifter and the beginning of clutch disengagement is annoyingly slow. (That and the jerkiness in stop-and-go traffic is why I don't like the DSG.)

It is possible to have clutchless 'transmissions' that are more efficient than manual ones. However, neither CVTs, DSGs, or sequential manuals qualify. The only things that are genuinely more efficient are the planetary gearbox found in the Prius (which has no torque converters, clutches, or rubber bands whatsoever) and the direct drive (or single reducing gear) found in pure electric vehicles.

You can't have more than one gear ratio with a planetary system without brake bands.

SonyAD said:

You can't have more than one gear ratio with a planetary system without brake bands.

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The Prius works differently because of the motor/generator. See this HowStuffWorks.com page about it, which contains the following picture.



Note how there are not any brake bands.

No brake "bands" but a brake nevertheless. A brake force needs to be generated to alter the speed differential between ring, sun, and carrier.

Interesting. So it acts like a differential between the engine, electric motor and generator?

When I was little I kept scheming trying to figure out a way to use differentials for a CVT. Best I could come up with was a differential connecting the engine, the gearbox and a brake disk for controllable slip.

SonyAD said:

Interesting. So it acts like a differential between the engine, electric motor and generator?

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exactly, it always routes parts of the power through the electric system. So you always have generation losses, frequency drive losses and drive motor losses. This is the reason why hybrids with systems like those get crappy fuel economy at high speed.

Not always. At around 60 mph on a Prius the sun gear is nearly stationary and there are minimal electric power conversion losses. A clever tradeoff with increasing wind resistance.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/...borghini-to-ditch-manual-transmission-in-cars

Yet I recently sat in Ferrari's headquarters in Italy and was told, unequivocally, that the new 458 Italia would never see a manual transmission attached to its screaming V-8. The technology was too slow and outdated, the representative said.
That statement was a death rattle -- the skeleton hand gripping the cue-ball knob and shifting into history. ​

Of the supercars I've driven lately, including the Lamborghini LP 570-4 Superleggera, Lexus LFA, Bentley Continental Supersports and Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG, not one is available with a stick.

​

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i dont like that to much

Oberkanone said:

http://http://www.detroitnews.com/a...borghini-to-ditch-manual-transmission-in-cars

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Your link wasn't working, but the articlle does exist... Click here to read...

I agree I do not like this Idea of the Manual Transmission being phases out. I will agree that computers have the ability make calculations based on attainable data and in this case shift the gears faster then a human. However, the way the automatic transmission shifts through the gears is computer controlled, and a computer system is only as good as its programming. The question is will the automatic transmission shift into the gear you won’t based on the driving conditions. The answer is no, the automatic transmission cannot determine the best gear or the gear shift pattern at all times. Under semi normal driving conditions an automatic transmission will select the correct gear based on inputs that the automobile computer can obtain through driver inputs, speed data, and other data sources. In sudden dynamic situations the computer and the hardware that makes up the automatic transmission may not operate at the same rate, causing drive-ability problems. Furthermore, the automatic transmission may first select a gear that is inappropriate for the specific driving condition, and then re-select a different gear that is the correct gear for the specific driving condition. This re-selecting of gears takes time. Further more, there are specific driving conditions that you the driver may wont to stay in a low or high gear for a time, and not wont the automatic transmission to be shifting out of that gear. One may argue that the automatic transmission allows the driver to manual select a narrow gear range to stay in a gear. This is true, but manually shifting through the gears in an automatic transmission is a bit more difficult. Consequently a lot automatic transmission drivers never use there manually selected gear options. I for one prefer a manual, both for the control and the driving experience. I believe that it is a mistake to eliminate the manual transmission from automobiles. This is especially true, super cars, other performance autos, and utility vehicles. Many of the people who buy these super cars, performance autos, and utility vehicles buy these vehicles for the driving experience. Many times this experience includes a manual transmission. I believe that there will be a large market who will demand a manual transmission to be installed on these automobiles.

This is not to be contrary, but the DSG does exactly what you say it can not do. I will be one of the first to say that it does not always do it like a manual. I also might not like how it actually does get done, but it does get the job done !!!

The other is on VW's anyway a 6 speed manual for TDI's is STANDARD. So in effect, you have got to not only specify the option DSG, you have got to pay EXTRA for it.

NPR Article : Car Guru: Stop Downshift In Manual Transmissions

Lets see if we can get this debate going again

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/26/149398112/car-guru-stop-downshift-in-manual-transmissions

Car Guru: Stop Downshift In Manual Transmissions
Seventy years ago, 70 percent of U.S.-made cars came with a stick shift. The number is less than 9 percent today.
But at least one man is on a quest to reverse that slide.
Eddie Alterman loves automobiles. He's a gear head. He's the top editor at Car and Driver magazine. His whole career, he has watched the sales of cars with stick shifts decline. And when Ferrari failed to offer a manual option for the new 458 Italia, he said, enough's enough. Basta.

The Slipping Stick Shift
Sales of cars manufactured in the U.S. with manual transmissions have declined sharply since 1950.

Source: WardsAuto.com
Credit: Alyson Hurt / NPR


Alterman is making converts one by one. Recently, he gave Julia Espinosa her first lesson in driving a manual transmission, in a high school parking lot. Espinosa says, ever since her uncle regaled her with tales of touring the back roads of England as a young man, she has wanted to learn how to drive a real car. You know, one with a stick.
"So the clutch pedal needs to be depressed completely before it's going to engage? Or you said halfway," Espinosa says before the car stalls.
And stalls. And stalls a third time. But, on the fourth try she gets it.
"There you go! WHOO!" Alterman says. "You did it! Now to get into second gear."
By the time the lesson is over, Espinosa has mastered the basics. She's not ready for the back roads of England yet, but it's a start.
"A great number of people become addicted to stick shifts," says Chris Terry of Ford, who brought the car for the lesson. He says it isn't too much trouble to offer manual transmissions for a small pool of customers.
"The trouble would be if consumers didn't think they were gonna get a choice and that they thought Ford Motor Co. was gonna turn its back on driving enthusiasts," Terry says.
Alterman figures young people in particular should focus more on driving and less on distractions.
"It's about do-it-yourself, it's about having fun in the car, and not doing it through apps or downloading Pandora or anything like that," he says. "It's about actually having a connection to the mechanical part of the car."
But still, the numbers of manual shift cars keep declining.
"In 1940, we sold our first Hydromatic transmission," says GM Engineer Tim Kotlarek. His company introduced the first commercially successful automatic transmission in the U.S.
Kotlarek expects most sports cars will always come with a stick option, but even though he's a car guy, too, he prefers an automatic. Do stick shift enthusiasts think that's lazy?
"Yeah, I am, I'll be the first to admit it," he says, laughing. "But, it's the ease of things, right?"
That, plus, automatics are now as fuel efficient as manuals. And just get stuck in a stop-and-go traffic jam with a manual; that'll suck the joy out of driving a stick for sure.

Gimme A Car That's Cheap, Sporty And 'Green'
Can automakers design hybrid vehicles that appeal to the sports car driver AND the environmentalist?
But Alterman isn't ready to accept a world without manual transmissions.
"I don't want to live in that world, to tell you the truth," he says. "It's a world without guys building treehouses for their kids. It's a world without train sets. It's a world without fun."
So Alterman fights the good fight, armed with a website, some decals, and T-shirts that read, "Save the Manuals."

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And here is Alterman's "Save the Manuals" website on C&D:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/save-the-manuals-official-headquarters

Like me, you may have noticed an alarming paucity of vehicles offering fully manual transmissions. Even sports-car stalwart Ferrari, of gated-shifter fame, isn’t providing a three-pedal option on the new 458 Italia. Equally distressing, I read in the Washington Post that our nation’s hard-texting youth have pronounced driving seriously lame, with only about 30 percent of 16-year-olds having acquired driving licenses as of 2008. I can’t help but think these things are related.
If folks learned to operate the entire car, not just the steering wheel and occasionally the brakes, I’d bet they’d like driving better. If they knew the sense of control imparted by that third pedal, I’d bet they would strive for its mastery. If they knew the excitement that accompanied a perfectly timed heel-toe downshift, I can guarantee they’d be hooked.
You know what we need? We need a crusade. We need to save the manuals! Not only are manual transmissions often more fuel-efficient than their two-pedal counterparts, you also can’t text while operating one. So let’s lobby carmakers to produce more of these things because they’re safer and more frugal, and let’s not tell them that they’re way more fun. Let’s train our offspring in the ancient ways of the stick shift. Let all of us knights of the clutch pedal drive our manual-equipped cars to Washington and pop ’em in front of Barry O’s house.
Won’t you join the cause? —Eddie Alterman

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I've been trying to maximize my FE lately; and I've been enjoying the stickshift a bit less. Probably because I'm not enjoying the drive particularly much. Sure, with a stickshift I can short-shift, and letting an auto automatically pick the wrong gear is going to drive me bonkers; but driving at 60mph to maximize mpg's is like taking a sedative. Not enough brain cells firing for me to care if I'm rowing gears or not...

I have three cars, all of them have 3 pedals (2 of them are dead ATM lol). I search out manuals not only because they are more fun, but they are simpler and more reliable than their fluid controlled counterparts. Granted I would love to have an automatic in a traffic jam, that is the ONLY time I find myself wishing for one. If continuing to drive a manual means that I will never be able to purchase a new car 15-20 years from now then so be it. I have a certain pair of cheeks that the manufacturers can kiss if they think that they know what I want better than me, or if they think they can force me to buy what they want to sell.

IIRC, the DSG actually isn't necessarily sequential, it's just that the programming treats it as sequential. Porsche's version, the PDK, is actually available in single-clutch manual and double-clutch automated versions of the same transmission.

Also, the reason why single-clutch sequential automated gearboxes aren't common in cars... they pretty much universally suck, at any price point. When the DSG first came out, I recall reviews all over the place wondering why supercars didn't have it, because it was many, many times better than single-clutch sequential automated manuals.

There haven't been many cheap cars with SMGs - the only ones I can think of are the MR2 Spyder and the Smart ForTwo in North America, plus the Lupo and A2 3L/1.2 TDI in Europe, and the Gol i-Motion in Brazil. In every case, they've been awful - horrendously slow shifting (like, a drunken 13 year old girl who's never driven before could shift faster), gear selection being all over the place, etc., etc.

Even the more expensive stuff, like BMW's SMGs, they tend to suck at selecting gears and shifting when at anything other than WOT. And, the supercars are known for being horrendously brutal when shifting. WOT, they're great, though, apparently - but they don't shift quite as quickly as a dual-clutch box, as the dual-clutch box just has to rev-match and switch clutches, no shifting.

And, a dual-clutch can shift quite a bit quicker than a conventional manual, keeping power to the rear wheels. The real racers are running single-clutch sequential manuals if their series doesn't allow dual-clutch, and in many cases dual-clutch when it does.

That said, conventional manual clutch, manually shifted (whether they're sequential or H-pattern) transmissions are far cheaper to maintain, weigh less, and cost less to build. Then again, the only one of those three that affects the modern American consumer is the last one, because they don't maintain cars, and don't care how heavy they are. As for efficiency, that one can be debated - most test cycles are driven in a fixed shift points manner on manual transmissions, unless you have an upshift light to tell you otherwise (that's the real reason for upshift lights, for when the manufacturer doesn't like the EPA's shift points). A properly driven manual tends to be more efficient than automated transmissions of any kind, even CVTs (which are lossy, but can get the engine in its most efficient range if set up right).

Oh, and just because you can't skip-shift in a sequential box doesn't mean you have to engage the clutch before you land on your desired gear...

bhtooefr said:

There haven't been many cheap cars with SMGs

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In Europe, most cheap cars use SMGs as the automatic option. Toyota's entry-level Aygo has an optional 5-speed automated manual, as will the upcoming up automatic transmission version, as do many entry-level Fiats, PSA products, Opels...

In these classes, automatic transmissions account for much less than 5% of sales, if they were more expensive, it would be even less. A torque converter box would be more expensive, a dual clutch box would be too. The (minuscule) market for 2-pedal cheap cars wouldn't tolerate the cost increase.

Even PSA's high tech diesel hybrid system is built around a single clutch automated manual.

Also, the dsg only can have the next gear "ready" if it correctly anticipates which way the shifting is going. Rapidly changing driving conditions and things like skipping gears not its forte. It can not look down the road to see what's coming.

Ski in NC said:

Also, the dsg only can have the next gear "ready" if it correctly anticipates which way the shifting is going. Rapidly changing driving conditions and things like skipping gears not its forte. It can not look down the road to see what's coming.

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That's what I noticed in a Porsche 911 with PDK: Normal city driving would confuse the hell out of the transmission.

German_1er_diesel said:

That's what I noticed in a Porsche 911 with PDK: Normal city driving would confuse the hell out of the transmission.

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Give me a break..... and why would you skip gears? The DSG is a joy to drive and you can always put it in manual. Don't get me wrong I have great memories of my '69 Camaro SS with a four speed..... However for driving every day, the NEW autos are very good and give up only a tiny bit in efficiency to a manual (if you are a good manual driver).

With that said manuals did make a come back with the gas prices, as they tend to get better mileage than traditional autos. However that has changed with the direct shifting dual clutch autos. Also in general manuals across all brands are $1000 to $1200 cheaper on the sticker, which is a plus for manuals. The jury is still out on the lifetime cost of maintenance between the two types of trans, DSG vs. Manual. The VW dual mass dampened flywheel on manuals has been an issue. As far as DSG oil change, look at YouTube, it's not difficult. You can make the "special tool" for cheap and borrow a VAGCOM to get transmission temp. It looks simple to me if you have the basic tools, jack stands...

As far as maintenance, that remains to be seen.... I have got over 180,000 to 220,000 miles on my Acura's (all solenoid shift), when I sold them in good driving condition. I have also put almost that much on a Manual Subaru..... I like both, but for a daily driver the new DSG type autos are great. If they did not exist, I would not hesitate to get a manual.

The DMF has been an issue on the DSGs, too, though. So, I'd say that's a wash, with the advantage that the older manuals can easily be retrofitted with a SMF, and it can be done on the newer models.

Does the DSG hold a gear? I had a rental Camry, and if you stepped on it, despite being in "sport" or "manual" mode, it would still drop down a gear. Or two.

I guess as I lower my anual driving a fluid change every 40k isn't so bad. [Dirt driveway precludes crawling under the car. Or doing much of anything on my car, really.] But that would still be 6 fluid changes to the two that I've done thus far on my car.