President Trump may rescind a few EPA rules

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turbobrick240

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Turbo240, it doesn't give me any comfort knowing that carbon-neutral wood was once part of an ecosystem that someone chose to destroy. It's nice to have an academic discussion about wood being carbon neutral, but you really are missing the big picture.
I would respectfully disagree. As an organic farmer who has planted thousands of trees in my lifetime, uses PV generated electricity, and heats with non fossil fuels, I'd say that I probably have a much better handle on the big picture than most.
 

turbobrick240

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Maybe your brother in law is a colossal jerk, but I wouldn't begrudge him for getting some use from wood that would otherwise go to waste.
 

Oilerlord

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I would respectfully disagree. As an organic farmer who has planted thousands of trees in my lifetime, uses PV generated electricity, and heats with non fossil fuels, I'd say that I probably have a much better handle on the big picture than most.
Except that you advocate burning wood as heating fuel, even after it has already been pointed out (and you've agreed) that it isn't possibly sustainable to do so. Beyond that, I couldn't imagine how my local air quality would be like if even 10% of our city's households chose to burn wood to heat their homes. I have enough of a challenge trying to convince my neighbor from burning all kinds of "organic" tree clippings in his fire pit - sending plumes of smoke through mine, and other windows down my street.

My government has imposed a carbon tax on clean natural gas, essentially making it cost twice as much to heat our homes. This has spawned city folks to go out and buy wood stoves, and another industry that irresponsibly cuts down trees to meet this new and growing demand for fuel.

Yup, we respectfully disagree with each other. Notwithstanding responsible and sustainable forestry, wood belongs on living trees.
 

turbobrick240

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Except that you advocate burning wood as heating fuel, even after it has already been pointed out (and you've agreed) that it isn't possibly sustainable to do so. Beyond that, I couldn't imagine how my local air quality would be like if even 10% of our city's households chose to burn wood to heat their homes. I have enough of a challenge trying to convince my neighbor from burning all kinds of "organic" tree clippings in his fire pit - sending plumes of smoke through mine, and other windows down my street.
My government has imposed a carbon tax on clean natural gas, essentially making it cost twice as much to heat our homes. This has spawned city folks to go out and buy wood stoves, and another industry that irresponsibly cuts down trees to meet this new and growing demand for fuel.
Yup, we respectfully disagree with each other. Notwithstanding responsible and sustainable forestry, wood belongs on living trees.
I would certainly never agree that wood cannot be a sustainable energy source. In fact, I cited Sweden twice as a prime example of how it can be. Would it be practical, feasible, or sustainable for every human on earth to obtain every btu of energy from wood?- well, no. Those living trees are a wonderful thing- but they don't live forever. I'm sure there are a tremendous number of sensible Canadians who don't share your opinion on the horrors of wood heat. I feel we have strayed from the topic at hand- what the great pumpkin may or may not do regarding regulations. :D
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Trees do not live forever, no, but many species can outlive humans. And the carbon sequestered in their wood stays sequestered if the wood is used for something other than burning. All woody plants are essentially is airborne carbon collection devices. A 100 year old oak tree's entire "life" of doing this airborne carbon collection is undone literally in a matter of a few days or even hours if its wood is simply burnt. But that same oak tree's life's work is potentially made immortal if it is used to make lumber to build a structure of some kind. And then in theory the air stays free of that carbon collected.

Wood remains "carbon neutral" so long as the amount of it thriving on the planet stays in concert with the atmosphere's content of carbon dioxide, and that allows animals (and us humans, biologically speaking just a "smart" animal) to remain breathing. We need oxygen to allow our blood to work and rid our bodies of things we do not need. Plants, including (and especially) woody ones like trees, need that carbon to grow, and they do not need the excess oxygen.

The problem comes when too much oxygen-consuming carbon-producing mechanisms come on line, and not enough plants remain to offset that difference. That is why standing, living, healthy trees are so important. A dead or fallen and dead tree will decay and rot and eventually push that carbon back into the atmosphere anyway, by means of microbial decay. So a dead tree trunk rotting on the forest floor will not be any different than cutting it up and burning it, just that the time scale of the reintroduction of that tree's sequestered carbon will be increased dramatically in the latter. Which is why any wood I burn for heat in our farm house is almost always, probably 95% of the time, harvested from already fallen or maybe a dead-but-still-standing tree. And even the still standing ones I am very selective about as they are preferred habitats for a great many wild animals.

Wood is a natural resource, and should be properly and responsibly managed, and preserved/conserved whenever possible. Something I started doing not all that long ago was repurposing wood pallets for use into making furniture. I have made two entertainment centers, various end tables and shelves, a big table, and a few other items with wood from pallets. The big table I made from the giant oak pallets that the lifts in our new shop came on. Table must weigh 300+ pounds, LOL. But it is a sturdy one! And I would argue this pallet furniture "looks" neater than some mass-produced stuff you buy in the store, even if it is a little rustic and usually not perfectly uniform or square. :cool:

But, getting back to the general topic of this thread, I still feel strongly that the choices you make as an individual for yourself, your family, loved ones, etc. can collectively make a bigger positive difference than any well intentioned but often poorly written or executed regulations can. Still flabbergasted that a ~50 MPG Golf is "forbidden" but a 15 MPG giant pickup is perfectly fine. And the Ford F150 is once again the best selling single model vehicle in this country. Makes no sense, but I will keep driving my 50 MPG Golf every day (and keep my 15 MPG F150 parked at home unless I absolutely NEED to use it).
 
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turbobrick240

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Absolutely in agreement on all points above. As a Brit once said "Isn't it good, Norwegian wood?"
 

kjclow

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You can also burn those pallets like any other wood. Most (not all) pallets are very green oak, so you may have to let the cut pallet wood cure before burning it. You also have to watch for nails and staples when cutting it. When I lived in Wisconsin, my wife would bring home pallets from the newspaper she worked for. I guess that we burned about three face cords of logs and a face cord of pallets that winter.

I don't use my fireplace now since I've probably only needed it about a half dozen times in 20+ years of living in Charlotte. The two times I did use it, it was so inefficient at heat generation that it made the house colder as all the heat went straight up. I've got the back of the couch in front of the thing now to give me more usuable floor space.
 
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turbobrick240

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Lots of folks burn pallets around where I live in central Maine too. I do really like the idea of repurposing them into furniture. In fact, I'm at my cousin's place in Austin right now, where she has a great patio table made from a pallet and recycled lumber from an old headboard left curbside. I'm not snobbish at all about what I burn- conifers, hardwoods, scrap, it all gives good heat. My favorite species to burn from my woodlot are white ash, black locust, sugar maple, and red oak. Though I burn more red maple than anything else. The only species I refuse to burn is boxelder. It never seems to dry right, and stinks to high heaven.
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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Lots of folks burn pallets around where I live in central Maine too. I do really like the idea of repurposing them into furniture. In fact, I'm at my cousin's place in Austin right now, where she has a great patio table made from a pallet and recycled lumber from an old headboard left curbside. I'm not snobbish at all about what I burn- conifers, hardwoods, scrap, it all gives good heat. My favorite species to burn from my woodlot are white ash, black locust, sugar maple, and red oak. Though I burn more red maple than anything else. The only species I refuse to burn is boxelder. It never seems to dry right, and stinks to high heaven.
Have on hand 'bout 200 cubic feet of very dry Hickory

Used to burn in in the fireplace in the Great wall o' fire grate ~~ we got a positive heat return. But the clean up in a mess

We do now occasionally burn some in our 34 inch Fire Pit

As far as global warming goes ~~ the heat of wood that is burned is 100% equal to a rotting tree on he ground ~~ That is if the rotting tree does not get buried.

First law of conservation of energy??? ~~ Physics 2005 ~~ TU

Smoke particulates? ~~ don't know ~~ don't care
 

turbobrick240

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Hickory is one of the best. I would absolutely burn that if it were available. I take full advantage of the wood ash I generate and use it as a liming agent/potassium source for my food crops.
 

Oilerlord

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I'm sure there are a tremendous number of sensible Canadians who don't share your opinion on the horrors of wood heat. I feel we have strayed from the topic at hand- what the great pumpkin may or may not do regarding regulations. :D
I think we both dug in chasing the semantic. While the specific CO2 emission from burning nat gas is 50% less than burning wood, the math isn't as cut & dried (so to speak) considering the carbon sequestered, and if trees are planted in their place.

Time to let it go.
 

turbobrick240

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No worries. Sometimes we all have to climb down out of our high castle.
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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<snip>

and future standards could be bent along the curve. (mpg standards for example)

<snip>.
I'm all for great MPG

but as far as I am concerned the CAFE (in the furure) has gone over board to the MAX

Satisfied even with the MPG on wife's 2015 Toyota RAV4 LIMITED

Gas (here in Okieville) is relatively cheap. And she only drives 'bout 500 miles per month.

So there:D
 

rotarykid

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Good point about the probability of CAFE standards being relaxed. It might have unintended negative consequences for TDI enthusiasts and the like :-(

While I would love to see a decrease to a more practical light duty diesel auto class emissions standards,........

I know from previous observations of what happened in 1985 the last time we did away with CAFE, I know for a fact that all diesel options went away in ONE model year!

If you look at history you will see every auto maker had diesel powered autos across the board in 1985 that were gone, even VW stopped selling diesels in 1987 Model year after CAFE rules went from 40mpg by 1990 in 1985 back to 25 mpg CAFE in 1987 Model year!

The only reason today we have even the small number of light duty diesels offered here is to meet the yearly increases in CAFE required to meet current goals that max out in 2025.....

If the US weakens even slightly those in law today CAFE yearly increase goals all of the currently offered diesels in light duty class, like the coming diesel options across the board in the half ton class pickups will disappear almost overnight again! Take that one to the bank.....
 

rotarykid

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I'm all for great MPG
but as far as I am concerned the CAFE (in the furure) has gone over board to the MAX
Satisfied even with the MPG on wife's 2015 Toyota RAV4 LIMITED
Gas (here in Okieville) is relatively cheap. And she only drives 'bout 500 miles per month.
So there:D

And there stated above is the real issue we will have again if we drop CAFE with real achievable goals like we have today,,,,,,.....

there is no technical reason we could have a fleet of vehicles today on our roads that easily gets 40-50mpgUS, we have had the tech to do this for over three decades now!

Too many people like you believe it is affordable to drive a ~10-15mpg vehicle as a daily driver!

Now you might be able to afford this as long as we stay at ~2 a gal, which we all know we will not for very long!

But as most that didn't seem to be able to do math found out the last time these gas guzzlers in no way is doable as a daily driver when we have 4 or higher a gal the next time.....

Now this seems to be a lessen that too many seem to have already forgotten,.....

Before you or anyone buys a new 10-18mpg real world gas guzzler that because of purchase price you will have to live with for years to come irregardless of the cost at the pump, do the math on whether you will be able to afford ~$150 or more a week for gas to get to & from work on a daily basis....

anyone who buys one of these things as your only way to get around really needs to add up what that fuel wasting monster will cost to run when(not if) we go back to 4+ a gal again!!!

If you cannot afford that cost when the price of fuel goes back up, and have no doubt that it will again go back to at least 4 a gal again, then you need to choose something else, something else that get better mpgs....


And when the price does go back up again to 4+ a gal if you did do this math will you be able to live with the cost of that....

And before anyone says it, you will not be able to just sell the gas guzzler to get your money back when this happens because the people who might have bought it will be in the same sinking boat you are in when the price goes back up again.....
 

gulfcoastguy

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Yes last time this cycle ran through I found Yukons, 4 door pickups, and even boats on the side of the road. Dealers wouldn't even consider them as trade ins. Plus loans have gone from 3 or 4 years to 5 or 6.
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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Too many people like you believe it is affordable to drive a ~10-15mpg vehicle as a daily driver!
Her Guzzler is getting 24 - 31 MPG ~~ for the record

Now you might be able to afford this as long as we stay at ~$2 a gal, which we all know we will not for very long!
Okies (generally) pay at the bottom of national fuel rates - I've seen Tulsa at way more than a dollar cheaper

But as most that didn't seem to be able to do math found out the last time these gas guzzlers in no way is doable as a daily driver when we have 4 or higher a gal the next time.....
She drives about 500 miles a month -- and the credit card is about $20 a month -- generally one fill up

So when gas in Okieville hits $6.00 per gallon her bill will be about $60 per month

and at (WHEN) Tulsa gas at $6.00 ~~ guessing poor other sates will be at $7 or $8 per gallon


Before you or anyone buys a new 10-18mpg real world gas guzzler that because of purchase price you will have to live with for years to come irregardless of the cost at the pump, do the math on whether you will be able to afford ~$150 or more a week for gas to get to & from work on a daily basis....
... as I said at Tulsa $6.00 per gallon, her weekly fuel cost will be about $15 -- :D



If you cannot afford that cost when the price of fuel goes back up, and have no doubt that it will again go back to at least 4 a gal again, then you need to choose something else, something else that get better mpgs.... And when the price does go back up again to 4+ a gal if you did do this math will you be able to live with the cost of that....
24 - 31 MPG is fine with her ~~ as she just drive a very few miles

I have ask her to drive my TDI from time to time ~~ so as to get my car out of the garage ~~ mostly she will have none of it -- :mad:
 

Oilerlord

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Too many people like you believe it is affordable to drive a ~10-15mpg vehicle as a daily driver!

Before you or anyone buys a new 10-18mpg real world gas guzzler that because of purchase price you will have to live with for years to come irregardless of the cost at the pump, do the math on whether you will be able to afford ~$150 or more a week for gas to get to & from work on a daily basis....anyone who buys one of these things as your only way to get around really needs to add up what that fuel wasting monster will cost to run when(not if) we go back to 4+ a gal again!!!
It all depends on how many miles you drive.

Cases in point:

My wife drives a 2004 BMW that returns ~17MPG. She fell in love with the new BMW 330e PHEV but we can't make the "math" make sense because she only uses about $75 per month in fuel. I'd put her car in the category of "fuel wasting monster" however even if the price of fuel doubles - she's only paying $150 per month.

A few years back, I bought a nearly-mint condition 2002 Infiniti QX4. I thought I was being smart because I was able to pick up the car on the cheap. I loved everything about that SUV except it's 16MPG. I was into premium gas for ~$150 per week (about $8,000 per year). Suddenly, that SUV wasn't such a good deal after all. Essentially, I'd get a "free" JSW TDI for the price of 5 years of fuel. I sold the car a year later and bought the JSW.

Math suggested a BEV would make sense for me, but only if I could buy it cheap enough so that the (relative) absence of fuel & maintenance costs offset the price of the car. Used BEV's are incredibly affordable, and if you can make a car with an 80-100 mile range work for you - there isn't another modern (2014+) car that can beat it from a TCO standpoint. I figured the ICE-related fuel and maintenance for our 2004 Audi wagon to be about $25,000 over it's lifetime (we sold it a few months ago). Assuming my B250e remains reliable, and compared to the Audi, I believe it will eventually pay for itself in 6-8 years. Since last June, I've had 7000 miles using no gasoline. Yes there is a cost to electricity, however I only pay ~$0.08 (taxes & fees included), and have 9.2kW of solar generation that mitigates that to some extent.
 
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donDavide

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It all depends on how many miles you drive.

Cases in point:

My wife drives a 2004 BMW that returns ~17MPG. She fell in love with the new BMW 330e PHEV but we can't make the "math" make sense because she only uses about $75 per month in fuel. I'd put her car in the category of "fuel wasting monster" however even if the price of fuel doubles - she's only paying $150 per month.

A few years back, I bought a nearly-mint condition 2002 Infiniti QX4. I thought I was being smart because I was able to pick up the car on the cheap. I loved everything about that SUV except it's 16MPG. I was into premium gas for ~$150 per week (about $8,000 per year). Suddenly, that SUV wasn't such a good deal after all. Essentially, I'd get a "free" JSW TDI for the price of 5 years of fuel. I sold the car a year later and bought the JSW.

Math suggested a BEV would make sense for me, but only if I could buy it cheap enough so that the (relative) absence of fuel & maintenance costs offset the price of the car. Used BEV's are incredibly affordable, and if you can make a car with an 80-100 mile range work for you - there isn't another modern (2014+) car that can beat it from a TCO standpoint. I figured the ICE-related fuel and maintenance for our 2004 Audi wagon to be about $25,000 over it's lifetime (we sold it a few months ago). Assuming my B250e remains reliable, and compared to the Audi, I believe it will eventually pay for itself in 6-8 years. Since last June, I've had 7000 miles using no gasoline. Yes there is a cost to electricity, however I only pay ~$0.08 (taxes & fees included), and have 9.2kW of solar generation that mitigates that to some extent.
I had a 2001 QX4, I loved it, 16 mpg is about what I got, put it in AWD or 4WD and mileage dropped to 13 MPG. I did get as high as 23mpg one January (2006) when I had to drive to Wheeling, West Virginia to help a stranded friend.
 
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2015vwgolfdiesel

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It all depends on how many miles you drive.


Cases in point:

My wife drives a 2004 BMW that returns ~17MPG. She fell in love with the new BMW 330e PHEV but we can't make the "math" make sense because she only uses about $75 per month in fuel. I'd put her car in the category of "fuel wasting monster" however even if the price of fuel doubles - she's only paying $150 per month.

A few years back, I bought a nearly-mint condition 2002 Infiniti QX4. I thought I was being smart because I was able to pick up the car on the cheap. I loved everything about that SUV except it's 16MPG. I was into premium gas for ~$150 per week (about $8,000 per year). Suddenly, that SUV wasn't such a good deal after all. Essentially, I'd get a "free" JSW TDI for the price of 5 years of fuel. I sold the car a year later and bought the JSW.

Math suggested a BEV would make sense for me, but only if I could buy it cheap enough so that the (relative) absence of fuel & maintenance costs offset the price of the car. Used BEV's are incredibly affordable, and if you can make a car with an 80-100 mile range work for you - there isn't another modern (2014+) car that can beat it from a TCO standpoint. I figured the ICE-related fuel and maintenance for our 2004 Audi wagon to be about $25,000 over it's lifetime (we sold it a few months ago). Assuming my B250e remains reliable, and compared to the Audi, I believe it will eventually pay for itself in 6-8 years. Since last June, I've had 7000 miles using no gasoline. Yes there is a cost to electricity, however I only pay ~$0.08 (taxes & fees included), and have 9.2kW of solar generation that mitigates that to some extent.
........ My wife drives her (GUZZLER) 2015 Toyota RAV4 LIMITED only a very few miles ~~ 'bout 500 miles per month

....... She has a soft foot, and get nice MPG

....... Mostly only fills up once a month:D
 

Oilerlord

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I had a 2001 QX4, I loved it.
Me too. Mine was like a time capsule when I bought it. Looked and even smelled brand new:



As memory serves, I think it had about 10,000 miles on it when I bought it. Premium gas cost almost double back then. That certainly was a catalyst for me selling it. $2 gasoline may have made the decision not as easy to make. It was a fantastic vehicle.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I never understood why people bought those new when the Nissan dealer was selling the Pathfinder for so much less, even the tarted up trim level. At least those looked better than the vomit inducing SUVs Infiniti now has at their lot. Gosh, they just get uglier and uglier as time goes on.
 

Oilerlord

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I always wanted one of these, but to your point; these gussied up Pathfinders were pricey. When this one came along, in near mint condition, and at fraction of its original MSRP, I couldn't resist. You're right. The new stuff does look a little like puke.
 

donDavide

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I never understood why people bought those new when the Nissan dealer was selling the Pathfinder for so much less, even the tarted up trim level. At least those looked better than the vomit inducing SUVs Infiniti now has at their lot. Gosh, they just get uglier and uglier as time goes on.
I bought mine used in 2004 ( as I do with all of my cars), It had some features I liked that the pathfinder didn't have, for example, I like the dash trim and steering wheel better (wood grain). And yes the new stuff is ugly.
 

Oilerlord

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Along with the upscale interior, the QX4 also had Xenon headlights, and a radar-based cruise control that modified speed when you came up on other vehicles. It wasn't exactly Tesla Autopilot but it was ahead of it's time and worked quite well. Back in 2002, I lusted for the QX4 but instead bought a 2001 Pathfinder because it cost less. Clearly the years made me forget about that VQ35's thirst for premium fuel when I picked up the used QX4 in 2011.
 

donDavide

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Along with the upscale interior, the QX4 also had Xenon headlights, and a radar-based cruise control that modified speed when you came up on other vehicles. It wasn't exactly Tesla Autopilot but it was ahead of it's time and worked quite well. Back in 2002, I lusted for the QX4 but instead bought a 2001 Pathfinder because it cost less. Clearly the years made me forget about that VQ35's thirst for premium fuel when I picked up the used QX4 in 2011.
Mine ran fine on RUG, but my 1995 Pathfinder would need premium in the summer, go figure.
 

ssamalin

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This Is Your Air Without CARB

That's what I figured when he started office. Maybe we'll see more diesel vehicles that everyone else in the world enjoys.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/17/...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Sure hope we see CARB compliant diesels or our cities will be as polluted as London. I live in a smog ridden city. I treat kids and seniors suffocating in it. That's why regulations are necessary. They have saved the well being of millions. If you don't like CARB, guess you don't watch your kid trying to breath. Enjoy your smoggy cars with President Trump, just hope you don't have to take your grandkids to the ER to be intubated.
 
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