Stage 4 tune owners out there, help with FE and smoke

I'm getting 30-33 mpg in my 2003 ALH wagon. I do a number of short trips every week. (5-10 minute drives) I drive about 40% highway miles. Here is what has been done to it: * Malone Stage 4 tune * 1019 injectors * 11mm pump * EUH 5-speed transmission (The car originally had an auto transmission) * Cat has been deleted. * VNT17 Turbo * Sachs Power Clutch and G60/VR6 Flywheel. (rated for 300 ft/lbs of torque) * EGR has been deleted. (ASV valve is still in use though) * 3 bar MAP sensor. * 17" Long Beach wheels used and new 225/45/17 tires IQ is at 4.8, rear wheels rotate fine, injection timing dead on the blue line, tire pressures at 45 psi, front & rear alignment are perfect, engine temperature 195 5W40, synthetic oil. Bottom egnine shield in place, static timing is perfect, new air filter, snow screen cleaned, intake manifold has been cleaned, ventectomy (always fill fuel to same level) Used GPS to correct for odometer error. Unless I am super easy on the gas off the light it smokes. (wasted fuel) I drive it somewhat aggressive at times. I do coast in gear up to stop lights. The car runs perfect and is very fast. Is there any way to reduce some of the smoke I get? My FE has gone down on my wagon and my sedan (Kerma tune) since I installed the tunes. Are other ALH owners with stage 4 tunes getting around the same FE? Is there anything that I should check to increase FE? (I think I have covered most everything) Thanks!

Im running a MK4 05 Jetta with an almost identical setup. My daily commute is 20 minutes with 50/50 city and 55 mph driving. I normally get 30-32 back and forth to work and 38 highway.. I think too it should be better but...?? My timing is set just under zero which makes it start harder but i have very little smoke, and slightly less power. Im gonna have it adjusted up over zero as soon as i get a chance. One thing ive started doing which is good for the overall health of the fuel system is im running Amsoil Cetane Boost. I was sceptical of the boasted 7 point cetane number increase till i ran a tank or two of it. I can tell the difference! Easier cold starts, and better responsiveness and fuel economy on the road..

I too am looking to improve my economy if its possible! I had a friend with a stage 3 or 4 golf, setup much the same way and he was getting upper forties to low 50s on a normal basis. The lowest he ever calculated was 48 i believe he said. Now THAT is where i would like to be!

Try moving your IQ up until you notice a loss of power and see what you get, I've got 1019s and I think my IQ is in the 5s or 6s...been a while since I've hooked it up to the laptop...but similar setup ALH, add 3 inch exhaust and S7 turbo and I'm at or above 50mpg depending on how far above 70mph I go...

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No kidding, how is smoke at those IQ values? Car starts fine and everything?

The car starts instantly regardless of how cold it is. I keep it at 2000 rpm or so when cruising. No smoke when cruising. I will try turning up the IQ, but it is only supposed to affect FE at idle since the computer takes over after that. I have tried the cetane boost and didn't notice a difference so I have stopped adding it. Thx!

My IQ is at 8.8 for no smoke. Plenty power, FE is high 30's at the moment, I suspect winter fuel, it's been so cold that
it wouldn't surprise me if the refineries have been throwing a lot of extra kerosene in, or whatever they use.

FE with a Stage 4, I'm at 26psi, with LOTS of air and big nozzles,
fat sticky tires, and snappy performance, hey, so it's costing me
a bit. But what else can you drive that comes anywhere close to
the mileage vs performance factor?
16gals of fuel cost me <$44, that'll take me 600 miles of hard driving.
Great bang for the buck IMO.



I can run 80 all day, wanna' pass? np. Lol, I run WAZE and a radar detector, fingers crossed, so far so good.

Thanks! I just set the injection pump timing smack on the green line (max advanced) and set the IQ to 8.2. (The highest it would go) I actually had to do the hammer mod for the first time due to the IQ already be maxed out at 4.8. I will fill her up and run through a tank and let everyone know what happens.

mrfiat,
I know the usual recommendation for maximum performance is run
the IP timing as high as possible, I'm not sure that that is actually the best for FE. And making the power I already am, I'm at a timing of 58, above the mid blue line, but no where near max.
Just a thought, I have no data or theories to support my practice.
I do know my car's running good, starts easily hot or cold with hardly
any throttle.

Cheers,
R*2

Thanks. Mine starts instantly without any throttle. I will let you know if that changes. After this tank I might try lowering it back to the blue line if I'm not happy with the FE.

Good luck let us know how it goes

You're running too much fuel, maybe way too much fuel. PP520s are a nice match to a VNT-17 and 11mm pump with stage 4 tuning. I'd get Malone to take a bunch of fuel out of the tune instead of compromising it with bumping the IQ to some absurd level. Car should be low smoke with the IQ at 3.0-3.6 if tuned correctly.

My car with RC4+ and PP520s with an 11mm pump would get mid 40s easily, better on long drives.

The idea of running big nozzles and then raising the IQ to reduce smoke has never made sense to me. I've felt it's better to more closely match the injectors to the rest of the car's setup and tune for full fuel flow. But if you don't want to change out the injector nozzles Malone should be able to help.

My IQ is set at about 4.0. I do get thick smoke at WOT when pulling the trailer up steep hills otherwise it is pretty good. My mileage is probably about 25 mpg with the trailer onboard, since we really don't commute with the TDI anymore, I don't have any unloaded readings but I think it is still very respectable.

My timing is near the max line.

I have an 11mm pump to install soon once I find a PD150 Intake manifold and EGT gauge

I was very detailed in telling Malone about my setup before they did the tune. I would think that they would have reduced the fuel in the initial tune they sent me due to the 1019s. (Those injectors are sweet BTW I believe both Kerma and Malone told me to set my IQ to 3.0, but that does create a bit of smoke and poor FE. I did go back to Kerma on my sedan's tune complaining about FE and the new tune they sent me only increased FE by 1-2 mpg. (while reducing power quite a bit)


Kerma is the one that recommended that I go with the 1019s in this setup.

In order to be 100% clear, I am asking about the Malone Stage 4 tune in my wagon, but I'm also talking about the Kerma
tune in my sedan.


Indigo, you are saying that Kerma was incorrect on the nozzle selection and that I should go back to Malone and ask for a more fuel efficient tune, correct?

It does seem unlikely that both of your cars are returning lower than expected MPG's.

I tried my IQ at 6.0 and had a harder time pulling the trailer in a head wind (I like to keep the speed around 65mph). Set it back down to 4.0 and it made a huge difference in the power but more smoke as well.

Keep in mind that your 11mm pump is pushing more fuel into those injectors so if they can take the extra fuel they will. Does your other car have an 11mm pump?

What are some common issues that can be affecting both cars?

Perhaps the terrain in your area is hilly?
What about fuel quality?
Driving into a head wind?
How high are you above sea level?
Someone is stealing your fuel at night?

Anything else that you can think of?

My IQ shifted radically after my EGR delete and PD150 intake.
Dropped about 4 points. I also had turbo spikes, now solved.
ARP head studs ordered, and once they're installed, I'll be able to
drop the IQ a bit for more power. At 8.8 IQ car is running smoke free,
and cleaning up the intake with the catchcan should clean up the turbo, I suspect it's a bit dirty.

Jeff of RC did allow that he could make changes to the fuelling map
after I got some of the tweaks resolved; big nozzles, but atomising well
was his take on the car. Still a work in progress, I've got a lot of head
room in what the car and current hardware is capable of.

It's been a gradual incremental series of improvements, and the
slow and easy approach has given me a sense of what each upgrade
does, and how it effects the driveability and the performance I want.
I'm no after a dragster, or a wheel spinning autocross machine.

We'll be making a trip south in a month or so with the camper, that's
part of the car's "requirements". FE is nice, but is not my ultimate goal. It'll be interesting to see how some of the recent work changes
its towability vs 5k miles last spring to Utah and back.

Mine is a BEW, is the IQ the same as the injection timing or whatever its called that you adjust on the end of the camshaft? I would like more FE and wouldnt be against more smoke but i know they adjusted the timing on the end of the cam to -1 to -2 i believe. Youre saying then that i could adjust this number up to 8 or so to get better FE??

I have stock injectors, VNT 17, PD150, Malone Stage 4, auto to manual swap so im assuming an 11mm pump, 3 bar map, egr delete, 2.5 inch with glasspack.... Any reccomendations?

Both cars have had everything checked and are running perfect.



Keep in mind that your 11mm pump is pushing more fuel into those injectors so if they can take the extra fuel they will. Does your other car have an 11mm pump?


No. My last city tank in the sedan was 34 mpg. The sedan has a VNT15, PP520 injectors, and a Kerma tune.

What are some common issues that can be affecting both cars?


Not sure.

Perhaps the terrain in your area is hilly?


Somewhat but not bad. Just a gentle slope up to the mountains and you should gain whatever you lost on the way down.

What about fuel quality?


I usually get fuel from Smiths. All the fuel in Albuquerque comes from one pipeline anyways, so it doesn't matter which gas station you get it from.

Driving into a head wind?


Just driving around town, no head wind all the time or anything like that.

How high are you above sea level?


5000 ft.

Someone is stealing your fuel at night?


If they can break into my garage with my alarm on, then they are welcome to it.

The harsh reality is here that I believe a tuned ALH gets this kind of FE in town. I have two of them and they both get around the same FE in the city.
I realize that some people here on the forum say differently, but I have two tuned cars getting around the same FE in town. Do both my cars have something wrong with them and everyone else's cars don't?

I'm hoping that adjusted the IQ up will help. I think it will since I'm getting less smoke now. But the power has dropped. Still very quick though.

If you're getting 30-33 MPG, maybe the 1019s aren't so sweet. I'd be appalled by that FE. Other than track days, I can count on the fingers of one hand times I've gotten less than 40 MPG, and that's over 16 years and 380K miles. And for a lot of those miles my car was set up more aggressively than yours.

I don't think this is tune or nozzles alone. I'd look at compression, static timing, the vacuum system, and certainly injector spray patterns and balance. To use that much fuel in an ALH something's seriously wrong.

I'd look at compression, static timing, the vacuum system, and certainly injector spray patterns and balance

Compression has been checked and is very close across all cylinders.
Static timing is perfect. (I did the timing belt job myself and it is spot on) Vacuum is 25-26 and all the vacuum hoses have been replaced. Brand new injectors from Kerma. Balanced, etc. I have checked the balance on the injectors and it is within spec.

I'll toss my $0.02 here, I'd say your nozzles are suspect (I assume this all started when you put those in?). Your "unless I am super easy on the gas off the light it smokes" is giving me flashbacks to my own experience with wonky injectors:

I put a set of DLC520s in my car (otherwise 100% stock ALH auto, so 11mm pump), and was barely able to get 35-36 if I really feathered the throttle pedal, and even then was leaving a black cloud everywhere I went with my IQ at 7.5-8.0. This on a freshly-remanufactured 11mm injection pump, with no hammer mod, in a car that with stock nozzles was averaging 43-44MPG with 2 tanks documented at 47MPG. Even had a thread over in the performance enhancement session about it (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=468062).

Got Kerma to build me a completely fresh set, installed those, and even without an IQ readjust I jumped up from 33-35 to 40MPG. Readjusted the IQ back to 6 (changing only the injectors changed it from near 8.0 to around 4.6), and have been at 41-43 ever since. Smoke is gone too, except for some light grey at WOT.

Since you've already checked the stuff on IBW's list, I'll toss in a boost leak test. If that's OK too, then you might have to consider the possibility that something's just plan FUBAR in your nozzles.

I'm getting similar FE with my sedan. (better than in the sedan, but smaller nozzles and a less aggressive tune) The nozzles in both cars came from Kerma and were pop tested and balanced. I'm not leaving a black cloud anymore with my wagon since I turned the IQ up to 8.2. So you think both sets of nozzles from Kerma are bad?

I looked over my FE numbers and here is what I found: (all in town #s) My old 1999.5 Jetta sedan totally stock: 34-38 mpg 2003 Jetta sedan: 32-34 mpg (after the tune) 2003 Jetta wagon: 30-33 mpg (after the tune)

Mrfiat,
Without casting any nasturtiums, I'd try finding a local diesel shop
and have a set tested. Should be set for 220bar/300bar. There are some who play with those pressures.
My local shop charges me $120 to test and balance a set of 4 injectors.
Somebody who knows what they're doing, and has the hardened shims to adjust our 2 stage injector springs,
can do it with a simple hand pump type tester like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Diesel-Injector-Nozzle-Tester-Pop-Pressure-Tester-Dual-Scale-600-8000-PSI-BAR/112480927218?hash=item1a3062bdf2:gIYAAOSwpoNal6Wr:rk:2f:0

mrfiat said:

I looked over my FE numbers and here is what I found: (all in town #s) My old 1999.5 Jetta sedan totally stock: 34-38 mpg 2003 Jetta sedan: 32-34 mpg (after the tune) 2003 Jetta wagon: 30-33 mpg (after the tune)

Click to expand...

Those are surprising numbers. My '02 Wagon has averaged 46.2 over the last 163K miles (as long as I've been tracking it on Fuelly). My '99.5 Golf (RC3, all stock otherwise), averages 44.5. And my B4 Passat has done 47.2. Those numbers are more than 20% different. I think there must be something about where you live (hills, altitude, humidity or lack of it, roads) that are resulting in such low FE.

Russell didn't I already pay Kerma to install the injectors in the injector bodies and test them? I just installed the injectors last fall and I would think they are in like new condition at this point.

Two funny sets at once does seem unlikely. I used Kerma's hot-swap program with both sets of my DLC520s, so the injector bodies/nozzle installation/balancing was all done by them.

IBW, are mrfiat's numbers really that surprising for mostly city driving? I'm used to the 80-85% highway that I (and many folks around here do), so I don't have a good baseline for city MPG, other than recalling that the window sticker on my '02 said (I think) 36 City/45 Highway...

ALH manual was 42/49. Wagon is 42/50. I used to commute to Boston from my home, 36 miles each way. Trip took from 45 to 90 minutes, usually. Never saw less than 40 MPG, summer or winter.

The verdict is in. I just ran through 1/2 a tank and filled it up. 32 mpg. I did a little more highway miles than usual on this tank as well. So turning up the IQ from 4.8 to 8.2 cut out 75% of the smoke and reduced the power by about 20%. I will set the IQ back to where it was since this experiment didn't work.

How does injector balance look in VCDS?

on my 03 wagon with 1019's and vnt 17 with 5 speed and stage 4 tune, I would usually get 40-41.
My stock 03 sedan just got 52 on the way back from Arizona, rainy as all hell using AC to clear up the window and some stop and go traffic.

The wagon had a .658 5th gear and I was not gentle on the throttle. rpms at 80 were 400 less in 5th