what to do after neutered/ruined

forrest resto`s

Veteran Member
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Jul 8, 2007
Location
athens ga.
TDI
2000 jetta tdi auto rc2 2013 passat tdi 2015 passat tdi auto 2011 jetta tdi nav. s'roof..man. dpf delete 1970 GTO JUDGE 520 HP
what to do after neutered..been reading that some cars are really ruined after mod.. what are our options to fix this?.. according to the description from VW this should not be this bad...loss of power and really dropped mpg's...I have an appointment for my 2011 6mt next week and am seriously concerned that my car will be ruined...:mad:..where do we draw the line where the fix does more negative results than VW says it will do..e.g. 4-6 loss of mpg...10-25% loss of power? what will be enough loss that it is unacceptable?? Where/when will we say, or draw a line and say "this is not what is supposed to happen//you have ruined my car..this IS unacceptable"
 
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Nash_TDI

Veteran Member -TDIClub Enthusiast
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Sep 3, 2002
Location
Louisville, ky
TDI
2000 Silver Jetta TDI
Just switch it to buyback if you believe all the bull****. Or tune it and delete it after you get it back with the fat check you get.
 

forrest resto`s

Veteran Member
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Jul 8, 2007
Location
athens ga.
TDI
2000 jetta tdi auto rc2 2013 passat tdi 2015 passat tdi auto 2011 jetta tdi nav. s'roof..man. dpf delete 1970 GTO JUDGE 520 HP
Just switch it to buyback if you believe all the bull****. Or tune it and delete it after you get it back with the fat check you get.
so all the people that have complaints are full of sh$$?? wow..great answer:rolleyes: some people have very little differences.. while some have major ones.. so apparently there may be some inconsistencies in the updates..this would be the doing of the installers of the updates possibly:confused: I don't think this is bull sh$$
 
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St.Hubbins

Veteran Member
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Mar 16, 2010
Location
Nashville
TDI
'10 Golf, DSG / '11 A3, DSG (both went buyback) - '15 GSW SE
so all the people that have complaints are full of sh$$?? wow..great answer:rolleyes: some people have very little differences.. while some have major ones.. so apparently there may be some inconsistencies in the updates..this would be the doing of the installers of the updates possibly:confused: I don't think this is bull sh$$
then take his second suggestion and tune it... probably worth the upgrade even if you didn't notice a performance dip
 

surfstar

Veteran Member
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May 3, 2017
Location
SB, CA
TDI
2014 Golf & Passat - sold | 2016 GSW TSI
so all the people that have complaints are full of sh$$?? wow..great answer:rolleyes: some people have very little differences.. while some have major ones.. so apparently there may be some inconsistencies in the updates..this would be the doing of the installers of the updates possibly:confused: I don't think this is bull sh$$
Anecdotal evidence, is not evidence.

Lets see a before/after dyno. A before/after timed/video'd 0-60 run.
Before/after mpg (with many tanks and miles to establish a real trend).

People believe that a louder car is a faster car. The butt-dyno and placebo effect give all kinds of wrong answers when it comes to modifying cars.
 

joe schmoe

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Mar 10, 2014
Location
East TN
TDI
2012 Jetta TDI Manual Trans
I've got first hand dealings, had my Jetta "fixed" Last Friday I've already run through one full tank and working on the second my fuel mileage is HORRIBLE!!! In the 6 days since the repair I had to fill up where before the "fix" it would take me at least 2 weeks before I needed a fill up... Ran through a full tank in 6 stinking days...Yeah that's real world numbers....


I have no dyno numbers to give but it is definitely requiring more RPMs to take off from a red light and takes much longer to accelerate onto the interstate speeds (70+)
 

demagxc

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Location
Massachusetts
TDI
2015 Golf TDI SEL
Last Friday I've already run through one full tank and working on the second my fuel mileage is HORRIBLE!!! In the 6 days since the repair I had to fill up where before the "fix" it would take me at least 2 weeks before I needed a fill up... Ran through a full tank in 6 stinking days...Yeah that's real world numbers....
You didnt give any real meaningful numbers at all... How many miles per tank? how many gallons did you fill up? Before and after MPG hand calculated, scanguage, or even MFD?
 

SkeeterMark

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Location
North Branch, MN
TDI
2013 Jetta TDI 6M
I've got first hand dealings, had my Jetta "fixed" Last Friday I've already run through one full tank and working on the second my fuel mileage is HORRIBLE!!! In the 6 days since the repair I had to fill up where before the "fix" it would take me at least 2 weeks before I needed a fill up... Ran through a full tank in 6 stinking days...Yeah that's real world numbers....


I have no dyno numbers to give but it is definitely requiring more RPMs to take off from a red light and takes much longer to accelerate onto the interstate speeds (70+)
The "real" world numbers you provided:

last [last Friday
first [first hand]
one [one full tank]
second [working on the second]
2 [2 weeks]
6 [stinking days]
more [rpms]
longer [much longer]
70 [70+]

That's some great data right there :rolleyes:


There does seem to be significantly different initial reactions. Is it all in the mind? Or maybe current condition of exhaust components such as the DPF can produce different results. Who knows, at this point?

In the absence of a dyno, I'm going to run a few 0-60 times before and after, and I have full data on mileage to compare to. You know ... real numbers.
 

93celicaconv

Veteran Member
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May 22, 2013
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
Turned in my 2010 Jetta TDI Cup Edition to VW, DSG, Nav, Sunroof / Replaced with a 2015 Passat TDI SEL Premium
Regarding getting a tune after the fix and expecting that to solve this "neutered" problem, got this from Owain at Malone:

We will not be reverting the fix adjustments, only offering performance tunes atop of them. Reversing federally mandated emissions updates and falsifying data outputs is not something we will be getting into.

I interpret this to mean that, if before the fix, you were averaging 45 MPG, you could probably get up to 48 MPG after the tune. Now after the fix, if you are down to 35 MPG, you could expect 38 MPG after the tune. That's my interpretation of the Malone message. Not sure there is salvation to get back to pre-fix conditions with a tune that doesn't undue some/most of the parameters the dealers had to put into the ECU fix.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
You can also record some engine data, too, for before and after results. However it is important to remember that DPF regen cycles could skew the results if data is obtained in short concentrated events. Long(er) term data gathering is better. I am also curious as to if the DPF adaptations are getting properly reset afterwards. I would *think* that a reflash would force that (it does on MB products), but I do not know how VAG does it.

It is not rocket science though to conclude that ANY modification that will reduce NOx (aside from an entire SCR installation) will increase fuel consumption at least a little. And that increase in fuel consumption will also necessitate more frequent DPF regen cycles, which in turn with further increase fuel consumption.

Given there are two stages of regen (at least there was with the "cheating" software), and a lot of people do not have a really good idea of when their car is actually doing so let alone how often, it could be a difficult task to make a valid comparison before and after. I only give credibility to someone who has amassed a lot of data beforehand over a wide variety of driving conditions and a significant number of miles to make a good comparison.

Great opportunity for the tuners, though! Because they can offer something that they really could not before: availing themselves for a service to put the car to as-it-left-the-factory! That is probably the route I would take if I did not want to lose the DPF. And I hope the tuners can do software that allows for this, and allows the engine to do what it does best: run really lean, not smoke, and use very little fuel.
 
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forrest resto`s

Veteran Member
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Jul 8, 2007
Location
athens ga.
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2000 jetta tdi auto rc2 2013 passat tdi 2015 passat tdi auto 2011 jetta tdi nav. s'roof..man. dpf delete 1970 GTO JUDGE 520 HP
Regarding getting a tune after the fix and expecting that to solve this "neutered" problem, got this from Owain at Malone:

We will not be reverting the fix adjustments, only offering performance tunes atop of them. Reversing federally mandated emissions updates and falsifying data outputs is not something we will be getting into.

I interpret this to mean that, if before the fix, you were averaging 45 MPG, you could probably get up to 48 MPG after the tune. Now after the fix, if you are down to 35 MPG, you could expect 38 MPG after the tune. That's my interpretation of the Malone message. Not sure there is salvation to get back to pre-fix conditions with a tune that doesn't undue some/most of the parameters the dealers had to put into the ECU fix.
so you guys that are saying get the tune after.. this presents a problem if true..but then again.. they were doing their tunes before all this diesel gate stuff...
I'm would think altering the federal mandated emissions programs somewhat before would be questionable.. right? What's the difference?
 

SkeeterMark

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Location
North Branch, MN
TDI
2013 Jetta TDI 6M
We will not be reverting the fix adjustments, only offering performance tunes atop of them. Reversing federally mandated emissions updates and falsifying data outputs is not something we will be getting into.
I fail to see where this is federally mandated. It is still at the discretion of the owner whether to have the fix installed or not. We are not required to comply. I also fail to see why altering it after the fix would in any way be different than altering after receiving it from the factory.

Maybe this is just a disclaimer statement....with a *wink-wink* on the side.
 
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forrest resto`s

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Location
athens ga.
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2000 jetta tdi auto rc2 2013 passat tdi 2015 passat tdi auto 2011 jetta tdi nav. s'roof..man. dpf delete 1970 GTO JUDGE 520 HP
soo .. is it possible that VW understated the effects of the updates/fix:rolleyes: Oh that would be just a little deceitful.. they would never do that..funny though.. when these cars came out new.. the epa mpg est. on the window sticker was conservative, that made people happy!... now maybe it is LESS than what they were advertising after the fix..maybe alot less..not to mention the advertised power when new and what it will be after the fix..if this change is for real.. what a bummer...
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I've not read any objective data on the Gen 1 fix's impact on power or economy. The only hard info I've seen on the fix on any TDI is Car & Driver's before and after comparison on a 2015 Passat. In that case the car's performance and economy was virtually unchanged.

Of course the Gen 1 results may be different. And reading here, I'd say the ratio of people feeling the car's power delivery is the same versus losing power is about 10:1. Many, many more people report the car driving similarly, or even better, post fix. And two weeks into the fix it's fair to assume we have no reliable fuel economy data.

To the OP: If you get the car fixed and are unhappy with the performance, then you can have it tuned. Leave the emissions gear intact if you'd like. But trying to decide based on what you're reading here is guesswork.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I fail to see where this is federally mandated. It is still at the discretion of the owner whether to have the fix installed or not. We are not required to comply. I also fail to see why altering it after the fix would in any way be different than altering after receiving it from the factory.

Maybe this is just a disclaimer statement....with a *wink-wink* on the side.
I agree, that makes no sense to me. They were doing EGR/DPF delete tunes before, but now suddenly they won't put it back to factory? Certainly the "cheating" cars run cleaner than one with no EGR or DPF at all! At least my scientific nose thinks so, LOL. :p
 

93celicaconv

Veteran Member
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May 22, 2013
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
Turned in my 2010 Jetta TDI Cup Edition to VW, DSG, Nav, Sunroof / Replaced with a 2015 Passat TDI SEL Premium
I've been watching the reactions on post-fix inputs here closely also. I would say the ratio is closer to 1:1 (bad results:no change or better). I didn't do any statistics though. But I agree with IndigoBlueWagon in that if one can afford to wait this out and see more hard data, a better choice can be made. I have an extended warranty from when I bought the car from a dealer in May 2015 that gets me to May 2018, and it covers all emissions and fuel systems - a bumper-to-bumper warranty extension. I have about 82,500 miles on it now so I can ride out the HPFP issue without problem until then (manufacturer warranty extension), plus the DPF issue (purchased extended warranty coverage). I'm hoping that by May 2018, the ration is as IndigoBlueWagon feels it is now - would make me feel a lot better getting the fix done.
 

93celicaconv

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May 22, 2013
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
Turned in my 2010 Jetta TDI Cup Edition to VW, DSG, Nav, Sunroof / Replaced with a 2015 Passat TDI SEL Premium
I agree, that makes no sense to me. They were doing EGR/DPF delete tunes before, but now suddenly they won't put it back to factory? Certainly the "cheating" cars run cleaner than one with no EGR or DPF at all! At least my scientific nose thinks so, LOL. :p
Just for reference, I believe the delete tunes are advertised for "off-road only" now. So maybe they will reverse the effects of the fix as long as they are advertised for "off-road use only." Time will tell. I don't think most tuners have had a chance to digest the Gen 1 2.0L TDI fix changes yet.
 

dubStrom

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2003 A4 Jetta (sold), 2010 JSW (sold), 2013 Passat 6MT traded for 2014 JSW with 6MT-TOTALED in November 2016, 2003 ALH 5MT conversion (sold), wheezing 2015 GSW/DSG and a new 2021 Tacoma Access Cab 4x4 p'up
Anecdotal evidence, is not evidence.

Lets see a before/after dyno. A before/after timed/video'd 0-60 run.
Before/after mpg (with many tanks and miles to establish a real trend).

People believe that a louder car is a faster car. The butt-dyno and placebo effect give all kinds of wrong answers when it comes to modifying cars.
I have never really used all of the power and torque that my TDIs make. It's the mid-range torque level while getting exceptional fuel economy that I like(d). I am driving no differently, and look at my fuelly link below.:eek:

I notice that my old wrecked 2014 could maintain better mpg, EVEN WHILE ACCELERATING, and EASILY MAINTAIN SPEED WITH WELL OVER 40 MPG in the city. The gallons used, versus miles driven are pretty irrefutable. It just happens to be obvious on the live mpg monitoring, as well.

I never drove this 2015 GOLF Wagon before it was modified, but it sucks fuel while accelerating, and can't maintain speeds with 40+ mpg the way my 2014 did. It sucks. THIS IS NOT ANECDOTAL!

So I am faced with spending lots of money on garage work (delete... DPF?) and an expensive tune, just to get the 40+ mpg I thought I would get?
 
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BarnyardsTDI

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2010 Golf w/DSG, Malone Stage 2 (all emissions intact), HID's, Sunroof, Dynaudio, NAV
what to do after neutered..been reading that some cars are really ruined after mod.. what are our options to fix this?.. according to the description from VW this should not be this bad...loss of power and really dropped mpg's...I have an appointment for my 2011 6mt next week and am seriously concerned that my car will be ruined...:mad:..where do we draw the line where the fix does more negative results than VW says it will do..e.g. 4-6 loss of mpg...10-25% loss of power? what will be enough loss that it is unacceptable?? Where/when will we say, or draw a line and say "this is not what is supposed to happen//you have ruined my car..this IS unacceptable"
Use some of the money from VW to tune your car. You can keep all emissions intact and go stage 2 from Malone. This may void the extended warranty so mod at your own risk.

The only real gripe about the fix so far for me is that my DSG shifts a little later than I was used to during the first 150,000 miles of the cars life. I can easily fix that with a Malone DSG tune. See my review of the fix in the "Completed fix thread".
 

Owain@malonetuning

Associate Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Location
Vancouver
TDI
PD jetta wagon
Just for reference, I believe the delete tunes are advertised for "off-road only" now. So maybe they will reverse the effects of the fix as long as they are advertised for "off-road use only." Time will tell. I don't think most tuners have had a chance to digest the Gen 1 2.0L TDI fix changes yet.
Been tuning them without issue since last week, probably have to update the odd flashzilla. Nothing too crazy on the surface map wise, haven't dug into the emissions changes that much.

We don't modify the emissions components unless they're removed entirely. So DPF regen frequency, low EGR control etc will all be left how VW set them. DPFs are very delicate so we'd rather not experiment with that, at least not yet. Sample size, climate variations and long term testing would be needed and we're not huge on testing files on the public.

VW faced some hefty files for tampering with emissions components so it wouldn't be wise to reverse an update that they were required to release. Same goes with force-passing readiness monitors for those with deletes. They've cast a large spot light and we'd rather not be dragged through the dirt with them. Plus, where the fun in a stock power tune anyway? :p
 
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forrest resto`s

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Jul 8, 2007
Location
athens ga.
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2000 jetta tdi auto rc2 2013 passat tdi 2015 passat tdi auto 2011 jetta tdi nav. s'roof..man. dpf delete 1970 GTO JUDGE 520 HP
Been tuning them without issue since last week, probably have to update the odd flashzilla. Nothing too crazy on the surface map wise, haven't dug into the emissions changes that much.

We don't modify the emissions components unless they're removed entirely. So DPF regen frequency, low EGR control etc will all be left how VW set them. DPFs are very delicate so we'd rather not experiment with that, at least not yet. Sample size, climate variations and long term testing would be needed and we're not huge on testing files on the public.

VW faced some hefty files for tampering with emissions components so it wouldn't be wise to reverse an update that they were required to release. Same goes with force-passing readiness monitors for those with deletes. They've cast a large spot light and we'd rather not be dragged through the dirt with them. Plus, where the fun in a stock power tune anyway? :p
I'm not clear on one thing.. as far as yours and kerma..and other tuners do you have a tune that can be reversed to stock so we may keep our warranty from the fix?.. like my 2011 jetta 6mt? Thanx.. I would be more than happy to go that route and get the fix and a tune after if possible..just would like to not lose that warranty.. also a downloadable tune/detune thru obd port here at home...if possible
 
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Lightflyer1

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Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
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2015 Beetle tdi dsg
So you want to cheat like VW did and then hide the fact and not get caught. If you value the warranty leave the car alone. If you want the tune then take all that comes with it. Just because you can/may get away with something doesn't make it right. I have nothing against the tune but with those who are willing to cheat to get their way. Don't stand on the fence, pick a side and stay there.
 

jdyno718

Veteran Member
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Sep 23, 2015
Location
Colorado
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2012 VW Passat SE Manual
For those who care:

I just drove my unfixed 2012 manual Passat compared to a fixed 2015 manual Passat and the loss of power was definitely noticeable. I realize that I am comparing a Gen 2 to a Gen 3, but the torque on the fixed Gen 3 was nothing compared to my Gen 2.

My Gen 2 is stock and felt peppy and sporty it has the ability to throw you in your seat. The Gen 3 was laggy and slow.

Glad I am doing the buyback and not waiting for a Gen 2 fix for the manuals. If I waited the money would definitely be going to a tune to unfix it.
 

Owain@malonetuning

Associate Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Location
Vancouver
TDI
PD jetta wagon
I'm not clear on one thing.. as far as yours and kerma..and other tuners do you have a tune that can be reversed to stock so we may keep our warranty from the fix?.. like my 2011 jetta 6mt? Thanx.. I would be more than happy to go that route and get the fix and a tune after if possible..just would like to not lose that warranty.. also a downloadable tune/detune thru obd port here at home...if possible
All tunes are detectable, regardless of how you tune it. If it's a major concern it'd be best to leave the vehicle alone. It's fairly rare that VW will make a fuss about it and flag cars, but it can happen.


We will not be offering to revert cars back to the "cheat" software. If you want more power, we offer performance tunes.
 

tadawson

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Jun 14, 2013
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Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
Not manuals, but we have a fixed 2015, and unfixed (for the moment) 2013 Passats . . .

I can't tell any difference in power . . . throttle/pedal response seems smoother on the 2015, but that's about it . . .
 

Lightflyer1

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Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
For those who care:

I just drove my unfixed 2012 manual Passat compared to a fixed 2015 manual Passat and the loss of power was definitely noticeable. I realize that I am comparing a Gen 2 to a Gen 3, but the torque on the fixed Gen 3 was nothing compared to my Gen 2.

My Gen 2 is stock and felt peppy and sporty it has the ability to throw you in your seat. The Gen 3 was laggy and slow.

Glad I am doing the buyback and not waiting for a Gen 2 fix for the manuals. If I waited the money would definitely be going to a tune to unfix it.
I had a 2013 Passat tdi and it never had the ability to "throw you in your seat". Bad choice of words maybe. It would accelerate smartly as does the new left over 2015 Beetle I just bought.
 

forrest resto`s

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Jul 8, 2007
Location
athens ga.
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2000 jetta tdi auto rc2 2013 passat tdi 2015 passat tdi auto 2011 jetta tdi nav. s'roof..man. dpf delete 1970 GTO JUDGE 520 HP
So you want to cheat like VW did and then hide the fact and not get caught. If you value the warranty leave the car alone. If you want the tune then take all that comes with it. Just because you can/may get away with something doesn't make it right. I have nothing against the tune but with those who are willing to cheat to get their way. Don't stand on the fence, pick a side and stay there.
What's not right is ruining my car..You must have missed my previous post...if the fix makes my car a slug and drops mpg's alot.. Your darn right I will get a tune..and I feel I have every right to do that...amen! all I want is my car to behave like it was when I bought it new.. that is why I bought it:D>>and if I can reverse it to save warranty.. yey!
 

Lightflyer1

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Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
It didn't ruin your car, just some things changed, and you were notified that the changes were expected to impact these areas. If you aren't happy take it back and tell them something is wrong and let them fix it. If not that sell it back and be done with it. Or tune it and keep it that way. All I object to is those who would lie about it after the fact to force VW to keep the warranty on the car for repairs. It isn't reversing it, it is cheating and trying not to get caught at it. But go ahead and be a big fat liar if you want to.
 

Rico567

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Jun 13, 2003
Location
Central IL
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL Premium (Turned in 7/7/18)
so you guys that are saying get the tune after.. this presents a problem if true..but then again.. they were doing their tunes before all this diesel gate stuff...
I'm would think altering the federal mandated emissions programs somewhat before would be questionable.. right? What's the difference?
I have read all your posts in this thread, and I think you are a candidate for the buyback, not the fix. Whatever losses are involved with the car, sounds like they're going to stick in your craw as long as you drive it. If not the buyback, then maybe you're one of that group (I suspect a rather small one) that should just do nothing, and drive on.
 

Kevinski4

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Aug 31, 2007
Location
Nebraska
TDI
.
So first everyone is angry that VW "cheated", and now that VW fixed it, they are angry that they themselves can't cheat? Got it.
 
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