Group III vs Group IV (PAO) Basestocks in the TDI Engine

TooSlick

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Suggested Reading:

SAE Paper # 2002-01-2678

"Formulation Effects in a Severe Passenger Car Diesel Engine Test"

This paper compares the performance of Group III and PAO based synthetic oils in the TDI engine, specifically with regards to piston deposits and ring sticking. It also addresses the issue of variability in Group III basestocks and their performance in the VW "T-4" engine test, which is part of the VW 502 specification.

A very interesting read that clarifies why most if not all of the VW 506 oils in Europe are 0w-30, PAO based products.

TS
 

Natureboy

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
Suggested Reading:

SAE Paper # 2002-01-2678

"Formulation Effects in a Severe Passenger Car Diesel Engine Test"

This paper compares the performance of Group III and PAO based synthetic oils in the TDI engine, specifically with regards to piston deposits and ring sticking. It also addresses the issue of variability in Group III basestocks and their performance in the VW "T-4" engine test, which is part of the VW 502 specification.

A very interesting read that clarifies why most if not all of the VW 506 oils in Europe are 0w-30, PAO based products.

TS
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">TS,
How do I get ahold of this? Am I good at flaunting my ignorance or what?

NB
 

dieseldorf

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Ted, why not demonstrate a little xmas gererosity and share with us the key points??...as you see them, of course!

HO HO HO.
 
S

SkyPup

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heh heh heh, I sent TwoSlick the SAE link for the paper. Looks like SynLube PAO is the ONLY way to go with a TDI after all, BAR NONE
......
 

Georgeseq

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Synlube is also spelled Delvac 1. It is also called "real" synthetic vs. Group III wannabees.. I am anxious to hear GeWilli's comments on the report....
George
 

SoTxBill

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its not the base, its the additives!!
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how bout posting the one where the ran a fleet of cabs with the same additives,,, but only chagned the base.. they ran pao vrs group III...

the purpose of the test was to show the difference between the two bases,, with the additives being exactly the same...

there are several tests like that that have been run.. and these type test dont sell oil,, they are to scientifically develop to gather true performance of the oils so that changes can be made...... not to show in a specialized test that my dog is bigger that yours.. hell i've got a toaster that does 0 to 60 in 6 seconds...

why do you pick only the tests you want??
 

GeWilli

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I've got it printed out and will digest it . . . and comment in a bit


First Comment is So what? Whats the big deal? This paper says kinda what we know already . . .

The bone I have with this is that it doesn't identify more chemically the differences between the variablity and what leads to the failures.

Looking at their 4 test oils, the Group IV 0W-30, the Group III/IV 5W-30, and the Group IV 0W-40 and the Group III/IV 5W-40 I think it becomes hard to determine anything more than a comparison to those very specific formulations.

The low polymer oils (lower visc modifier meaning the 0W-30 and 5W-30 oils) did much better. And that is as expected. The additive choices clearly are just as important as base stock.

The one thing that is clear is there were 2 Group III 5W-30 oils that peformed perfectly in the tests (these are off the shelf not blended for the tests like the ohter oils).

So what can we get out of it?

Well not much IMO.

The Petro Canada 0W-30 oil I am using is a Group III/IV blend, and the wear metals are very similar to the results I've gotten with a Group IV/V blend 0W-30 so I would feel reasonably comfortable saying that the oil is doing its job.

I've run a compression check a while ago and it was over 500 PSI across the board - no loss of compression - nearly as high as some xW-40 oils tested. That was between 80 and 90,000 miles on the ODO. so quite a few hours running the Group III/IV blend.

Yes Group III quality is variable. Hence my desire to avoid group III oils coming from anywhere other than Petro Canada's refineries. And my reluctance to reccomend Rotella T 5W-40 synthetic.

My other question I have from reading this paper is what does adding a Group V oil to the PAO do to the results? I know of only a very few PAO only oils on the market and they are there only (my guess) for limited (very) markets and are very low production batch oils.

What does this mean for the TDI? Well they ran a bunch of tests - and killed a boat load of TDI engines to write a short 7 page paper
with little meaning for the North American market


But it does questions quite significantly the intelligence of running a high polymer treat oil (PAO or Group III). 5W-40 doesn't look like a very good viscosity. So I might join Tbill in saying if you are down somewhere warm and can't grasp that a 0 or 5W-30 is perfectly acceptable irregardless of ambient temps (to run in the TDI) then run a 15W-40, not a 5W-40.

I'd also wager that 300,000 miles in Delvac-1 vs a sister engine run 300,000 miles with Amsoil Series 3000, will demonstrate significantly higher piston ring deposits and much MUCH lower merit scores. I would also feel confident that anyone running the Amsoil 10W-40 will see increased piston ring deposits over either the Series 3000, or Series 2000 0W-30 or even the 15W-40 HD oil.

As it was written here many moons ago by someone who had more to give and less to snipe about (at that time) 0W-30 is ideal for the Garret Turbo and with this evidence a 0w-30 or 5W-30 properly formulated oil is better for the rest of the engine.

(all opinions expressed in this post are mine, I have no connection to any monetary rewards from sales of oil or oil related products. These are opions, some based on more than others but that is it. take is for what it is and deal with it
)

[ December 14, 2002, 09:20: Message edited by: GeWilli ]
 

GeWilli

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Originally posted by SoTxBill:
how bout posting the one where the ran a fleet of cabs with the same additives,,, but only chagned the base.. they ran pao vrs group III...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If that is the report I've read they found that the ideal oil for reduced wear and highest fuel economy was a group III/IV blend! the group III/IV blend beat out even the pure IV oil!
 

smokin'

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A friend of mine works for a national mechanical operations/repair chain. He said that they have recently switched from pure synthetic lubes to mixed synthetic-blends for most applications. He said that in-house testing, and field results, supported that the blends were providing the best of both worlds. I guess there are some things that petroleum can do better than a poly. Of course for the extremes, synth is the way to go.
 

eidie2

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I'm not used to reading SAE papers, so I have a few questions.

What are they saying in the piston cleanliness section? That the 40W oils could not do the test, the test is flawed, the oil failed, why did they "abort the test" on the 40Ws? They are clearly higher early on, but he PAO 40W is dropping fast, but they cut it off at 36 hrs too.

Next question
Why do they not call out the names of the dispersents X,Y, and Z. Does anyone have a good enough grasp of the properties of dispersents to see if they are saying what Z is, and since it appears they recommend against a heavy usuage of it in our oil.

About the same test. Why did they only perform this with group 3 oils, why not group 4.

I am just a little lost by it. I gathered from the artile that lighter PAO oils have a better affect on piston cleanliness, and are significantly better than the industry standard oil 15W-40 and even better than 0W-40 PAOs. Did I miss something?

[ December 15, 2002, 15:52: Message edited by: eidie2 ]
 
S

SkyPup

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I don't believe this paper, anyone who destroys a dozen TDIs testing various combinations of lubricants and is NOT a member of the TDI Club cannot be for real.
 

AndyH

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how bout posting the one where the ran a fleet of cabs with the same additives,,, but only chagned the base.. they ran pao vrs group III...

the purpose of the test was to show the difference between the two bases,, with the additives being exactly the same...

there are several tests like that that have been run.. and these type test dont sell oil,, they are to scientifically develop to gather true performance of the oils so that changes can be made...... not to show in a specialized test that my dog is bigger that yours.. hell i've got a toaster that does 0 to 60 in 6 seconds...

why do you pick only the tests you want??
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">TexasBill -- I don't bloody drive a taxi cab. Therefore, I don't care what the lube requirements of a taxi cab are. Do you know of any TDI Taxis in the US?

TooSlick and SkyPup: THANK YOU for posting info on this SAE paper. There aren't enough hours in the day to keep up with everything -- Thanks for keeping your eyes open for things like this that apply directly to the cars we drive and love!

TexasBill -- I HATE Delo. I don't drive a Cummins or something with a dog on the front that beats my kidneys to death. I think it's sad that you can't help the group with your experience instead of playing a single song over and over and over... Just my opinion. Your mileage (and piston rings) may vary. Void where prohibited.

Andy
 

spoilsport

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Originally posted by smokin':
BTW, who makes a decent Group III/IV blend?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Isn't the Petro Canada stuff a group III/IV blend ?
 

TooSlick

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Dieseldorf,

I can distill the essence of this paper down to four salient points.

1) PAO based synthetics did a significantly better job than Group III oils in reducing ring sticking and high temp piston deposits in actual TDI test engines.

2) Narrow range synthetics, ie, a 0w-30 did a better job in preventing ring sticking and piston deposits than did a wide range synthetic - in the case of this paper a 0w-40. The difference is that the 0w-40 contains about 50% more VI modifier -ie, polymer - some of this polymer degrades at high temps and contributes to ring sticking and deposits.

3) After reading this paper, if I was using a 5w-40 Group III synthetic in the TDI, I would make sure it specifically passes both the ACEA "B4" and VW 502/505 engine tests. One such oil that comes to mind is the oft criticized 5w-40 Castrol Syntec. Note: The ACEA "B3" test series does NOT include testing in TDI engines, only the "B4" series does.

4) There is a wide range of Group III basestocks, in terms of actual engine performance. So if you switch to another brand of Group III oil, you may not get the same performance.

The reason why they use the term PAO and not PAO/Ester is that Group III oils also typically contain 10%-15% ester. What you do with a Group III is replace the PAO portion of the basestock - which is 80%-90% by volume - with Group III. So the real comparison is between PAO/Ester and Group III/Ester.

TS
 

dieseldorf

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
Dieseldorf,

I can distill the essence of this paper down to four salient points.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ted, I really like that and excellent summary. Now, of the broad varieties of oil available to us (in America), do we have access to any oil that meets this tightly-defined criteria - - Amsoil or otherwise??

thanks again.
 

TooSlick

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DieselDorf,

I'd say any PAO/Ester based, synthetic diesel oil is going to perform very well, in terms of minimizing ring sticking and piston deposits. As a general rule, I think it's a good idea to avoid the very wide range, 0w-40 or 5w-50 grades, simply because they use more polymer in the formulation. So I'd prefer a 5w-40/10w-40 to a 0w-40 and a 15w-50 to a 5w-50, if those were the only grades to choose from.

If you're really curious download the paper for $10.00 from www.SAE.org and print out a copy. I think the conclusions they reached are very easy to understand.
 

dieseldorf

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
So I'd prefer a 5w-40/10w-40 to a 0w-40 and a 15w-50 to a 5w-50, if those were the only grades to choose from.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">well, what about GeWilli's personal favorite: PC Duron 0W - 30?? Does that fit into this formulation, in your opinion?

Also, how long is that paper? I really should devote more time to reading for work instead of more "car stuff".


thanks
 

TooSlick

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The TDI engine used in the ACEA B4 tests is the 90 hp version that is sold in North America. As far as I know, even the newer ACEA B5 tests still use the older TDI engine, since the test results are well characterized and they have a considerable database of previous test results.

Diesel Dorf,

Four different formulations were compared in this SAE paper: 5w-30 and 5w-40, Group III/PAO blends and 0w-30/0w-40, PAO based synthetics. The PAO based, 0w-30 performed the best in terms of minimizing ring sticking and piston deposits. The 5w-40, Group III/PAO blend performed the worst in these catagories. Both the PAO based synthetics performed significantly better than either of the Group III/PAO blends.

It is necessary to blend in a minimum of 20%-30% PAO into some of these Group III oils in order to meet some of the newer OEM European specs, like Mercedes 229.5, BMW "Longlife", Porsche factory fill and VW 503/506. It is also necessary to blend in some PAO in order to formulate the 0w-30 and 0w-40 grades. The Petro Canada 0w-30 does have some PAO, along with the Group III basestock - precisely for this reason. The low temp "viscometrics" of Group III basestocks generally aren't good enough to make 0w-xx grade products....
 

dieseldorf

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Originally posted by TooSlick:

Four different formulations were compared in this SAE paper: 5w-30 and 5w-40, Group III/PAO blends and 0w-30/0w-40, PAO based synthetics. The PAO based, 0w-30 performed the best in terms of minimizing ring sticking and piston deposits. The 5w-40, Group III/PAO blend performed the worst in these catagories.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ted, they never mention the mfgs. of the various oils tested?? Can an expert, such as yourself, determine specifically what products were used.

thanks, Ted.
 

TooSlick

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Dieseldorf,

I really haven't got a clue, but since this paper was written by a British company that formulates oil additive "packages", I would not be surprised if these were products not available in the US.

The primary intent of this paper was to evaluate Group III and PAO based oils in a more generic sense, in terms of how the different basestocks affected the level of piston deposits. A secondary goal was to isolate the effect of different VI modifier, "treat" levels and the effect it would have on these deposits.
 

dieseldorf

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
Dieseldorf,

I really haven't got a clue, but since this paper was written by a British company that formulates oil additive "packages", I would not be surprised if these were products not available in the US.

The primary intent of this paper was to evaluate Group III and PAO based oils in a more generic sense, in terms of how the different basestocks affected the level of piston deposits. A secondary goal was to isolate the effect of different VI modifier, "treat" levels and the effect it would have on these deposits.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OIC. So this paper may be relevant to "us" but there may be little we can do to take action based upon our limited choices meeting VW's criteria.


Ted, I am not trying to put you in a difficult position and I understand your commerical interest here. With what you have learned from this paper, what oil available to us in NA is best suited for our TDIs, in your opinion? Are there any that meet the criteria?

Thank you.
 

TooSlick

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Dieseldorf,

I must be getting completely incoherent in my old age, I thought my previous comments were pretty clear....

Strictly from the standpoint of minimizing ring sticking and piston deposits and nothing else, the results of this paper would indicate that a "narrow range", PAO/Ester synthetic would work best. A narrow range synthetic would be something like a 10w-30 or 15w-40 grade. The further you deviate from this, say to a 0w-40/5w-50, the higher the level of piston deposits and/or ring sticking - all things being equal. So I think VW's recommendation to run a 5w-40 or 5w-30 synthetic oil year round makes perfect sense. VW/Audi are trying to maximize their corporate fuel efficiency numbers, hence they are recommending the thinnest oils they can get by with and still get acceptable engine life.

Ideally, VW/Audi would like to recommend 0w-30 or 0w-40 for maximum fuel efficiency, but it might result in slightly higher levels of piston deposits, so 5w-30/5w-40 is the best viscosity compromise they could come up with ....

[ December 16, 2002, 17:15: Message edited by: TooSlick ]
 

dieseldorf

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
Strictly from the standpoint of minimizing ring sticking and piston deposits and nothing else, the results of this paper would indicate that a "narrow range", PAO/Ester synthetic would work best. A narrow range synthetic would be something like a 10w-30 or 15w-40 grade. The further you deviate from this, say to a 0w-40/5w-50, the higher the level of piston deposits and/or ring sticking - all things being equal.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ted, I am comfortable with your comment on weight attributes. My question: I am not clear what oils are PAO/blends and otherwise. For example, is an oil like PC Duron (5w 40 or 0W 30) characterized as a blend?

Thanks (again)
 

Dr. Dotgain

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The best oil is a blend of Gr III & Gr IV, right? I need 4.75 quarts for an oil change. The first qt will be Syntec 5w40 from the VW parts counter @ $7 to meet the manufacturer's 501/505 spec and ACEA B4. The second quart will be Rotella T 5w40 from WalMart @ $3.33 to offset the cost of the first qt & to meet CH-4. The third quart will be Delvac-1 0w30 for cold-flow during that early winter morning start up. I want to reduce the Noank 13% volatility of the Rotella, so a qt of Amsoil 3000 should do. Now I'll need a liitle more than a half quart of Mobil-1 0w30, and I can put that in again @ 5,000 miles because it'll be useless by then anyway. The engine will enjoy it more then; it'll be like a quaff of crisp Berncastler, and should give my TDI a taste of the old country that it is missing so much because I can't get any UltraLow sulphur here in the States, not even any Amoco Premium here in the NorthEast..

Now, is e\X/erybody HAPPY?
 
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