DPF cleaning

Rk2012tdi

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2012 Sportwagen
My 2012 Sport Wagen is in the shop for the second time in as many weeks. Replaced the EGR cooler, dash lit up like a Christmas tree. Now they say they have to replace the DPF. All under the emissions extended warranty. They of course went through the driving habits of owning a diesel but would not tell me outright how many miles, at what speed and RPM I should drive it to clean the DPF.
Does anyone have any info on this subject that VW for some reason is so secretive about?
 

Lightflyer1

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There are no hard and fast rules for this. It depends on at least several variables to initiate a regen. There is an app called Vag DPF, with that and android phone/tablet and an OBDII adapter you can monitor dpf regen status and see when one is about to happen. This would allow you to not shut down and keep driving until completed, if you so choose.

Are you short tripping the car a lot?
 

Rk2012tdi

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Thank you for the reply. Yes we are frequently short tripping right now. My daughter is driving it to high school and back and occasionly into town. It Hasn't always been that way but she can't drive the truck. I have decided to take it on the interstate on weekends and hopefully that will help.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
DPFs do not like short trips.

Sounds crazy, but tell your daughter to run it out the highway for an hour once a week. :p
 

Lightflyer1

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You need to get that app and OBDII dongle I spoke of above. Use it to monitor your regens. When soot mass calculated gets to 24 (IIRC) it will regen. Drive it around until it finishes. If you do this it will solve your issues. Just driving it around with no knowledge of when it will happen will just waste time and fuel.

The app
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.applagapp.vagdpf&hl=en

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaEt7hGeVAA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKxPy9Ry7Wc

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=484050&highlight=vagdpf

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=481647&highlight=vagdpf

Cheap OBDII
https://www.walmart.com/ip/MINI-Sca...1964&wl11=online&wl12=491392947&wl13=&veh=sem

Real OBDII
https://www.scantool.net/scan-tools/smart-phone/

Mine regens about every 240 miles with urban driving. Knowledge will set you free!
 
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Windex

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Think about heavy trucks of yesteryear.

They would blow visible smoke when accelerating, not so much when running steady down the interstate.

Your CR Jetta does the same, it's just that the DPF traps the soot. Regens burn the soot down to ash, but even that takes up space in a DPF that will eventually be full to the point where a regen won't help.

As Oilhammer said, DPFs don't like short trips - they fill up with soot faster and will eventually fill to the point of needing to be replaced.
 

Lightflyer1

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If regens are happening and actively managed the soot accumulation can be burned off with little to no issue. It will take some time for enough ash to accumulate to cause an issue. DPF's don't like short trips but if managed properly it should be a non issue. Actively manage the regens and your short trip issues will go away I am sure. oilhammers info is lacking and generally won't work without a lot of wasted time and fuel.
 
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Mongler98

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TLDR version

a few hard pulls once a week is all you need if you are only doing mostly short trips. Its all about heating up the catalysts
 

Lightflyer1

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I would disagree with that. A few hard pulls once a week will not do anything to the soot buildup. It needs to do a complete regen when called for. A full regen takes 10 to 15 minutes at temperature (1100F +/-). You think 30 or so seconds of momentary heat will do the same? I think not.
 

Mongler98

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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
I would disagree with that. A few hard pulls once a week will not do anything to the soot buildup. It needs to do a complete regen when called for. A full regen takes 10 to 15 minutes at temperature (1100F +/-). You think 30 or so seconds of momentary heat will do the same? I think not.

I should easily define a hard pull as any temperature above 1,000F and more like a long mountain pass. was not talking about a regen, just normal driving. Your right about the regen for sure. When i say hard pull on my car, its 1300 to 1450 for about 10 minutes on a race track lol.

Just another reason why Diesel engines now days are just soo poor in cost savings vs the old ones. Im glad i stuck with my AHU. i will never buy a new gen
 

meerschm

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it should need a ten or fifteen mile drive at highway speeds (over 50 mph)(stopping for lights once in a while is ok) to finish a regeneration. call it 15 minutes.

the car will want to do one every couple hundred miles.

the car should also let you know by lighting up the DPF light if it needs one, and has not had a chance to complete one. and this has to be followed by the drive suggested. if you skip this, it is new DPF time.

in general, any light that shows up on the dashboard needs attention as soon as possible. you have to understand what is going on, and then can be advised if remedial action can be postponed.
 

meerschm

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... I have decided to take it on the interstate on weekends and hopefully that will help.

as long as this is a 15 minute trip or more you should be in great shape.

once a month may be enough...
 

Lightflyer1

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as long as this is a 15 minute trip or more you should be in great shape.

once a month may be enough...
Again I disagree with this statement. A fifteen minute drive down the interstate when not in regen mode will not burn off the soot. I have preached enough. Let the OP decide what he wants to do and deal with the results.
 

UhOh

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I only have one vehicle with a DPF, a tractor (2016). If it's running long and warm/hot there are less passive regens happening: more complete combustion, less soot. The system monitors flows through the DPF looking for increased pressure. When the programmed pressure trigger point is encountered the system will trigger a regen. Regens are managed differently in different systems, I don't know how VAG does them, but my tractor utilizes injected fuel into the DPF. In most cases running the RPMs at least at 1,800 should happen during a passive regen (can keep operating as long as RPMs are kept up). There's also a more hardcore forced regen, either triggered manually or commanded by the system- one completely stops the tractor, sets RPM to idle and allows the computer to run through the cycle (it'll command varied engine speeds as it burns the soot in the DPF). It's easier to do the regens on a tractor because there's both an engine speed control and a travel speed control- one can run the engine speed up w/o really affecting travel speed (generally speaking).

Just for a data point, using my only reference, my tractor, I've had ONE forced regen over the period of 260 hours, which, if I used my cars' average MPH of 41 would roughly equate to at least 10k miles.
 
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oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
If regens are happening and actively managed the soot accumulation can be burned off with little to no issue. It will take some time for enough ash to accumulate to cause an issue. DPF's don't like short trips but if managed properly it should be a non issue. Actively manage the regens and your short trip issues will go away I am sure. oilhammers info is lacking and generally won't work without a lot of wasted time and fuel.

I am pretty sure I have a good handle on how DPFs work, thanks. I helped write the diesel ASE test questions, I am not exactly ignorant of the systems. ;)

Asking someone to go around watching a bunch of data points to watch DPF regen status is not going to happen with most of the motoring population, especially a teenager, whom probably in her mind has much more pressing things to do. "Sorry, coach, I will be late for volleyball practice, I have to go drive my car RIGHT NOW to complete a DPF regen, be back in 20 minutes or so. Hopefully there is no traffic and my EGTs will stay up!" Yeah, no. Sorry, not going to happen.

And a DPF regen IS a "waste of fuel" and if we all ran around catering to the needs of the car's emissions systems, there would also be a lot of "wasted time".

For most people, the occasional 20-30 minute highway trip periodically will be sufficient. That is why they use that wording in the owner's manual. Nowhere does it say "Go buy a 3rd party data viewer, Velcro it to your steering column, and do XYZ or else." I get that as car nerds, we (I include myself in this category) tend to skew everything to the side of caution and the car, but the fact of the matter is most of the motoring public is NOT a car nerd, and they just want a nice frugal car to drive. Given the fact that stopped up DPFs on VAG products are very rare (must be, because I have only ever had to replace ONE due to this, and I have taken care of a LOT of these cars since new), the setup must work just fine most of the time for most people, most of which do not drive and schedule their lives around their car's emissions control system's needs and desires.

The OP's case is obviously not falling into the banner of normalcy and therefor he and his daughter may have to decide on either a regimen of driving style/data monitoring that the car likes OR get a different non-DPF car ( or delete this one) instead.
 
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UhOh

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Brian, yeah, does ANYONE factor in the costs associated with that extra fuel (and we know that MPGs are also negatively impacted), manpower (energy in the form of food) required to develop and build these emissions systems (not sure what levels of maintenance are required as compared to less intrusive emissions systems)?

Heck, the materials and time used to clean an EGR valve and intake on the ALHs aren't trivial. These should be included on the other side of the balance sheet, the "negative" side. And, how much fuel is wasted due to decreased performance? No idea whether things balance or tip one side or the other: nature tends to push for balance, in which case this would suggest it all netting out to even, meaning that the bottom line tells us it's all but make-work and we're only kidding ourselves that we're doing ourselves any net "positive."
 

Lightflyer1

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I never said you didn't have a "good handle" on how dpf's work, only that the info you provided was lacking.

The app only has to be checked every now and then, like every other evening until a known time frame is found. After that you will have some idea as to how often a regen will occur given the driving scenario stated. The father can do this and the regen drive as needed, leaving the daughter out of the picture. No real need to constantly monitor the app.

Why not monitor the app as needed, so you know when you need to make that drive instead of just making it and not knowing if anything happened or not? It has to be better for all concerned to let the car do its thing when needed.

The car will "waste" some amount of fuel doing a regen no matter what anyone does (not including a delete). The waste I was speaking of was just driving around hoping for a regen that may or may not happen.

1. Use the app to get an idea of when regens occur.
2. Check every now and then to see if it is time.
3. When it is close take that drive you mention until regen is completed.

From studying my 2013 Passat they seem to use a minuscule amount of fuel for regens anyway.

The OP's case is falling where VW refused to sell tdi's on some island as the place was so small they wouldn't ever regen without active owner participation. That is what I am recommending here. Active owner participation.
 

meerschm

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Again I disagree with this statement. A fifteen minute drive down the interstate when not in regen mode will not burn off the soot. I have preached enough. Let the OP decide what he wants to do and deal with the results.

but a fifteen minute drive when the car knows it needs a regen is enough time to warm up the car and complete a regeneration.

it is not long enough to run the DeSOX cycle, but that is for the NOX cat, and not the DPF.

if it is ten below zero, it might take a little longer, but most of the time not.
 

Lightflyer1

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But for that to happen you would have to know when it needs to regen to know when to take that 15 minute drive. Which is why I have been advocating using the app to tell them this. Just taking a 15 minute drive without knowing it is ready is just a waste.
 

meerschm

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But for that to happen you would have to know when it needs to regen to know when to take that 15 minute drive. Which is why I have been advocating using the app to tell them this. Just taking a 15 minute drive without knowing it is ready is just a waste.

that is one way.

but the car will tell you it needs, and has not been able, to complete a DPF regeneration.

that is why they program the engine control computer to light up the dpf indicator on the instrument panel at an estimated soot quantity that allows some leeway before the soot estimate is too high to run a regeneration.

http://www.natef.org/NATEF/media/NATEFMedia/VW Files/2-0-TDI-SSP.pdf

as indicated on page 65 above:

the car decides to run a dpf regeneration when the soot estimate is around 18 grams. the light is indicated at 24 grams. service is required (for a technician-induced regeneration) over 40. if it gets to 45, time for a new DPF.


so the OP could instruct the daughter to watch and report the first DPF light, and then take the car for the longer drive within a few days.

adding an extra drive may be a waste (I always enjoy a nice drive, but to each his own), but it could be compared with the cost and effort to add instrumentation capable of monitoring the soot levels.

but choosing the car as an option from several vehicles on a regular basis is just good management, as the original poster is likely to pay closer attention to this and other items that may need attention before they become expensive items.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Yep, EPA compliance dictates the DPF indicator come on for any time the regen attempts under the current operational parameters have failed.

In the Sprinter manual, it just states "if the light comes on, drive on the highway for 20 minutes or until the light goes out". I think the VAG products say something similar.

They shot down manual regen "buttons" as standard equipment, though. Some trucks and vans get them as an option.

I know there are already a lot of threads surrounding this topic now, but I would like to point out that this scenario is a case where a cheap used EV would/could be of benefit. No need to worry about range, teenage son or daughter isn't supposed to be going far anyway. It is probably less concern to plug the car in every night (they already do that with the personal cellular communicator they are always staring at anyway) than it would be to check the oil and refill it with fuel, plus the charging can be overseen by parents or guardians at home, not at some seedy gas station. And there will be zero problems with short trips, since that's all the EV can do anyway. Keep the TDI for weekend trips to sporting tournaments, or whatever. You can find used Leafs and 500es for pretty cheap now. Cheap enough that if you only have it for a couple years and it becomes a boat anchor, who cares, you will still likely be in the black anyway.
 
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UhOh

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An EV would be like a leash on your kid!:D

I'm all about the right tool for the job. I once had a very short commute and I only used a bicycle (for 5 straight years, no matter the weather -think RAIN here!-, no matter what; only missed one trip because I was in a hurry and couldn't locate the key to my storage where I would park the bicycle). I now have longer commutes (so does wife), so the ALH TDI is the tool of choice.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I think this is where EVs will make their biggest headway. Not that they are specifically any better, but that the ICE cars are getting worse, and that if people are simply unwilling to just buy an older simpler sturdier less fragile car (like an ALH powered one, but there are certainly loads of others) then what?

Having to jump through hoops for special operational parameters for an ICE powered car is just not going to fly. Maybe in the 1920s, where you had to work throttle, timing, clutch, etc. to just start the engines (assuming you even had the luxury of an electric starter), and you could barely drive it for a month without something breaking. But today? People just want to put fuel in it and drive it.

Sadly, particle filters will be coming on gasoline fueled cars soon. Plus, the DI turbo gas engines on the market are already not the most robust for a lot of conditions, short trips in cold weather being one of them.

When I lived in the city so long ago, my old IDI non-turbo VAG diesels got lots of short trips. They never minded. They were noisy, slow, smelly, and could be a bit difficult to start in the extreme cold. But at least I never had to worry about a 1 mile trip once a day, every day for a month or two at a time, doing any major "harm" to the engine.
 

Rk2012tdi

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Scan tool choicr

Lightflyer, thanks for all the info. Would you recommend getting the real scanner, basically you get what you pay for, and whether to get the LX or MX. Or is the cheap Wal-Mart brand enough?
 

Lightflyer1

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I bought 3 of the cheap ones and all failed or didn't work after some time. Others have had good luck with them. Hit or miss. Try one cheap one first. I have the real one with no issues what so ever and it is faster and more dependable. The app will come on just before 24 when a normal regen is due. I got the MX but for this purpose I don't think it matters which one. Both would work. I like the idea of being able to check and see when a regen is getting close. You can tell this from the soot or by miles since last regen (if you check for some time first). I don't want to wait till the idiot light comes on.
 
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Rk2012tdi

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Hey Ligjtflyer or anyone. I received my OBDLink adapter and downloaded the app. Where do i find the eng code so I set up the app correctly? Thank you in advance.
 

Lightflyer1

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IdParts site is a good place to check for this as it tells you when you input your car details. CBEA/CJAA Consider them when needing to order as well. Good stuff, good prices, good info and they support this site. I have been a happy customer of theirs for some time. Not affiliated in any other way though.
 

Rk2012tdi

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I tried all all codes, no connection. I contacted the developer to se if he can add my code. See what happens, was really looking forward to it.
 
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