NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

bhtooefr

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So, the emissions control systems can easily handle biodiesel (and in pickup truck applications, B20 is allowed.)

Have there been any studies on B20 and B100's effect on the lubrication oil in through-the-engine post-injection systems?
 

GTIDan

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Dan-
The suggestion was to use up to 5% biodiesel. Nothing you shared from the other site would contradict that.
Someone once told me that if gasoline can kill you why drink even a spoonful? My point is if damage can be done with B20 or more why use any. Do we really know the longterm outcome with the CR motor? I don't think so but than again I could be wrong.

For me I'm sticking with no additives and no bio for now. Will see what happpens.
:)

Dan
 

tditom

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I think this applies here:
Fear, uncertainty and doubt, frequently abbreviated as FUD, is a tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations,[1][2] politics and propaganda. FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence public perception by disseminating negative and dubious/false information designed to undermine the credibility of their beliefs. An individual firm, for example, might use FUD to invite unfavorable opinions and speculation about a competitor's product; to increase the general estimation of switching costs among current customers; or to maintain leverage over a current business partner who could potentially become a rival.
The term originated to describe disinformation tactics in the computer hardware industry and has since been used more broadly.[3] FUD is a manifestation of the appeal to fear.
 

oxford_guy

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Someone once told me that if gasoline can kill you why drink even a spoonful? My point is if damage can be done with B20 or more why use any. Do we really know the longterm outcome with the CR motor? I don't think so but than again I could be wrong.

For me I'm sticking with no additives and no bio for now. Will see what happpens.
:)

Dan
I think your point is a good one but you're missing two things:

1. Improved lubricity vs. biodiesel risks.
2. VW has apparently studied the issue and determined that B5 and lower will not cause oil dilution that is significant enough to be a concern -- as long as oil changes are done at recommended intervals.

If all the #2 fuel in the US had a 460 or below wear scar rating, then I agree with you that avoiding biodiesel altogether makes good sense. Unfortunately, our wear scar standard exceeds the level recommended by Bosch and an engine manufacturers' association.

tditom has shared some information in the past that says 1% biodiesel (generally?) is adequate to get to 460 or better lubricity. So, the argument against B5 probably has some credibility. Why use B5 instead of limiting oneself to B2 or B1?
 

GTIDan

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I think your point is a good one but you're missing two things:

1. Improved lubricity vs. biodiesel risks.
2. VW has apparently studied the issue and determined that B5 and lower will not cause oil dilution that is significant enough to be a concern -- as long as oil changes are done at recommended intervals.

If all the #2 fuel in the US had a 460 or below wear scar rating, then I agree with you that avoiding biodiesel altogether makes good sense. Unfortunately, our wear scar standard exceeds the level recommended by Bosch and an engine manufacturers' association.

tditom has shared some information in the past that says 1% biodiesel (generally?) is adequate to get to 460 or better lubricity. So, the argument against B5 probably has some credibility. Why use B5 instead of limiting oneself to B2 or B1?
Just curious here..................what engine manufacturers' association?

76 stations here in California have a scar rating of 480 or less according to information I received from them. ARCO and Shell have also said their fuel has a scar rating of well under 520........but wouldn't say by how much.

I agree that 460 would be nice but one would think (VW in this case) they would know what the rating is and act accordingly.

Have a good one......... time will tell us what the truth really is.

:)
 

oxford_guy

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Just curious here..................what engine manufacturers' association?
It's called Engine Manufacturers' Association, or EMA. It's not a very creative name. It's referenced by quite a few additive-making companies:

Google for engine, manufacturers, association, wear, scar, lubricity

Their website and publications.

Member companies:

AGCO Corporation
American Honda Motor Company, Inc.
Briggs & Stratton Corporation
Caterpillar Inc.
Chrysler Group LLC
Cummins Inc.
Daimler Trucks North America LLC
Deere & Company
DEUTZ Corporation
Dresser Waukesha
Fiat Powertrain Technologies S.p.A.
Ford Motor Company
General Motors Company
Hino Motors, Ltd.
Isuzu Manufacturing Services of America, Inc.
Kohler Company
Komatsu Ltd.
Kubota Engine America Corporation
Navistar, Inc.
Onan - Cummins Power Generation
PACCAR Inc
Scania CV AB
Tognum America, Inc.
Volkswagen of America, Inc.
Volvo Powertrain Corporation
Wärtsilä North America, Inc.
Yamaha Motor Corporation
Yanmar America Corporation
their 2005 paper said:
Cetane.

Using ASTM D 613, ULSD fuel should have a minimum cetane number of 43. Although ASTM D975 currently requires a minimum cetane number of 40, EMA has asked ASTM to revise the standard to require a minimum cetane number of 43. EMA and its members believe such an increase will improve the sociability aspects of diesel fuel performance, such as white smoke, engine starting and engine combustion noise.

Lubricity.

Regardless of the fuel sulfur level, ASTM D975 currently requires lubricity specified as a maximum wear scar diameter of 520 micrometers using the HFRR test method (ASTM D6079) at a temperature of 60C. Based on testing conducted on ULSD fuels, however, fuel injection equipment manufacturers have required that ULSD fuels have a maximum wear scar diameter of 460 micrometers. EMA recommends that the lubricity specification be consistent with the fuel injection equipment manufacturers recommendation.
I agree that 460 would be nice but one would think (VW in this case) they would know what the rating is and act accordingly.
VW sanctions up to 5% biodiesel, so the same point you made about wear scar applies to that, eh?
 

eddif

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Listening to all this just leads me to a single thought on using Biodiesel. You have to lower the OCI in relation to how much Biodiesel you use.

The other thought is. No matter how many people complain, there are other additives.

eddif
 

wxman

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...Have there been any studies on B20 and B100's effect on the lubrication oil in through-the-engine post-injection systems?
NREL did a study in 2009 of B20 oil dilution impacts on light-duty diesel vehicles...

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/npbf/pdfs/44833.pdf

From conclusion...

...There were no obvious biodiesel specific effects on used lube oil properties, and most changes appeared to be consistent with normal lube oil aging. Based on a comparison of TBN and TAN, oil service life was never exceeded in these tests. Despite these biodiesel oil dilution levels, no impacts were observed on the performance of the engine or the emission control systems....

...no biodiesel-related wear and engine mechanics deterioration were found after the hardware was exposed to an accelerated aging protocol of twice the engine’s useful life....
 

CedarPark68

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Listening to all this just leads me to a single thought on using Biodiesel. You have to lower the OCI in relation to how much Biodiesel you use.

eddif
Agree 100%!!!!!!

The information available on this topic is absolute. Mann has notes to their customers to take care when adopting Biodiesel re: hypercleaning, algae and fuel dilution.

Chevron has a report that notes that the amount of Biodiesel that ends up in the oil sump accumulates as it does not burn off.

Almost all current model UOAs show little fuel dilution, however it is of interest that almost all who show fuel dilution involve Biodiesel.

The report linked above shows 2X fuel dilution when using Biodiesel vs. diesel!!!!!

As eddif stated, shorten your OCI if you use Biodiesel.
 
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bhtooefr

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Except, that report also said that the lubrication properties weren't affected, and that the engine was not worn excessively due to the biodiesel even to twice the engine's useful life.

So, in other words, what that study is saying is that there is dilution, but it doesn't matter.
 

tditom

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...and at "additive" levels (up to 5% biodiesel) you can stick with a 10K mi OCI, so no negative impact at all.
 

bhtooefr

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Actually, skimming through that, they even took things out to 20,000 mile OCIs, on their test engine (which I believe is a Mercedes engine).
 

GTIDan

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I guess than it all boils down to risk.

Do you wanna or don't ya use bio?

Sooner or later some absolutes will surface and will be posted here.

If one of the major oil retailers offered B1-B5 around my neck of the woods I would try it. But from an independent...........no way.

:)
 

aja8888

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I guess than it all boils down to risk.

Do you wanna or don't ya use bio?

Sooner or later some absolutes will surface and will be posted here.

If one of the major oil retailers offered B1-B5 around my neck of the woods I would try it. But from an independent...........no way.

:)
Why don't you get yourself some nice ASTM grade Bio and blend it in? I have been doing that for years now. There is a small refiner up in Bakersfield that makes it.
 

eddif

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NREL did a study in 2009 of B20 oil dilution impacts on light-duty diesel vehicles...

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/npbf/pdfs/44833.pdf

From conclusion...
They think a diesel engine should only last 120,000 miles. The amount of dilution was only 8%.

I do not know if I would even want to consider any test that did not hope to see at least 300,000 miles as a reasonable expected lifetime (then the double mileage would be 600,000 miles).

What about 30% dilution if regeneration pushed it that high?

eddif
 

bhtooefr

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Well, to be fair, with modern engines, 120,000 miles probably is a reasonable expected lifetime, with the absurdly high EGTs that the engines see during regen, and how expensive the rest of the car around the engine is.
 

tcp_ip_dude

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Well, to be fair, with modern engines, 120,000 miles probably is a reasonable expected lifetime, with the absurdly high EGTs that the engines see during regen, and how expensive the rest of the car around the engine is.
The engine doesn't see "absurdly high" EGT during a regen, the "high" temps are only present in the DPF and downstream exhaust system. This can easily be seen by monitoring the pre-turbo EGT's using VAG-COM, the pre-turbo temps are pretty typical.
 
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wxman

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They think a diesel engine should only last 120,000 miles. The amount of dilution was only 8%.

I do not know if I would even want to consider any test that did not hope to see at least 300,000 miles as a reasonable expected lifetime (then the double mileage would be 600,000 miles)....
According to the paper I linked...

...ENGINE COMPONENT IMPACTS

After the completion of the durability tests for the NAC and the SCR system, the engine had undergone an accelerated aging schedule representative of twice its useful life, or approximately 240,000 miles. At the conclusion of the project, the engine was disassembled and each component was carefully analyzed. All moving parts such as bearings, pistons, and piston rings were inspected and measured. None of the components of the engine, including the injectors, showed signs of excessive wear or other signs of deterioration as a result of the extended biodiesel operation. The flow characteristics of the injectors remained comparable to levels noted before the start of the durability study....
(Page 7 - Emphasis mine)

...What about 30% dilution if regeneration pushed it that high?
VW states that they can "tolerate up to 50 percent fuel mix in the oil but no more". However, VW also states that based on their tests, B5 showed 45% oil dilution @ 10K miles, while B10 surpassed the 50% dilution limit @ 10K miles (http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articles/2290/understanding-the-post-injection-problem). So there's quite a discrepancy between the VW and NREL tests as far as the rate of oil dilution is concerned.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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According to the paper I linked...

VW states that they can "tolerate up to 50 percent fuel mix in the oil but no more". However, VW also states that based on their tests, B5 showed 45% oil dilution @ 10K miles, while B10 surpassed the 50% dilution limit @ 10K miles (http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articles/2290/understanding-the-post-injection-problem). So there's quite a discrepancy between the VW and NREL tests as far as the rate of oil dilution is concerned.
Let's do a reality check on VW's numbers.

10,000 miles @ 40 mpg = 250 gallons of B5
Bio in 250 gallons of B5 = 12.5 gallons
45% Bio dilution in 4 liters oil = 0.48 gallons of B100

Active regens in 10k miles = 10000/300 = 33
Post injection fuel used = 0.5 gallons (conservative estimate)
Total fuel used for active regen = 0.5*33 = 16.5 gallons
Fuel economy penalty = 16.5/250 = 6.6% (reasonable)
Bio in 16.5 gallons of B5 = 0.82 gallons

So, I do not believe that about 50% of the post injection biodiesel of 0.82 gallons could end up in the oil over 10k miles assuming normal fuel dilution might be around 5%. I put my money on the NREL 8% number being closer to the dilution than 45% that was quoted in that bio magazine article. Also, wouldn't the oil sump now be significantly overfilled if dilution of biodiesel was 45% - given that the volatiles in the oil are likely less than 10%.
 

DEZLBOY

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Well, to be fair, with modern engines, 120,000 miles probably is a reasonable expected lifetime, with the absurdly high EGTs that the engines see during regen, and how expensive the rest of the car around the engine is.
FWIW: I'm expecting my engine would get 300K miles if "the rest of the car's" expenses don't warrant a new car. So, far my only high cost (outside of normal maintenance) has been the fuel pump and repairing wires chewed by a squirrel. :rolleyes:
 

kjclow

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However Dezlboy, your car is not a CR with a DPF.

From Plus 3 Golfer's post:
Active regens in 10k miles = 10000/300 = 33
Post injection fuel used = 0.5 gallons (conservative estimate)
Total fuel used for active regen = 0.5*33 = 16.5 gallons
Fuel economy penalty = 16.5/250 = 6.6% (reasonable)


I have a hard time believing that 10,000 miles of driving will result in consumption of a full tank of fuel. Where did these usage estimates come from?
 

ronaldleemhuis

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However Dezlboy, your car is not a CR with a DPF.

From Plus 3 Golfer's post:
Active regens in 10k miles = 10000/300 = 33
Post injection fuel used = 0.5 gallons (conservative estimate)
Total fuel used for active regen = 0.5*33 = 16.5 gallons
Fuel economy penalty = 16.5/250 = 6.6% (reasonable)


I have a hard time believing that 10,000 miles of driving will result in consumption of a full tank of fuel. Where did these usage estimates come from?
My 2010 Jetta TDI seems to do a DPF regeneration every 180 miles or so, typically during a 7 mile trip to or from work. Regeneration almost always starts and finishes within that 7 mile trip. I have not noticed any significant difference in the trip mileage on those days where the regeneration is taking place. (I can identify regeneration by rough running of engine and rise of idle to 1000 RPM, and I have confirmed this method of identification by using VCDS and by noting the occasional incomplete regeneration at shutdown.)
 

ronaldleemhuis

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According to the paper I linked...

(Page 7 - Emphasis mine)



VW states that they can "tolerate up to 50 percent fuel mix in the oil but no more". However, VW also states that based on their tests, B5 showed 45% oil dilution @ 10K miles, while B10 surpassed the 50% dilution limit @ 10K miles (http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articles/2290/understanding-the-post-injection-problem). So there's quite a discrepancy between the VW and NREL tests as far as the rate of oil dilution is concerned.

I wonder whether VW did the test on a bench with post-combustion injection occurring 100% of the time, not the more typical 10 minutes or so out of 4-5 hrs in actual road use.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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However Dezlboy, your car is not a CR with a DPF.

From Plus 3 Golfer's post:
Active regens in 10k miles = 10000/300 = 33
Post injection fuel used = 0.5 gallons (conservative estimate)
Total fuel used for active regen = 0.5*33 = 16.5 gallons
Fuel economy penalty = 16.5/250 = 6.6% (reasonable)


I have a hard time believing that 10,000 miles of driving will result in consumption of a full tank of fuel. Where did these usage estimates come from?
I agree and hence why I don't believe VW's 45% fuel dilution.

My calculation is a reasonability check on VW's 45% fuel dilution using B5. The 0.5 gallons is very conservative (giving VW the benefit of the doubt). I've seen studies on larger truck engines where the post injection was IIRC like 20 minutes and the use was about 0.5 gallons.

What I can tell you is that based on my MFD instaneous mpg data, that during an active regen of about 15 minutes or so, my instantaneous mpg drops about 25% which I've estimated to be less than 0.1 gallons of fuel used. Also, my miles between regens are generally higher than the 300 miles. So, yes I don't think a CR engine will use 16.5 gallons of fuel during 10k miles doing regens.

Anyways, the point in the reasonability check is to show that the 45% fuel dilution appears way too high based on a conservative (meaning using a high number to give VW the benefit of doubt) amount of bio post injected, that supposedly doesn't vaporize, sticks to the cylinder walls, and gets into the oil.

I believe the 8% dilution in the NREL study is closer to the truth than the 45% quoted in the biomagazine article.:D
 

bhtooefr

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FWIW: I'm expecting my engine would get 300K miles if "the rest of the car's" expenses don't warrant a new car. So, far my only high cost (outside of normal maintenance) has been the fuel pump and repairing wires chewed by a squirrel. :rolleyes:
And a Mk4 is not a modern car.
 

bhtooefr

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You can't be serious.
That makes engine longevity all the more important, certainly not less.
What it means is that the period in which maintaining the rest of the car makes sense is going to be shorter for most people - instead, they'll just buy another car, and send their 10 year old car to the junkyard.

Me, I bought a 12 year old car, and would like to run it for another 10 years. I don't think that can be economically done with a new car.
 

eddif

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The math is getting interesting. How is the 45% accomplished without draining some of the crankcase oil off. Seems that the oil level should be high if almost half of the crankcase oil were biodiesel / biodiesel D2 mix. I wonder if the 45% should actually be 4.5%. There seems to be a mistake in math somewhere. I have made goofs before and we just need to know what is going on.

eddif
 

oxford_guy

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What it means is that the period in which maintaining the rest of the car makes sense is going to be shorter for most people - instead, they'll just buy another car, and send their 10 year old car to the junkyard.
You think planned obsolescence is being sped up by car makers so they can sell more vehicles?

There have been a good number of unreliable vehicles produced in the past, and some reliable ones as well.
Me, I bought a 12 year old car, and would like to run it for another 10 years. I don't think that can be economically done with a new car.
If cars today, indeed, are only good for 120,000 miles, then that's completely unacceptable for people who aren't rich.

Personally, I think it depends upon the car model as it always has.
 

kjclow

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When I was growing up, you did not want to own a car with over 100K miles on it. Espicalliy living in the mid-west salt belt. You ran that many miles and you knew that the underbody and frame members were being held together with rust. That's also where the "highway" miles versus "city" miles came from.
 
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