Racing / auto crossing TDIs

Petra's cousin

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 13, 2016
Location
Calgary
TDI
Mk VI TDI Golf Wagon
More or less. It kinda depended on if it was during a set of runs or if it was after a long break. This year I now have a pyrometer and I'm going to try adjusting pressure based on that feedback.
Stephen
Thanks. Looking forward to getting the wagon out (although it looks like a rainy weekend right now).

John
 

3L3M3NT

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Location
Sturgeon Bay, WI
TDI
04 Jetta GLS TDI, 04 RTDI
Do High Performance Driving Experiences (HPDE) count? If they do, I've done one so far and looking to do more this summer. I attend the HPDE that is offered through http://www.mvptracktime.com/index.html the one I went to was at Road America and had a great time even though I was the passenger. I was able to get some video from the track too, so I'll add a link for that.
I ran my Jetta for that event and for the upcoming ones, I'll be using the RTDI that I picked up a couple of years ago and will finally have ready this summer.
Here's a link to that build.http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=442967

The Jetta "build thread" http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=265112

The videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujc-FFUiyXs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiztH8626og

If you're in the Mid West I'm planning on being at the July 16th track day for those that may be interested in also attending.
 

Petra's cousin

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 13, 2016
Location
Calgary
TDI
Mk VI TDI Golf Wagon
Thanks. Looking forward to getting the wagon out (although it looks like a rainy weekend right now).
John
Two autocross sessions today with 4 runs in each session - started with the tires at 43 front/41 rear (cold) and did the first four runs to get the feel for the car. Bumped them up after lunch, found them running around 45 hot for three of the tires (driver's rear was around 43 and cooler than the other tires), need to run more pressure in the fronts based on the chalking I did, rears were fine.
Loved how well the car rotated with just a rear GTI bar and trail braking, also loved the torque coming out of the corners - it was easy enough to hammer the throttle as soon as I saw my line open up and have the car pull me through.
Had lots of hooting and hollering from the course workers in one section, guess I was lifting the inside tire off the ground (hence the cold driver's rear tire, lots of fast left-handers in today's course). I hope the photographer got some good shots of me with the back wheel in the air, I may just have to pay for one or two of his shots!
Overall, I improved ~3 seconds over the first set, then another 3 seconds on the second set (but there was a minor course change for the second set which made the left-handers much much faster), but still slow as molasses (near the bottom of the RAW times before the novices joined in the afternoon) and there's no point in comparing PAX times as my 235's pushed me into FSP with the 911 near the top of the standings.
All in all, it was great fun. Tomorrow, back in the Miata with my wife where we are only slightly more competitive in STS with a mostly unprepared car. If they end up running autocross into October/November after we put the Miata away, I'll definitely drag my wagon back out again for some more fun.
John
 

shepner

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Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Location
Milwaukee, WI
TDI
2015 Golf TDI
The wheel lift comment above reminded me that a corner worker got a video of me doing that.
On a related note, and if anyone cares to watch, Ive been recording video of my races and posting the best runs on YouTube. I like to think Im improving.
Its interesting how much difference speed and track surface makes for understeer. In the parking lot stuff, the best I can hope for is to make the back end rotate. But with HSAX, the rear doesnt slide all and the front can aggressively turn. That was a tad disconcerting the first time it happened. On the plus side, it got me to stop breaking hard in a turn :p
stephen
 

Petra's cousin

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 13, 2016
Location
Calgary
TDI
Mk VI TDI Golf Wagon
The wheel lift comment above reminded me that a corner worker got a video of me doing that.
On a related note, and if anyone cares to watch, Ive been recording video of my races and posting the best runs on YouTube. I like to think Im improving.
Its interesting how much difference speed and track surface makes for understeer. In the parking lot stuff, the best I can hope for is to make the back end rotate. But with HSAX, the rear doesnt slide all and the front can aggressively turn. That was a tad disconcerting the first time it happened. On the plus side, it got me to stop breaking hard in a turn :p
stephen
Thanks for the video - now think wagon instead of hatch with the back wheel in the air!

Yesterday, there was a civic and a mini doing the three wheel dance - the mini wasn't as consistent with lifting but the old civic hatch on bridgestones was easily lifting all the way around my corner then he actually got the inside wheel to stop rotating during braking into the next fast corner.

First thing i noticed on Saturday was how quiet it was auto crossing our TDI - there is no engine noise feedback like there is in our Miata when you rev it up in second gear. Then yesterday, there was a TDI hatch running in the first run group (while I was working one of the corners) and it was near silent as it went by (one guy asked if it was an electric car!).
 

adjat84th

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Location
Virginia Beach, VA
TDI
'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
Just registered for the remainder of the year with our local club, TSCC. I've no idea what class I'll be in (guessing street touring or modified) with my '15 Golf.
It's got VWR lowering springs on stock size wheels/tires (but Enkei PF01s), and running a Peloquin LSD with turbo-back exhaust and tune.
Looking forward to my first attempt, I'm sure it will be interesting!
 

chaoscreature

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Location
vista, ca
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI Special Edition
First thing i noticed on Saturday was how quiet it was auto crossing our TDI - there is no engine noise feedback like there is in our Miata when you rev it up in second gear. Then yesterday, there was a TDI hatch running in the first run group (while I was working one of the corners) and it was near silent as it went by (one guy asked if it was an electric car!).
The TDI's are too quiet! I can't hear my engine when at the track with the windows down, which makes shifting a little trickier. I find myself quickly glancing at the tachometer more than I would like.

Adjat84th,
You will have a blast! Don't worry about classes or lap times, just focus on your driving lines and being smooth. You will have a blast!
 

shepner

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Location
Milwaukee, WI
TDI
2015 Golf TDI
The TDI's are too quiet! I can't hear my engine when at the track with the windows down, which makes shifting a little trickier. I find myself quickly glancing at the tachometer more than I would like.
I've been using Harry's Lap Timer and an OBD2 reader. That combo can flash the screen as an upshift indicator among other things. However over time I find I don't really need that so much anymore and mostly go by feel. Tho the notice was nice on long straightaways so I could judge if I was going to run out of RPMs before needing the brakes

Stephen
 

Petra's cousin

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 13, 2016
Location
Calgary
TDI
Mk VI TDI Golf Wagon
I've been using Harry's Lap Timer and an OBD2 reader. That combo can flash the screen as an upshift indicator among other things. However over time I find I don't really need that so much anymore and mostly go by feel. Tho the notice was nice on long straightaways so I could judge if I was going to run out of RPMs before needing the brakes
Stephen
Agreed, if I don't hit the rev limiter (unlikely on Autocross, but I definitely hit it a couple times during our winter driving course on lake ice), I usually shift when I run out of acceleration jam.

John
 

shepner

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Location
Milwaukee, WI
TDI
2015 Golf TDI
So here is one for the group: Yesterday was my first HSAX event. It started off with 3 20min HPDX sessions followed by 5 HSAX runs in the afternoon. The morning was fine but in the afternoon, I noticed that my times were getting consistently getting around .5sec slower each run. Aside from the first timed lap which I screwed up, I felt I was otherwise fairly consistent in my driving. Could the intercooler getting too hot account for this? The brakes were also steadily fading throughout the day. Would the increased stopping distance cause it? Something else?

stephen
 

3L3M3NT

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Location
Sturgeon Bay, WI
TDI
04 Jetta GLS TDI, 04 RTDI
So here is one for the group: Yesterday was my first HSAX event. It started off with 3 20min HPDX sessions followed by 5 HSAX runs in the afternoon. The morning was fine but in the afternoon, I noticed that my times were getting consistently getting around .5sec slower each run. Aside from the first timed lap which I screwed up, I felt I was otherwise fairly consistent in my driving. Could the intercooler getting too hot account for this? The brakes were also steadily fading throughout the day. Would the increased stopping distance cause it? Something else?

stephen
Depending on how long you had between runs, then heat soak is a definite possibility. Have you upgraded to a better brake fluid? That can make a difference like you mentioned how your brakes were fading as the day went on. If you haven't upgraded to a better brake pad, that would be another thing to look into. Sometimes it's the little things that make a big difference.;)
 

shepner

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Location
Milwaukee, WI
TDI
2015 Golf TDI
I run ATE Type 200. It's not as good as the Motul RBf 660 but it's a fraction of the cost. More likely the fade was from OEM rotors/pads and really aggressive braking on a track that is known for being rough on the brakes. This weekend I'll see if there's anything left.

I was doing some comparison of the data I captured. Unfortunately the high speed GPS chose to not talk to the phone for the afternoon so it was a bit difficult to directly compare all of the turns. But I think it was a pile of little things. Braking appear to be a bit less, acceleration was a bit less, and more importantly driver errors were generally getting worse. So most likely it's because I was getting tired :rolleyes:

Stephen
 

dsldubn

Active member
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Location
VT
TDI
'82 Rabbit with 1Z swap
I race hillclimbs with my '82 rabbit with a 1Z tdi swap. I run a malone tune, Holset turbo, and a pile of other stuff. Car does pretty well for what it is. In a sea of gassers, I've placed 2nd in class for the year twice

 

dieselherb1

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Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Location
Va.
TDI
06 MK5,09 Mk5 CR,03 Mk4,96,2-97 B4s,98 A3,2000 A4,4 Caddies( 2-1.6TD,1.6,TDI) Chevys 6.2,6.5,6.5TD
Have you been to the track up here in Thornburg(right off I95} lots of turns 2.5 mile track maybe 100-150mph straight. Had dub delievence here that year.
 

REDNECKDZL

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Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Location
Omemee
TDI
2001 Jetta, 2015 Jetta, 1984 Wabbit TD, 1986 RX7 waiting on AHU swap
What ya running for a holset? find it boost quick enough?

I race hillclimbs with my '82 rabbit with a 1Z tdi swap. I run a malone tune, Holset turbo, and a pile of other stuff. Car does pretty well for what it is. In a sea of gassers, I've placed 2nd in class for the year twice

 

WrEkkED

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Location
Toronto
TDI
'04 TDI Sport
I want to try a few track days and have a few questions. What size tires do you guys run? I have 8" wheels and was goin to stick with 225 pss. Other than a rear sway bar anything else that's needed to push the car?

Car: koni coils, gtb2260 maxed out stock BEW injectors, stock intercooler, cermaic rear pads, tt bushings, parts in hand going on the car this weekend, h2sport spindles, gli front brakes, ground control camber/caster adjustable mounts.
 

shepner

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Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Location
Milwaukee, WI
TDI
2015 Golf TDI
Not sure what the limits are on a Mk4 but on my Mk7, I am currently running 225/45/17 RE-71R tires on Enkei Fujin 17x7.5 rims with a bit of extra offset. Ill be switching to 245/45/17 when these wear out. I have heard its possible to cram 255 width in there but there might be a risk of tire rub at steering lock

stephen
 

shepner

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Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Location
Milwaukee, WI
TDI
2015 Golf TDI
Realized I forgot to answer the rest of your message... :rolleyes:

Other than a rear sway bar anything else that's needed to push the car?
Depends. Here, the MK7 GTI running at the top of the pro class doesnt have a swaybar. He just jacks up the rear pressure. Some of the other VW guys (who arent slow either) from the Chicago area dont even do that. I did some research and installed a rear swaybar on mine. Just DONT do that in the middle of the season. It will take a while to re-learn the car.

Better, especially if your novice, just drive what you got and go have fun.

stephen
 

3L3M3NT

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Location
Sturgeon Bay, WI
TDI
04 Jetta GLS TDI, 04 RTDI
I want to try a few track days and have a few questions. What size tires do you guys run? I have 8" wheels and was goin to stick with 225 pss. Other than a rear sway bar anything else that's needed to push the car?
Car: koni coils, gtb2260 maxed out stock BEW injectors, stock intercooler, cermaic rear pads, tt bushings, parts in hand going on the car this weekend, h2sport spindles, gli front brakes, ground control camber/caster adjustable mounts.
Are you planning on doing more track days or Autocross?

Either way you'll wanna make sure you have a good set of brake pads and run higher boiling point brake fluid. Like shepner mentioned running a 245/40/17 is about the biggest tire I'd risk running on the car to make sure you clear the fender and strut on the inside in the front. You may wanna look into getting your front fenders rolled if you plan on running a wider tire if you are running your coilovers in their lowest setting.
With the wider tire you'll wanna run a 200 rated treadwear tire to put the power to the ground without bumping you up to the next class if you're doing Autocross.

If you can afford it I'd recommend upgrading your stock BEW injectors for something that will allow you to take full advantage of that gtb turbo you have on your car. Gigger has a set of BEW injectors with +80% Firad nozzles on them that he bought from me when I went with +120% nozzles.

If you are going to be going to some road course events where you'll be out on the track for extended periods of time you may want to at least consider upgrading to an upgrade SMIC or go with a FMIC for maximum efficiency for cooling the air going to the engine. I went with a same side in/out to have the shortest piping run, plus imo the easiest way to run the piping. Like so

Like shepner mentioned, try to do your upgrades at the beginning of the season, so you aren't going to have to reacquaint yourself with the car after you change something. Otherwise good luck, have fun, and stay safe out there.
 

WrEkkED

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Location
Toronto
TDI
'04 TDI Sport
Ok great advice! Ya I would start with some track days at first. Will those 80% nozzles be enough or am I going to wish I did 100 or 120% down the road? I have stock sized rotors on the back but do have ceramic pads. The fronts will be getting slotted gli rotors and cermaic pads too and braided lines all around.
Any good fmic kits that arent a pain? I like darksides kit seems a bit pricey.
 

3L3M3NT

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Location
Sturgeon Bay, WI
TDI
04 Jetta GLS TDI, 04 RTDI
Ok great advice! Ya I would start with some track days at first. Will those 80% nozzles be enough or am I going to wish I did 100 or 120% down the road? I have stock sized rotors on the back but do have ceramic pads. The fronts will be getting slotted gli rotors and cermaic pads too and braided lines all around.
Any good fmic kits that arent a pain? I like darksides kit seems a bit pricey.
The +80% nozzles are good for 300bhp, which are probably good for 275whp give or take. So unless you have upgraded your engines internals you'd be asking for trouble running these injectors on a stock engine. You could install the injectors and let your tuner know that you have a stock bottom end and don't wanna push the engine too much since the stock bottom end is supposedly good for 200whp give or take. That way once you do upgrade your rods, pistons, and headbolts you can have your tuner increase the fueling of the injectors. For reference on Firad nozzles

Another upgrade you may want to make on your brake setup is to upgrade the rear brakes to balance out what you're doing out front. I went with the Eurospec 280x9 rear brake upgrade Like so I've been quite happy with the performance of the kit.
Here is a thread on TDIClub about the upgrade 280x9 rear brake upgrade

From there you can go to an even large solid rotor from ECS Tuning 308x9 kit

Then you can move up to a vented rotor setup that came on the 337/20th/GLI which is a 256x22 rotor setup Like so
You can save some money by sourcing those parts on your own.

If you really start getting into the track days you'll wanna upgrade from those ceramic pads to something oriented for the track, such as these Hawk HP Plus pads that will give you better braking performance.

You could always construct your own FMIC kit with a CX Racing intercooler and build your own piping.
Same Side In/Out
CXRacing Universal Intercooler
2.5" Inlet & Outlet
CXRacing Intercooler for 99-06 VW Golf MK4
CX Bolt on FMIC Kit for 1.9 TDI
IMO a same side in/out intercooler is the way to go to make routing the piping as easy as possible.
 
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WrEkkED

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Location
Toronto
TDI
'04 TDI Sport
Sweet great advice. I was going to go vented rears too but I just didnt want to spend the extra cash. I've spent my allowance :p I just want to go out and try it out and push the car a bit and not destroy my car in the meantime.

As for internals, I thought the BEW was safe to 250hp on stock rods etc? At what point is a Cam nessesary to keep EGTs low?
 

3L3M3NT

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Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Location
Sturgeon Bay, WI
TDI
04 Jetta GLS TDI, 04 RTDI
Sweet great advice. I was going to go vented rears too but I just didnt want to spend the extra cash. I've spent my allowance :p I just want to go out and try it out and push the car a bit and not destroy my car in the meantime.
As for internals, I thought the BEW was safe to 250hp on stock rods etc? At what point is a Cam nessesary to keep EGTs low?
I'm sure you can stay with your stock internals and make 250 whp, but imo you're going to be on borrowed time, since you are pushing 150% more power out of that engine.:eek:

200whp I believe is the safe limit for the stock internals to hold together and stay resonably reliable.

Here are a few threads worth reading on the subject.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=293784&highlight=safe+BEW+power
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=358439&highlight=safe+BEW+power
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=452722&highlight=safe+BEW+power

There is no clear cut time on when to upgrade your cam if you are looking to keep egt's in check. Some might argue to do it when you're getting really high egts. Others will argue to make upgrading your cam the last thing you do. Then you'll have to decide if you wanna go for a Stage II cam that is a drop in cam and doesn't require machining or new valves and springs. where a Stage III cam requires some machine of the head to allow for clearance of the greater lift of the cam and upgraded valve springs.

You'll have to do some research on when to do the cam and decide what route you wanna go.
 

REDNECKDZL

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Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Location
Omemee
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2001 Jetta, 2015 Jetta, 1984 Wabbit TD, 1986 RX7 waiting on AHU swap
Wrekked, if your around this weekend you should come to Durham College in Whitby, OMSC is holding an autox event, good way to get your feet wet and see how the car responds

We are running the event on Sunday
 

WrEkkED

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Location
Toronto
TDI
'04 TDI Sport
I'm going to pass this by the wifey and see if she will let me come out to play! Shes super pregnant so I don't push too hard on her haha. I'm just up the street in Brooklin.

Thanks for all the knowledge.
 

shepner

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Location
Milwaukee, WI
TDI
2015 Golf TDI
I find it funny when I take my car to the track and yesterday's HSAX event was especially so. My car is very obviously stock. Its quiet, doesnt smoke, and from the outside looks like its just cruising around (never mind that wheel in the air). On the rare occasions that people ask about the car, Im typically correcting them. No, its not a GTI. Its a TDI. I think most dont understand the difference. I now have a diesel magnet on the back as a hint. Needless to say I am often quickly dismissed and ignored by most other then the VW crowd. I usually gain attention at the end of the day when Im coming in at the top of my class. The Milwaukee Solo group has gotten used to me but at the end of the HSAX event yesterday was especially good because I produced a respectable time (1:34.519 at Blackhawk Farms) that was on par or better then some of the higher classes. I actually heard some "that was a diesel" chatter this time when I received my plaque. :)

stephen
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I haven't done a track day in a while, but here's IBW back in the day at Calabogie in Ontario, Canada. Great course, 24 turns, 22 of them blind, 19 decreasing radius. Challenging.

I had a 2-door Golf I used for a lot of track days, but IBW was my favorite. I finally retired it to street only after breaking a wheel hub at NHMS. Miraculously, I was able to drive it home with the axle nut holding everything together.

People never knew what to think of a diesel wagon with coilovers passing them in corners. Probably because I had so many miles in the car I was always comfortable with it on the track. And it was pretty quick: I remember getting better lap times than a tuned MKVI GTI at Mt. Tremblant. Good times.
 

WrEkkED

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Location
Toronto
TDI
'04 TDI Sport
It's funny, I was googling to find out if the mk4 platform tdi would ever make a good race car. Most started with them sayin they are never fast, and blah blah and someone always perked up where they say a dude in a blue diesel wagon was smoking them. Seems your a bit of a celebrity.

I was talkong to Giles the other day and he told me whatever I do stay off of mosport unless I want to buy a new car LoL
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
That's funny. I didn't know that.

For a couple seasons I'd take the rear seat and spare out of the car, had a Braille (12 lb) battery, and had it corner balanced, which was nearly impossible. Jetta Wagons weren't designed to be corner balanced, I learned. The car weighed 2,833 lbs. as shown. Being a GL with no sunroof and crank windows helped. And with 184/315 at the wheels it was pretty quick.

I only went to Mosport once, and it was in my '99.5 Golf TDI with a chip only. Kinda boring as the straight is very long and uphill. Evos were hitting 145 on that straight. I wasn't.
 
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