Transformer oil for fuel??

NaughtyVWGirl

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I have a friend who works for one of the public utility companies. He is wondering if waste transformer oil could be used to make biodiesel or burned in a WVO car? Anyone here know?
Thanks ;)
 

dieseldorf

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Hi, Girl. Sounds like experimentation there!

Don't stand behind the car when it's running ;)

Welcome aboard!
 

tditom

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I thought that stuff had nasty stuff in it like PCP?
 

weedeater

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Depends on where it comes from. Personally, I wouldn't do it unless I knew for sure what it was. some of that crap will kill you deader than a sack of hammers.
 

compu_85

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If you could confirm there were no nasties in the oil, I'd think it could be a good fuel, there wouldn't be as much crap in it as other WVO sources.

-Jason
 

aja8888

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Old electrical transformers and oil-filled switches had polychlorinated biphynls (PCBs) in them. So did some other hydraulic fluids used in hydraulic power systems. The main purpose was that PCBs make an oil fire retardant. They were found to be a carcinogen and have been known to cause deformaties in aquatic life (Lake Michigan fish, for example). They were banned in the mid 70's (or earlier, I believe) from being used.

Through the years, power companies and industry has gotten them out of the system by replacement. Most were incinerated in EPA approved incinerators like the one here in Deer Park, Texas (Rollins Environmental Services).

If you are going to use transformanr oil as a fuel, make sure it contains less than 50 PPM (parts per million) of PCBs. That is the number that EPA designated as "PCB free".:)
 

BioDiesel

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"power companies and industry has gotten them out of the system "

They missed a couple. :)
Two years ago a transformer leaked in our town's high school.
It had PCB's in the oil. Cleanup was estimated at 1/2 million dollars.
Burning that oil in a diesel would make you a pariah on the scale of the
captain of the Exx0n-Valdez
 

NaughtyVWGirl

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Thank you for the responses. I understand that their "toxic department" keeps a close eye on the PCBs. So does anyone have any further details about burning non-PCB mineral oil as a fuel?
 

DPM

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You'll be de-watering? One of the reasons for changing transformer oil is absorbed moisture; I used to service the Karl-Fischer equipment used by the local Utility to measure levels...
 

aja8888

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BioDiesel said:
"power companies and industry has gotten them out of the system "

They missed a couple. :)
Two years ago a transformer leaked in our town's high school.
It had PCB's in the oil. Cleanup was estimated at 1/2 million dollars.
Burning that oil in a diesel would make you a pariah on the scale of the
captain of the Exx0n-Valdez
When I worked for Anaconda in Ansonia, CT, we got rid of 25 or so PCB transformers. Yes, there are still lots of them out there.......:)
 

philngrayce

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BUt really, really look put for the PCBs. They're bad.
 

turbocharged798

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This is just a BAD idea due to the fact that the oil could possibly contain PCBs. You just do not know if it's mixed in or not.
 

aja8888

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The stuff is "fire retardant" as that is why it is used in transformers and hydraulic systems. So it contains some chemicals to render it fire retardant. Don't use it in high concentrations as it does contain chemicals that may be detrimental to pump seals, etc.

I am not a chemist, so I can't provide detail on it's chemical properties.
 

bluesmoker

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smketrny

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PCB's manufactured under trade names such as Arochlor, Askerel, Clorphen, Chlorextol, Chiorinol, Diachlor, Dykanol, Elemex, Eucarel, Fenchlor, Hyvol, Inerteen, Kanechlor, Noflamol, Phenoclor, Pyralene, Pyranol, Pyroclor, Santotherm, Sovtol, Therminol, etc

Just a few names to look for if you have to pick it up at the utility.

FWIW, it more than likely is safe, because EPA would not look at disposing anything above that 50ppm limit very lightly, and let someone just give it away.


Good luck.
 

bluesmoker

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define "safe"

the 50 ppm limit is strictly because of contamination of old transformers with pcb, they are refilled with "pcb free" but still contain toxic residues

this should not be used for fuel, period
 

aja8888

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PCB's manufactured under trade names such as Arochlor, Askerel, Clorphen, Chlorextol, Chiorinol, Diachlor, Dykanol, Elemex, Eucarel, Fenchlor, Hyvol, Inerteen, Kanechlor, Noflamol, Phenoclor, Pyralene, Pyranol, Pyroclor, Santotherm, Sovtol, Therminol, etc

Just a few names to look for if you have to pick it up at the utility.

FWIW, it more than likely is safe, because EPA would not look at disposing anything above that 50ppm limit very lightly, and let someone just give it away.


Good luck.
There are (or were) only three incinerators in the U.S. that are permitted to incinerate PCBs. Two are operated by Rollins Environmental Services (or now its parent). The incinerators (with afterburners) were required to destruct 99.9995 % of the PCBs. One incinerator is in Texas and one in Louisiana. I believe the third is in Alabama. I worked on one of those air emission permits in the late 1980s when PCBs were sent for incineration.

Not good for use in diesels, for sure.
 

smketrny

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There are (or were) only three incinerators in the U.S. that are permitted to incinerate PCBs. Two are operated by Rollins Environmental Services (or now its parent). The incinerators (with afterburners) were required to destruct 99.9995 % of the PCBs. One incinerator is in Texas and one in Louisiana. I believe the third is in Alabama. I worked on one of those air emission permits in the late 1980s when PCBs were sent for incineration.

Not good for use in diesels, for sure.

I was waiting for a reply from you. I had my doubts with the viscocity of the mineral oil, and a few other things. No doubt most PCB oils are secured of or incinerated, but nothing is foolproof.You have been in the field a long time, thanks for the heads up.
 

BKmetz

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Burning used transformer oil as an on or off-road fuel is illegal. If one gets caught taking transformer oil off site and using it as a fuel, well, I'd rather get caught using off-road diesel. That would be a slap on the wrist compared to getting caught using used transformer oil. Now I'll go into some of the details.

I've worked in the electrical generation business for over 30 years now. I work around transformers that are the size of a small dorm refrigerator to the size of a two story house. The really large ones hold over 5000 gallons of oil and have banks of recirculation pumps and coolers.

The new transformers use PCB free oil. Older transformers are flushed and the new oil is PCB free. BUT, there are thousands and thousands of old transformers out there that still have PCBs in them. The EPA made using PCB treated oils illegal in 1979, but that does not mean that overnight all the utilities went out and flushed or replaced its transformers. Replacing small transformers and flushing large ones is done on an as needed basis so there are still a lot of transformers out there with PCB treated oil.

The BASE oil would make a great fuel. The base oil is a highly refined hydrotreated very pure mineral oil that is high in naphthalenes. It would make an excellent solvent. However, there are still additives in that oil that I would be weary about burning in any engine. There are several different additives used for flame retardant, thermo-stability, and suppress aching and corona. Arching is the electrons jumping from one place to another, usually in air. Corona is when the surrounding gas around the arch is superheated and turns into plasma. This can also be a liquid (like an insulating oil) that boils into a vapor, and then that vapor gets superheated into a plasma. Some of these additives contain silicates, something you do not want in your engine.

The myth is that PCB free oil is safe to burn. The truth is that the additives used in place of PCBs are not safe and can cause any health problems PCBs can. An analogy is asbestos Vs rock-wool (a type of fiberglass). One is banned now and the other is not. Rock-wool will destroy your lungs as quick and easy as asbestos can.

Even though a transformer is a passive device and has no moving parts, they do age. The insulation between the coils slowly breaks down. Motoring is the usual stuff like thermocouples to measure temperature at several points. N2 gas blankets the transformer to prevent any air leakage.

Several of the large transformers use gas monitoring. If there is any arching inside the oil is designed to give off acetylene and other gases. These are tell-tale gases in which samples are taken and analyzed. If a transformer has excessive 'gassing' then an outage is scheduled to fix problems before there is catastrophic failure.

Used transformer oil would contain a large amount of contaminates. There is a very good reason the utility spent a lot of money to remove it. Chances are it will also be contaminated with PCBs. Most utilities store used PCB free oil in the same containers they use for oil with PCBs. Utilities dispose of transformer oil by burning it in special licensed incinerators. The main criteria being the incinerator is away from any population and it has to burn the oil at a temperature at least 2000F for a certain time period. Incinerator burners are simple low pressure atomizers and they give the oil plenty of time to burn off completely. A diesel engine does not.

Sooner or later someone is going to post they have done this and their engine runs great. The high naphthalene content will burn clean and the user might notice less soot, however, that does not mean there are not other nasty things coming out the exhaust pipe. The exhaust might have less soot, but it will have many other contaminates not found in diesel exhaust.

If one wants to know more, just type 'burning used transformer oil' in your favorite search engine. You will have plenty of reading to do.

As an aside, if you have utility poles with transformers mounted up there, those are 'wet' transformers that do contain oil. If you live in a more modern subdivision with underground electric service and you have those green transformer boxes humming at the end of the block, those are 'dry' transformers. There is no oil inside those.

Only plant oils are used for biodiesel and SVO/WVO.

I hope this dispels some of the misinformation.


:)
 
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BKmetz

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I hope you are trolling us....

:rolleyes:

Transformer oil works great!!
I've been running a 25% mixture of used transformer oil for a few months now (by the suggestion of someone who's been using it in his TDIs for years). I sent an 8oz sample to SD Myers for testing; showing it had less than 50 ppm PCBs.

At first, I was a little skeptical putting something other than diesel in my TDI. I started with 1 gal of oil to one tank and went up to 3.5 gal of oil to one tank. It makes a big difference as far as lubricity! My car, with 278,000 miles, runs MUCH smoother (less vibration). With this ULSD crap they're selling at the pump, my engine could use all the help it can get! I also let the barrel sit (sealed) for a few weeks and drained the water out of the bottom. Then I filtered it as I pumped it, just to make sure I pulled out all of the water.

If you have access to XFMR oil, I'd definitely use it!! I wish I would have started using it sooner! Just remember it's thicker and it could damage your injectors/pump if you put too much.

If you use more than 25%, let me know how it goes. I know 25% works and there's not really any reason to go any higher.
 

Jack Frost

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PCB's are really bad news. Back in 1985, a truck dribbled some on the Transcanada Highway not far from where I live. The government repaved most of the highway over as a result. I remember at the time, it was head line news on all the Canadian radio and television stations for days on end. Here is a reference

  • PCBs in high concentrations can cause birth defects, cancer, liver damage, and nerve disorders. Fires in electrical equipment with PCBs can produce dioxins and furans - among the most toxic substances on earth.
  • Episodes in recent years have a direct bearing on renewed government attention to the management of PCBs. In 1985, about 400 litres of 56% PCB transformer oil leaked from a truck along a 100-kilometre stretch of the Trans-Canada Highway between Ignace and Kenora. The accident required clean-up and re-capping of 15 spill areas as well as extensive decon-tamination of vehicles.

Just think if that was your fuel tank leaking? Not to mention someone thinking they breathed in some PCB contamiated exhaust.:eek:
 

aja8888

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Believe it or not, I still occasionally run across old PCB transformers in my project work now. Old oil fields that were electrified back in the 1940s - 1960s used lots of PCB type pole mounted transformers. Many have not been replaced or removed when wells went dry or were taken down and stored in a pipe yard.

One asset sale I worked on last year had a shed with scores of old transformers in it. The seller did not want to pay to have them sent to the Deer Park, TX incineration plant so the value of the asset was reduced to compensate for it.

There are still skeletons in the closet with respect to PCBs, but the numbers are dwindling.

Brian, thanks for the essay on the chemicals in PCBs (not my expertise).
 

MayorDJQ

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Since transformer oil is designed not to burn/ignite....would it work in a Diesel engine?

I just did a quick search. The flash point of D2 is ~140F. The minimum flash point for transformer oil is 285F. Would this increase in flash point be a problem?
 

TDIMeister

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Refined, virgin soybean oil has a flash point over 450*F. Some sources have it as 620*F.
 

Rob_from_Elkmont

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PCB's are really bad news. Back in 1985, a truck dribbled some on the Transcanada Highway not far from where I live. The government repaved most of the highway over as a result. I remember at the time, it was head line news on all the Canadian radio and television stations for days on end.
Same thing happened in North Carolina when I was a teenager in the late 70s. They caught and prosecuted the folks responsible.

http://www.epa.gov/region4/waste/npl/nplnc/pcbsplnc.htm

Rob
 

AndyBees

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Just for the info: An acquaintence of mine use to use the Transformer oil to burn-out fence lines on his farm...... His neighbor worked for a utility and provided him with the oil.

That was back in the 70s. He did it for about 10 years until the PCB thing come along and the guy could no longer get the oil!

The old dude is now 79 and doing just fine......must have stayed up-wind from the flames......LOL
 

Ski in NC

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If it has silicates in it, that's bad news. Silicon compounds were the working ingredient in the stuff they used to seize engines in cash for clunkers program.
 

dpowell7

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I guess I'll answer my own question...
According to:
http://www.epa.gov/wastes/hazard/tsd/pcbs/pubs/manual.pdf
Page X-3
Oil is considered "PCB-FREE with less than 50ppm of PCBs"
Used oil (2-49 ppm) could be burned
for energy recovery, but only in combustion units which​
accomplish PCB destruction (approved facilities).

Translation: DON'T BURN IT!! END OF STORY!!
 
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