Died while driving, now will crank but no start.

Momentslater

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2018
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta 535k km
I was going about 30kmh and I heard a clunk and lost throttle response, 5 seconds later the engine died out. I pulled over to the side of the road, it cranked slow for 2 seconds then cranked normally. Every time I try to crank it, it will start off cranking slow but will turn up to 400 rpm after a second or two.

No clue of a major failure on the road, it's not leaking oil anywhere. ASV is not stuck. Did I drop a valve? Timing belt is still intact.

I'm at a loss.
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Timing belt may not be broken, but is it missing teeth? You need to turn the engine by hand looking at the teeth to know for sure.

Next thing to look at is the turbo. It may have grenaded, sending oil into the engine causing it to crank hard until the oil works out of the cylinders.
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Well don't go buying one without checking it first! It's just a suggestion. I don't know what is wrong with your engine, I'm just throwing out some ideas. It's up to you to do the work to figure out what you need to buy.

You can pull the lower hose off of the intercooler and see if it's full of oil. If it is, then pull the hose off of the turbo and check for shaft play. If it isn't, pull the hose off the turbo and check for shaft play.
 

wonneber

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Monroe, NY, USA
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2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
You can take the boost hose off the EGR and check the ASV is open.
While its off try to start the car.
This will eliminate the turbo as a problem.
 

Momentslater

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Joined
Feb 2, 2018
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta 535k km
I got it home and the fuel filter was empty, filled it up. Went back to being hard to crank, cracked open the injector lines and it was easy to crank again. I pulled cylinder 1 glowplug, easy to crank again. Still no start, got white smoke now.

Will verify timing later today, but I don't understand why it will crank easy without fuel.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
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May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Well if no fuel gets to the combustion chamber, there would be less resistance.
Major clues- empty fuel filter, clunk
 

Momentslater

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Feb 2, 2018
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta 535k km
I don't know how I didn't notice this, huge play in timing belt, wobbly cam gear, hole in the sheild that covers the camshaft. Camshaft seems to have stopped being a camshaft...
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
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Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
Uh, what oilhammer said.

Stop playing with it, remove cylinder head (drain coolant first obviously.) If you're lucky it's just the head that was damaged (valves, cam in this case, etc) and sending the head out + replacing everything in the timing belt chain will be what's required to fix it. Inspect the pistons for obvious damage and CHECK PROTRUSION (to eliminate bent rod possibility.) DO NOT believe you got away with no valve damage - you almost-certainly didn't, and if you make that mistake you may get a catastrophic failure 10k miles or so down the road when a valve head breaks off.

Apeing the cam sprocket bolt can do this, but it usually happens at the time the person does the apeing. Sometimes, it would appear, it happens later.....
 
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whitedog

Veteran Member
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Bend, Oregon
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2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
So it sounds like the valves are hitting the Pistons causing it to turn slowly, then once the lifters are collapsed enough, it spins over faster.

That's my WAG anyway.
 

Momentslater

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Feb 2, 2018
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta 535k km
I pulled the valve cover, the camshaft sheared at the first cap so it only rotates cylinder one. Is there any way to test for bent valves without pulling the head? Can I get away with just replacing cam and lifters for a month just to get me to work and back?
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
The valves DID hit (look at the lifters; you'll see spider-style deformation or cracks in them), the stems WERE compromised, and if you don't pull the head and have it completely gone through you are risking a valve head break off without warning.

If that happens the odds are quite high you will total the engine.

What you have right now is repairable. If you try to short-cut this you risk a failure that is not repairable; these engines are not sleeved and if you severely damage a cylinder bore you're done.

You also need to figure out WHY the cam sheared. That's not something I've heard of as a common issue..... at all.
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
You need to take the head off. You can take the cam out if you like, and pull all the bearings out and the lifters out and visually inspect from the top side how the valves look, you may see something then.

Takes ~15 min, tops.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
If I can't just replace the cam and lifters what am I looking at doing specifically? What parts do I need to get?
You need to take the head off. You cannot tell what you need until you do. Quit asking, and take it apart, or part ways with the car. We cannot see inside the engine.

The head may be able to be fixed, it may need to be replaced. You may have a bent rod and/or a cracked piston. You need to take the head off.
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
Moments, read what Oilhammer said AGAIN AND AGAIN until it compels you to get the wrenches out and remove the head.

If you replace the cam and lifters and do NOT remove the head the odds are VERY HIGH that you have a bent or otherwise compromised valve stem AT LEAST. There is NO WAY to see that without removing the head and then removing the valves. If it happened, and it almost-certainly did, you will be driving down the road at some indeterminate point in the future -- maybe a day from now, maybe a week from now, maybe a year from now -- and the valve in question will break with the mushroom dropping into the cylinder.

WHEN that happens the engine will stop immediately as the valve head won't fit in the space available. It ALSO has a very high probability of gouging the crap out of the piston, head, cylinder wall or all of the above. That has a high probability of at best trashing the rod and piston involved, plus the head, and a decent probability of damaging the bore badly enough that the engine is junk.

Take the head off and send it to Frank06.
 

UhOh

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PNW
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
OP, if you do the work yourself then I'm guessing you're looking at a low of around $750(?) to a high of...

As Oilhammer said, pull the head or get rid of it. SOMEONE is eventually going to have to pull the head. You might find out things are on the lower side of the repair equation BUT still opt to get rid of the car; in this case you'd be able to get more money because the (likely) full extent of the damage will be known. If you don't pull the head then anyone looking to buy the car pretty much has to assume that there's lower end damage and thus would be offering less money less because of this (assumption).
 

Momentslater

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Feb 2, 2018
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Calgary, AB, Canada
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2003 Jetta 535k km
I'm going to pull the head tomorrow, I'm going to buy the head rebuild kit from idparts if the head looks good and there's no cracks and or bottom end damage. If the head is damaged I'll get a new head and if the bottom end is damaged I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it. I got the car for $800 2 months ago, it had a clogged intake and the original owner wasn't very mechanically inclined. I gathered all its service records (all dealer work). $8000 worth of misc repairs and prevt. matinance over the past 2 years, timing belt/waterpump is 15k km old.
 
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Momentslater

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Feb 2, 2018
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
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2003 Jetta 535k km
I can't really seem to think of any reason for the cam to snap, unless a piece of carbon broke off the intake that I missed and something happened in the combustion chamber? I can't think of anything outside of the valve-train to cause this failure.
 

UhOh

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Location
PNW
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
This one is going to be worth the price of admission!
 

Momentslater

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Feb 2, 2018
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta 535k km
I put a new head in last night and ended up breaking an injector fuel return nipple. Other than that it runs great again. Was never really able to figure out the cause of the failure.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
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Dec 24, 2014
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PNW
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Well, crap, would have been nice to have solved the mystery, but, I suppose, the bottom line is to have a working engine! Good to hear that it's back in operation.
 

Momentslater

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Joined
Feb 2, 2018
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
TDI
2003 Jetta 535k km
The 1st and 3rd cam bearings were destroyed, the rest were perfect. Loss of lubrication due to PO use of bad oil clogging oil passages in the head causing failure of the cam bearings? There was metal shavings left behind in cylinder 1 when I pulled the head off, the shavings were copper in colour so I just chalked it up to valve/piston contact and moved on with the repair.
 
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