Received Tesla Model 3, gave back TDI to VW

Jaestar3000

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Every battery company and science / engineering university is working on doubling the capacity and halving the charge times. VW and Tesla both announced 600 mile ranges in the next couple of years and Toyota says they're not doing EVs until they get charge times down to being comparable to fuel fill ups.

So it's happening and is only a matter of time until there's no debate on range or charge times, I'm betting by 2022.

Did you guys see the video of the Tesla X pulling an 18 wheeler up a hill in the snow a few weeks ago?
 

wxman

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...from "well to wheels" there's hundreds of studies that say EVs still cut CO2 and general pollution over fossil fuels - even with mining and production and electricity generation....
Most studies conclude that EVs cut GHG emissions from a WTW perspective, but criteria pollutant emissions are much more mixed (generally lower VOC and CO emissions; higher PM2.5 and SO2 emissions).

See, for example:


http://www.pnas.org/content/111/52/18490

https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/aer.20150897
 

VeeDubTDI

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Most studies conclude that EVs cut GHG emissions from a WTW perspective, but criteria pollutant emissions are much more mixed (generally lower VOC and CO emissions; higher PM2.5 and SO2 emissions).
See, for example:
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/52/18490
https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/aer.20150897
I'd like to know more about options for reducing those PM2.5 and SO2 emissions. Are there dirty manufacturing processes that can be cleaned up? Will the power grid getting cleaner reduce these emissions?
 

wxman

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I'd like to know more about options for reducing those PM2.5 and SO2 emissions. Are there dirty manufacturing processes that can be cleaned up? Will the power grid getting cleaner reduce these emissions?
Here are the GREET_2017 output files comparing the WTW emissions of EV and diesel vehicles using the latest U.S. electricity mix per EIA:







Note that in this case, SOx is much higher. PM2.5 emissions are higher for EV manufacturing than ICEV manufacturing:





Manufacture of batteries creates a disproportionate amount of the emissions in vehicle manufacturing.

These emissions will continue to decrease as the electric grid gets cleaner, including upstream emissions for ICEVs.
 

Jaestar3000

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If the major contributor to the SOX and PM numbers are due to coal, there will continue to be a reduction as coal draws down. Also noted are the significant differences in NOX and CO2 between EV and ICE, about half for EV. GREET doesn't seem to account for regional optimizations either, for example EVs being built and used in heavy Solar / Wind states, or factories that are net 0. I'm sure a significant source of emissions would be due to heavy trucks / equipment in mining and there just won't be a way around that for a while.

Thanks wxman
 

VeeDubTDI

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Checking out what Tesla has for chargers from South Bend, IN to West Virginia it's all doable until after Morgantown, WV. Every year I go to either Elkins or Cass in WV. There are ZERO chargers in that part of the state! Now one can go to Weston (south of Morgantown on I-79) but from there it is 90-95 miles one way to Cass which would be close to a 200 mile range out and back. But add in fact hotels are in Elkins which is 50 miles from Cass - there's a 100 right there. Elkins to Weston is 40 miles. Now add in that the event I attend can go until 11pm and next morning starts at 7am or so. (Can't just show up any time - MUST be there at appointed time to ride a train!) So if I had a Tesla can just make it but would have to drive half the night and likely sleep in the thing as well just to get recharged. Not practical at all to do!

Yes, looked in opposite direction too. Can go from Cass to Mt. Jackson, VA Supercharger but that's 120 miles one way so is not feasible either.

This is a remote area of West Virginia - there is NO cell phone service in the Cass area due to the observatory in Green Bank. Probably going to be years before a Supercharger makes it to the Elkins area.

Obviously a TDI or gasser makes much more sense for road trips to Elkins/Cass area. I also sometimes head to Romney, WV but there at least a Supercharger is only 30 miles away in LaVale, MD (west of Cumberland) which also is where most hotels are. So Romney is at least practical and not pushing the range compared to Elkins/Cass.

Still a Catch-22 these days - won't buy a Tesla because there are not enough Superchargers and there are not enough Superchargers being built yet since there are not enough Teslas on the road. So question is how long before there are Superchargers spaced about every 50 miles or so which will make driving a Tesla much more practical?
Hey Robert,

I assume you’re going to Cass sometime during warmer weather for the historic railroad adventures. I need to get up there one of these days and ride one of the old steam engines.

There are a couple of route options that will get you there and back utilizing only the Tesla Supercharger network without relying on any sort of destination charging at hotels or stores.

You can take the Ohio Turnpike and head down I-79 or you can take the much more scenic and toll-free route through diagonally through Fort Wayne, Columbus and Parkersburg. If I were doing the trip, I would take the latter and avoid the expensive and boring turnpikes even though it’s slightly longer and slightly slower.

If you click on this link — https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=fec32d4f-3f24-4831-8e06-def53c07b6d1 — and click on PLAN ROUTE, you’ll see that the scenic route involves three Supercharger stops to get from South Bend to Cass and three more stops for the return trip.

The route above isn’t the most time efficient due to the long distance between the Grove City (Columbus) and Weston Superchargers. That requires charging closer to 100%, which is slower than charging to about 60% and adding an extra Supercharger stop. It takes as long to go from 80% to 100% as it does to go from 10% to 80%.

Feel free to poke around in A Better Route Planner and change some settings for head wind, weather and travel speed to see how those variables affect energy consumption and charge times. This trip can certainly be done in a long range Model 3 (310 miles EPA rated) in the spring, summer and fall. You could also do it in the winter, but it would require a route closer Supercharger spacing (that Grove City to Weston leg I mentioned above) to do it comfortably.

Total trip cost using Superchargers is $24, which works out to 2 cents per mile. If you round up to $30 to account for the energy used at your home, it comes out to about 2.5 cents per mile. That’s about half the cost of a TDI at 50 MPG with $2.50 per gallon diesel fuel. I honestly don’t know what the price of diesel is these days, but I think it’s at least that.

Note that the savings costs you a little extra time due to needing to charge. Total charge time for the round trip is just over 3 hours. If you factor in the food and restroom breaks that you’d probably taking anyway, the additional wait time would probably be under one hour for the car, and much of that would be due to the long charging stop to prepare for the Grove City to Weston gap. A more optimized route would save a little on charging time.
 

251

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Hey Lawson,

Sorry I haven't checked back in here sooner. Appreciate the info on a Tesla to Cass trip. Yes, this would be for a railroad related event. I generally go out there before or after the normal tourist season (before Memorial Day and after peak fall color) when the railroad can operate a special train that ties up the line for the day. So not quite during the warmer weather period...

It's always a quandary whether to use the turnpikes or not. Cost to use ones in Indiana and Ohio isn't too bad but Pennsylvania is $$$$ - but they are about the fastest way since they are more of a diagonal compared to the 'free' routes. Avoiding toll roads cuts cost but increases trip time by about 1 hour one way. Over the years I've gone a number of ways - some to see how I like a different route or just to keep from being bored going the same way every time. I find about the best compromise is using the turnpike thru Indiana and Ohio then use other roads to reach Elkins/Cass. Cheapest fuel is also along the non-turnpike portions in eastern Ohio - bonus! Diesel is usually about $2.75 or more along this general route so $2.50 is a bit on low side which makes Tesla numbers look even better.

That route planning site you linked I was unaware of. I based my estimate off the range of a Tesla and where chargers were shown on Tesla's own charger locator site. Obviously the link you provided is more detailed and accurate for planning a trip.

A Tesla or other EV is still a way off in my future but I like to keep informed on things so I can make better decisions when my TDI comes up for replacement which should not be for a few years yet.
 

VeeDubTDI

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tesla charger sheetz rt 618 old rt50 east and west 7th street at east street
parkersburg wv
A welcome addition that makes it possible to travel through this area while avoiding the major interstates. When coming back to DC from Columbus, Ohio, I routinely take US-50 rather than I-70.
 

Blue_Hen_TDI

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A welcome addition that makes it possible to travel through this area while avoiding the major interstates. When coming back to DC from Columbus, Ohio, I routinely take US-50 rather than I-70.
I'm was flabbergasted by the PA Turnpike toll rates when I drove to the Midwest last summer. I'm heading back again this summer and will be taking I-68 and whatever else keeps me out of PA. I resolved never to pay one of their tolls again. It was more than the OH, IN, and IL tolls combined on my EZPass statement.
 

tdi54

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Tesla's are heavy, you need to change the tires/brake pads more often--another source of air pollution-- And they can be burden in cold/hot weather operations. In addition, the average life cycle of a Diesel car is probably 50 percent more than those of electric cars--including Tesla. Tesla or electric cars are not the answer for the real world driving requirements in their current state except in certain cases where you often have city driving with short distances.
TDI's are still the only viable choice currently given their excellent range, torque, reliability and extended life cycle.
 

GoFaster

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Ummm, they also have regenerative braking ... most people won't be using the friction brakes all that much, certainly not as much as for a comparable combustion-engine vehicle. They do NOT have a history of requiring frequent brake replacement ... the opposite.

Tires, sure, but a Tesla Model S weighs approx 5000 lbs ... it's not all *that* far out of range of many common vehicles.

VW TDI cars with full modern emission control do not have a proven durability history. In fact, they have a history of many of them being recalled and flattened for manufacturer cheating on emissions certifications. For the ones that survived, HPFP. DPF. SCR and AdBlue. The engine itself may be ok but there is a high probability that the emission control systems surrounding it will prove expensive to keep running.

Electrics don't have any of that. For that matter, gasoline vehicles don't have much of it, either.

It is waaaaayyy overreaching to say that a TDI is the "only" viable choice. I've gone away from them ... "too complicated for their own good".

I'm not opposed to my next commuter/daily vehicle being an EV.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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TDI's are still the only viable choice currently given their excellent range, torque, reliability and extended life cycle.
Keep in mind that I only drive diesel cars and sell parts for them when I say this statement is so not true. I do not see electrics as a worthy alternative to ICE for many uses, but gasoline powered cars can last as long and be as, if not more reliable, than modern diesels. And often repair costs will be lower for gasoline cars.

If I needed to buy a gasoline powered car I'd look for indirect injection, normal aspiration, traditional head unit instead of infotainment/nav, manual transmission, and as few power/automated features as possible. There are a fair number of cars out there that meet those requirements: Honda Civic, various Hyundais and Kias, and Mazda (if you can bend on the infotainment). They will probably have an engine service life that is near, if not greater than a diesel, and are far simpler.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I can almost monthly show you THAT isn't true, LOL.

Hondas steadily get worse with every new generation, although their V6s are still pretty good.

Hyundai/Kia stuff has gotten laughable bad on engines lately. They gave good will warranty extensions on many models, but not all. DI or not. And their newest problem is this stupid E-CVVT leaking oil into the electric motor that adjusts the cam. They have a campaign, but the campaign is a stop-gap. It *might* slow the problem from happening again soon, but it will still happen, and if it has already ruined the phaser, half the engine has to be torn apart to fix it! This is sad, because their cars actually are not too bad t o drive for the most part, and they are comfortable with well laid out controls, decent steering and brakes, etc. But that all means nothing if randomly the connecting rods without warning decide to divorce the crankshaft.

Mazda is still crawling out from under Ford, I am not sure how longevity is on some of their newest stuff.

I blame a lot of it on this super thin oil they spec. Toyota even has a 0w16 spec on some models :eek:

And boy, the CVTs they are pushing... holy crap. Not sure there is a faster way to make a car miserable to drive than to curse it with a CVT. The new Corolla is a dismal hunk of garbage to drive. I'd just as soon crash one into a pole than to drive it anywhere. It is like driving a snowmobile with 10 fat chicks on skis behind you. Up hill. Noisy. Slow. Awful. You *can* still get a manual in those cars, but good luck finding one.

Pretty sad when I'd rather drive a half million mile 19 year old diesel Golf than anything new. But I would. No contest.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Well, we're alike in respect to your last line. I just had a new IP put on my Wagon along with timing belt service. 385K and I fully intend to keep driving it until an accident takes it out. I'm surprised that rust isn't really taking hold, although I may have to take a second look at the rocker panels in a couple years. When I was without that car for the last week and a half I truly missed it, even though I have some pretty nice alternatives. And I have a fully restored '99.5 Golf waiting for when the wagon finally succumbs to whatever it succumbs to.

I appreciate your insight into newer cars that at least on the surface look pretty good. But maybe not. I was considering selling my '93 300D Mercedes this year, but every time I drive it I realize how much better built that car is than anything you can buy today. So I think I'll hang on to it.
 

tdi54

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I agree, I shouldn't have said that the "TDI''s are the only viable choice" I guess I didn't proof read what I wrote, my mishap. However what I meant was that ICE vehicles and Diesel's in particular are still attractive, preferable choice of transportation in passenger or large vehicles.
They enjoy robust demand around the world as opposed to EV's and they're cheaper, last much longer than any EV's produced in today's standards. And overall their cumulative carbon foot print is probably not much drastically higher than EV's given that a Diesel engines can last easily 20-40 years, could you say this for EV's?
OIlhammer, your point is well taken on newer cars, I too should stick to my ~10 year old Jetta with 220K on it!!
 
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oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
I just did an HVAC case/ heater core on a 2005 BEW sedan... with 356k on the clock. Although you'd never know by looking at it, as he takes such good care of it. And I am doing a 390k service today on my favorite cab! :D
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Just found out one of its original (Sachs) rear shocks is leaking. That is pretty good service life considering how many times its back seat and trunk have been occupied.
 

tikal

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I agree, I shouldn't have said that the "TDI''s are the only viable choice" I guess I didn't proof read what I wrote, my mishap. However what I meant was that ICE vehicles and Diesel's in particular are still attractive, preferable choice of transportation in passenger or large vehicles.
They enjoy robust demand around the world as opposed to EV's and they're cheaper, last much longer than any EV's produced in today's standards. And overall their cumulative carbon foot print is probably not much drastically higher than EV's given that a Diesel engines can last easily 20-40 years, could you say this for EV's?
OIlhammer, your point is well taken on newer cars, I too should stick to my ~10 year old Jetta with 220K on it!!
I agree that ICE vehicles are going to be around for decades specially in the US with such large vehicles such as pickup trucks and SUVs for private passenger transportation. EVs are going to prosper in industrialized regions of the world where fuel prices are relatively high.

Lets face it, outside of the large Touareg TDI, the rest of the existing TDI vehicles are in majority relatively small sedans (and some wagons). Based on the ongoing observed trend in America and the current fuel cost, the future of gasoline ICE SUVs and pickup trucks looks bright. Something like a Jetta or Golf TDI, even if they bring them back to the US, not so good!
 

VeeDubTDI

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I'm was flabbergasted by the PA Turnpike toll rates when I drove to the Midwest last summer. I'm heading back again this summer and will be taking I-68 and whatever else keeps me out of PA. I resolved never to pay one of their tolls again. It was more than the OH, IN, and IL tolls combined on my EZPass statement.
Yeah, the PA Turnpike has gotten very expensive lately. I think they realize they have to expand the road, which is hugely expensive in the mountains. Lots of major construction happening the past couple of years.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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Interesting thread and opinions from both sides of the debate.

I've been driving diesels as my primary (and secondary and tertiary) vehicles for over 20 years and am a lifelong "car guy" building, modifying, combining cars together for over 30 years and I see the sun (slowly) setting on vehicles as we have known them for the last 50+ years.

Electric has growing pains for sure, but so did cars as we know them now. We've had over 100 years to adapt and manage our expectations around ICE vehicles. I'm guessing that it will take electrics less than 25 years to meet/beat what we've been accustomed to with ICE (and we're already 5+ years into it).

I keep looking at used Model S's, but will need to wait a few more years. I have routine (30-40/year) travels that are 250 miles with 1 charging option available along the route (and it's close to home and 10+ miles out of the way). So when considering doing these trips in the winter/summer where heating/cooling loads are high or snow/rain increase rolling resistance or pulling a trailer, there just isn't enough range to make it where I need to go. I can insure I leave with a full charge and can charge when I get there, but need to be able to make the trip on one charge in most any conditions. This requires a 300+ mile range and that's cutting it close.

For "most" people, which almost by definition excludes "most" people on this forum...many of the electric's are a perfectly viable option for a 2nd car or even a primary car.

Local solar (individual rooftop) electricity generation and storage will be a requirement for widespread adoption of electric transportation. The power distribution grid just isn't sufficient to handle that kind of demand. Below is a nice visual of the US energy usage distribution from LLNL (link here - they have state by state data as well)

"we" can't add even 50% to the electricity generation with our existing electrical power grid, so my opinion is that a distributed system (individual rooftops) is the only viable way forward to supplement our existing infrastructure.

https://fixuntilbroke.files.wordpress.com/2019/04/llnl-2017-us-energy-consumption-map.jpg
 
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Fix_Until_Broke

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Kind of - there would need to be delayed charging kinds of automation implemented (very easy to do) so when you come home, you plug your car in, but it does not start charging until "off peak" hours.

And as the article stated, this only works in certain areas - other area just simply don't have the capacity to supply the potential demand.

So, instead of investing in more centralized infrastructure, if we invest in decentralized infrastructure (individual rooftop solar and storage) we can start trimming off the peaks and add significantly to the overall capacity of the grid - particularly with the storage ability with minimal environmental impact.
 

nicklockard

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Arizona
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Kind of - there would need to be delayed charging kinds of automation implemented (very easy to do) so when you come home, you plug your car in, but it does not start charging until "off peak" hours.
And as the article stated, this only works in certain areas - other area just simply don't have the capacity to supply the potential demand.
So, instead of investing in more centralized infrastructure, if we invest in decentralized infrastructure (individual rooftop solar and storage) we can start trimming off the peaks and add significantly to the overall capacity of the grid - particularly with the storage ability with minimal environmental impact.
The utilities are finally figuring this out. My provider APS offered to install and maintain a large array on my roof and give me $30/month off my electric bill. Problem is, they're way greedy. My roof has 100% perfect solar exposure and can generate enough to power me and 5 of my neighbors during peak summer electric consumption, and enough to power mine and 12 other homes (on average) the rest of the year. And I get a stinking $30/month?? They should give me 2900 KwH per year as payment for my location. They'd still make out like bandits.

But they must think we're all stupid.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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The fact that many utilities don't even offer net metering, and the ones that do are buying back at ~10% of the purchased rate is disappointing.

Unfortunately there's a bit of a monopoly - where else will you get your electric power other than to "grow your own" which many can't afford the upfront cost to do. The power companies will need the customers to assist them in power generation and the customers will need the power companies to supply power that exceeds locally generated/stored capacity.

But, when you have a captive audience, you can just charge more as demand increases, introduce time of day metering, pay less for your supply (net metering). None of which gives the power companies any incentive to add significant capacity beyond what it takes to prevent blackouts.

The rooftops already exist - just need to put the equipment on them rather than (or in addition to) thousands of acres of solar farms.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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The utilities are finally figuring this out. My provider APS offered to install and maintain a large array on my roof and give me $30/month off my electric bill. Problem is, they're way greedy. My roof has 100% perfect solar exposure and can generate enough to power me and 5 of my neighbors during peak summer electric consumption, and enough to power mine and 12 other homes (on average) the rest of the year. And I get a stinking $30/month?? They should give me 2900 KwH per year as payment for my location. They'd still make out like bandits.

But they must think we're all stupid.
Or don't want to spend the money. I made the decision to purchase panels 5 years ago instead of using Solar City or a similar provider. They tend to credit you at an average low rate cost of energy, and usually lowball product by at least 20%. And they take all the tax benefits and SREQ credits. We bought the panels and have gotten close to 100% of our electrical needs, plus a federal tax credit the first year, a rebate from the state, net metering, and SREQ credits that have averaged $900 - $1,200 annually. System paid for itself in 3 years or less.

But local storage is a problem. Not cheap. In fact, your Tesla is good solar electrical storage, and you could draw on its batteries in case of a power failure. Otherwise storage is still pretty expensive.
 
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