TDI airplane?

.15ktotheairport

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So I've a friend that wants to build an experimental plane. He was shaking me down for stats like engine weight and other data points I didn't know where to even find. He quickly lost interest when I said it was drive by wire. So my initial question would be is there an injection pump that works for the TDI that has a cable? I'm not even sure this is where the cable would be now that I think about. I'm thinking about the alh with a few tweaks at the moment. Also to anyone with your hopes up this project probably wouldn't even have a complete bill of materials for at least 3 years.

If anyone can find other threads on this topic - you are much better at using search than I. If anyone has engine specs, torque graphs, and other interesting material let me thank you in advance - I'll probably only have a few hours a week to repost stuff in this thread for a while.

I personally would prefer to just do a redundant computer control setup based on a striped down super stable linux with one system being an Atom and another low speed intel set - but I have more faith in solid state and non MS OSes than he ever will...
 

G60ING

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No TDIs Currently, I have an R36 Corrado. I've had an ALH Corrado swap, AHU Corrado swap and 2003 TDI Jetta
I love VWs and VW engines but I can always pull over to call AAA for a tow if something is not going perfect. I'd avoid an experimental airplane or chopper that had a vw engine
 

DPM

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Subaru boxers have been converted for aero use, haven't they? Maybe the boxer diesel will find itself in a plane some day, it's barely heavier than a gasser.
 

Jack Frost

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The lower rpm of a diesel would be an advantage in an airplane application. I understand that automotive motors require gear reduction to drive a propeller.
 

Lug_Nut

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The weight of the TDI cast iron block would be an disadvantage long before the benefit of diesel's fuel frugality advantage would be worthwhile.
Leave the powerplant to Continental, Rotax and others that have the experience.
 

Jack Frost

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Agreed weight, simplicity, and reliability are critical issues with airplanes. With common rail technology, I think someone is already thinking of designing a diesel motor for an airplane or at least some of diesel technology. The weak link of gasoline powered motors are their throttles because they can ice up so easy in moist cool conditions.
 

Pat Dolan

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I don't believe this. I am on a diesel forum, and nobody seems to realize what diesel engines are already running around in airplanes.?

To Lug Nut's comments: Continental (moreso than Rotax) build bloody AWFUL engines! Barely 1930s technology. Also, the kind of fuel efficiency that makes an airplane pretty much useless for some missions. It's not a matter of them not knowing what they are doing, just not caring to take the risk of innovation in a market that is conservative by corporate culture, regulatory and AMERICAN INSURANCE idiocy.

G60ing: Probably more VW engines in aircraft (from air cooled days in the distant past) than any other automotive source. That includes factory motorgliders with Type IV engines that were certified in Europe (and fantastic engines with the hindsight of decades of history).

For someone wanting a diesel airplane (especially homebuilt), there were thousands of Thielert engines built (135HP 1.7 Mercedes with gear reduction) that went into Diamond (and other) airplanes until Thierlert's over-confident growth plans hit the financial crisis fan and tanked the company. Those were life limit engines that one might get time-x, since there is no longer a company to return them to for required rebuild/scrapping. Find a Diamond forum.

Those engines were replaced in Diamond aircraft with their own similar engine based on 2.0 design with 160HP, but these are new and a bit costly for homebuilders.

Of course, the answer to Continental is also diesel. EADS/Socata builds the SMA 5.0 litre diesel (horizontally opposed, air cooled, like old-school genav engines) at 230 HP direct drive. Perfect in C-182 (where it was long ago STCd) to replace the Continenatl 0-520 boat anchor.

To the OP: yes, you can build a mechanical pump TDI and dump electronic controls. However, forget about direct drive. To have any kind of propeller efficiency, the engine would make very little power. That is why the Thielert and Diamond engines are gear reduced. But, I can tell you as a former manufacturer of this kind of stuff (airboats), developing a one-off automotive installation for aircraft use is not easy. YES, it is quite do-able, but a fair bit of design and fab work. When someone is asking basic questions (albeit vicariously) it suggests they don't really have the background to pull it off successfully.

Tell your friend to look to Delta Hawk or many of the experimental market deisel engine suppliers. This is hardly a new thing in the homebuilt OR certified world.
 

Drivbiwire

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Austro engines for Diamond aircraft are back to using cast iron blocks...

For the most part, converting a 1.9TDI is a no go. The power is too low for it's weight. The cost of modifying the engine to work would far exceed the price AND cost of operation of a production engine.
 

Pat Dolan

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Drivbiwire said:
Austro engines for Diamond aircraft are back to using cast iron blocks...

For the most part, converting a 1.9TDI is a no go. The power is too low for it's weight. The cost of modifying the engine to work would far exceed the price AND cost of operation of a production engine.
Most homebuilts get so few hours, it doesn't really matter WHAT fuel consumption they have. However, in the defense of such an engine, if using a design that will deal with the weight and power, it is not impossible. Remember that one of the very roots of homebuilding was the Pietenpol Air Camper - powered by a stock Model T Ford engine. Hardly a lightweight powerhouse.

The whole point (to some of us, anyhow) of "experimental" airplanes is to experiment - often just for the heck of it. IF you have the skill set, a TDI would be a fine (if not wimpy and heavy) engine to re-drive - just for the heck of it.
 

The Chris

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A few years ago, I talked with a guy from SAS that was putting Mercedes diesels into Cessnas with great success. Something like a few hundred miles more range.
 

Jack Frost

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As long as the horse power is matched to the wing loading, the centre of gravity is not behind the centre of lift and you can keep it pointed forward and level - even a barn door will fly.:D
 

roundout

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There's a dude somewhere out of DFW area flying around a Thorpedo with a 3 cylinder diesel. There's also a guy at Grand Prairie working on a diesel Cessna 150 STC. He is a long way off - just starting out.

I have about 150 hours in a Thielert DA-42, FWIW. Fun plane.
 

Scott_DeWitt

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Sounds like a pretty risk endeavor, but the 1.2 tdi engine did use an all aluminum engine. however power is pretty low. if you want a throttle cable you will have to go the Mtdi route, however short of a lightning strike, the TDI's electronics have been very reliable. We sell a new Mtdi pump that makes this task almost trivial.

Many automotive engines have been converted for experimental airplane used

VW beetle
subaru boxer engine
Porsche boxer engine

However the only FAA certified automotive engine conversion was the Porsche/Mooney collaboration.

Doesn't Cessna offer a Diesel model now?
 

roundout

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Scott_DeWitt said:
Sounds like a pretty risk endeavor, but the 1.2 tdi engine did use an all aluminum engine. however power is pretty low. if you want a throttle cable you will have to go the Mtdi route, however short of a lightning strike, the TDI's electronics have been very reliable. We sell a new Mtdi pump that makes this task almost trivial.

Many automotive engines have been converted for experimental airplane used

VW beetle
subaru boxer engine
Porsche boxer engine

However the only FAA certified automotive engine conversion was the Porsche/Mooney collaboration.

Doesn't Cessna offer a Diesel model now?
Also FWIW, the Porsche Mooney (M20L, or PFM) was completely FADEC - no throttle cable and no prop control. It was 20 years ahead of its time. Too bad it was such a flop. The IO-550G converted L models are some of the fastest Mooneys out there. 200ktas or better at 10,000. The only other Mooneys that can do that is are the Acclaim or a K model, both of which are turbocharged.

The DA42 is also completely FADEC.
 

.15ktotheairport

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Awesome thanks for the replies. My buddy's first question was, "Is it an aluminum block?". I wasn't sure, good to know the lupo is though, I'd really love to have several of those for various on the ground apps.... Is there anyone importing 1.2's new or used into the states? My buddy won't fly in airbus because of fly by wire so thanks on the mtdi lead.
350's are a rather common auto engine in x planes and Jet A fuel is basically diesel....
After giving him a rough red line number he suggested 3/4 gear reduction.
So my friend is diesel (heavy and light duty) mechanic by trade. He put a plane in the dirt and was originally interested in making an x so that he could make the fuel system redundant - injection and carbureted as that's about the only thing not being done redundant in the FAA world. We just finished putting brakes on the 310 the other day so it's not like he's looking to make a cross country x plane (I'm not sure anyone could even come close to Rutan's Boomerang specs of efficiency and speed). The fact of the matter is that for a joyriding plane (~<100 knots cruise) it seems like an x plane would be far better than cost of operation on any production plane....
It's not purely a question of diesel, but the TDI is tempting on first blush because of it's efficiency and low rpm range (I'm not so sure that reduction would be need as 2400 seems to be close to peak power band).
Thanks for all the responses!
 

mrGutWrench

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.15ktotheairport said:
Awesome thanks for the replies. My buddy's first question was, "Is it an aluminum block?". I wasn't sure, good to know the lupo is though, I'd really love to have several of those for various on the ground apps.... Is there anyone importing 1.2's new or used into the states? My buddy won't fly in airbus because of fly by wire so thanks on the mtdi lead.
350's are a rather common auto engine in x planes and Jet A fuel is basically diesel....
After giving him a rough red line number he suggested 3/4 gear reduction.
So my friend is diesel (heavy and light duty) mechanic by trade. He put a plane in the dirt and was originally interested in making an x so that he could make the fuel system redundant - injection and carbureted as that's about the only thing not being done redundant in the FAA world. We just finished putting brakes on the 310 the other day so it's not like he's looking to make a cross country x plane (I'm not sure anyone could even come close to Rutan's Boomerang specs of efficiency and speed). The fact of the matter is that for a joyriding plane (~<100 knots cruise) it seems like an x plane would be far better than cost of operation on any production plane....
It's not purely a question of diesel, but the TDI is tempting on first blush because of it's efficiency and low rpm range (I'm not so sure that reduction would be need as 2400 seems to be close to peak power band).
Thanks for all the responses!
__. No, listen to Pat Dolan. There are a number of good aero diesel possibilities but the TDI isn't one of them. Don't worry about "power band" - unless you have a very sophisticated controllable pitch prop (doable, but headaches and $$$$), you're entirely looking at horsepower. I'm thinking that a prop of any length will need close to a 2:1 reduction for TDI power characteristics.

__. Not to say that it can't be done -- you can put a locomotive engine in a roller skate if you have enough money and don't care what a total mess of a machine you'll have when you finish -- but the TDI isn't a good choice to start with. Good generator engine, good water pump engine, but not a good aero engine.
 

.15ktotheairport

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Scott_DeWitt said:
Sounds like a pretty risk endeavor,
It's hard to quantify risky until your glide ratio is determined. For instance my friends constant pitch single has less than a half glide ratio of the 310 twin variable pitch prop even though the 310 weighs 30+% more...

As to calling AAA, we live 75 miles away from a Walmart and 150 miles to a tiny commercial airport. We could easily wait 3-4 hours in 105* heat waiting for AAA. We're more likely to hitch back to the house and grab the truck and trailer.... But almost all of us living in BFE that go off state highways do our best to maintain our vehicles to avoid any such situations as there are plenty of places without cell signal or traffic to get you out of a pinch.... On top of that I bet you didn't know that aircraft have the right of way on federal roads and I think most state highways;)
 

.15ktotheairport

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Thanks for your post. Your right I certainly don't have anywhere near the mechanical skills to consider trying to do something like this. While my buddy has the fab skills and tool access, your right the design would probably be the most daunting part of the project.

As a new owner and pilot in training, I still very perturbed by this part of your quote in the airplane world.

Pat Dolan said:
in a market that is conservative by corporate culture, regulatory and AMERICAN INSURANCE idiocy.
 

Jack Frost

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.15ktotheairport said:
It's hard to quantify risky until your glide ratio is determined.
As a former sailplane pilot, I can assure you that an aircraft with steeper glide ratios are easier to land. What makes an powerless aircraft difficult to land is a pilot who doesn't understand that gravity is an alternate engine. All sorts of heavy aircraft have been successfully landed without their engines. The space shuttle being one of them. Another one was the jetliner that landed a few miles from where I live: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider.

I once worked at a small airport in northern Ontario. A pilot of a Twin Otter lost both its engines on takeoff in the dark. He had the cool to request (and was delivered a landing clearance). He then proceeded to do a full circuit and land on the same runway he took off on. From the radio chatter that took place after, the pilots on the ground seemed more excited than he was.
 

Yucca

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.15ktotheairport

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Jack Frost said:
As a former sailplane pilot, I can assure you that an aircraft with steeper glide ratios are easier to land. What makes an powerless aircraft difficult to land is a pilot who doesn't understand that gravity is an alternate engine. All sorts of heavy aircraft have been successfully landed without their engines.
My understanding is that a powered down landing is part of the check ride, on the twin there's a landing on each engine then powered down. The glide ratio is what gives you some options on places to land - say if you're over woods or mountains. After reading about the RV (search for van's aircraft) my impression is that low stall speed is what makes an off runway landing safer- i.e. putting down in the pasture at 51 versus 77 is a big difference.

Thanks for the link Yucca that looks like a h e double hockey sticks of a toy. Did you have a job for it or did you just want to make it happen?
 

The Shootist

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The biggest driver behind diesel aircraft research is not fuel efficiency or power levels, it's fuel availability. In many areas of the globe avgas is un-obtainable. Jet-A is available though.
 

Pat Dolan

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The Shootist said:
The biggest driver behind diesel aircraft research is not fuel efficiency or power levels, it's fuel availability. In many areas of the globe avgas is un-obtainable. Jet-A is available though.
There are a huge number of reasons for diesel rather than gasoline. Fuel availability is definitely one, but only one. Fuel efficiency/range is another. Saftey of the fuel another. Engine longevity/reliability (if you had an automotive engine with the short life expetency of genav crap, you would join a class action suit overnight!) another. Niggling little details such as performance at altitude (ignition systems are a ***** at very high altitudes - of course diesel injection could care less).

Bottom line: who in his right mind would use an SI engine in any car, truck, boat or aircraft?????? Gasoline is right next to propane as a really stupid fuel.
 

.15ktotheairport

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Pat Dolan said:
\ Engine longevity/reliability (if you had an automotive engine with the short life expetency of genav crap, you would join a class action suit overnight!)
To illustrate:

I can understand the low TBO's (to be overhauled) on commercial aircraft. However for genav it sure does seem splitting engines to mic the crankshaft bearings at the car equivalent of 90-105k (1500 hours) miles is a little excessive. My understanding is you can mic just about everything else when you do the top end.... That's the FAA for you: you can work on a homebuilt that never flies and end up with a A and P license.....
 

G60ING

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Ski in NC said:
Then you would look for somewhere to land without power.
Space for landing on the wheels is an optional item in this case:eek:
 

Jack Frost

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Ski in NC said:
You would fly faster for a while, then your motor would break. Then you would look for somewhere to land without power.
Gravity is always a source of power. Pilots constantly exchange and negotiate it with height - and when you have an engine - with fuel.
 
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