My Compound Build /// B4v

loudspl

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Apr 22, 2005
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Osakis, Minnesota
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02 ASV w/ 02J
Nope...I def. need to since I have much larger nozzles and turbo now. Car is much faster since those numbers Matt quoted from old setup :D

That Superflow eddy current dyno "seems" conservative, but maybe it's actually more accurate than an inertia one for our cars....supposedly it's ideal for boosted or N20 applications, where the runs won't shock the load cell and generate artificially high #s.

I think Matt said they have an inertia one there too
 
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TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
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With all due respect to Gus and Matt - I have the greatest respect for them both and their efforts - I have to laugh when I read about dynos that read low and are "heartbreakers", and dynos that read high and are either falsified or calibrated by no-nothings :D I just wish in every case there were both extremes in the same town that each project can dyno at both facilities on the same day and post their results and let the peanut gallery pick at them. I don't really care about low- or high reading plots. I just care for them to be right. And it's pretty easy to spot based on some telltale signs to a knowing eye which is high, low and about right.

I'm certain Gus' monster has lots of upside potential. Don't blow up your engine all at once Gus, summer isn't even here yet! :D
 

bhtooefr

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To be fair, there really are high-reading dynos - I recall someone claiming 160 whp out of a tuning box... and it turns out that the same day, on the same dyno, a bone-stock ALH did 120 whp.

(I believe that was the incident that resulted in massively overstated horsepower figures being called "Canadian wheel horsepower".)

Really, having a bone-stock car around as a reference would be damn useful for testing dynos. (I know, there'll be some variance in actual output power even then, but...)
 

fouckhest

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Aug 26, 2007
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g'vegs, sc
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.:GTD, .:R32, DangerRanger
I think we found a perfect match with .013's; Matt installed them today and actually ripped some welds on an axle.:D Anyone know how much of an upgrade Raxles are vs. 6sp?
Gus I think Raxles will run you right around $1k; definitely cheaper than doing a trans swap, which will require custom axles regardless
 

NoJoke

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Joined
Apr 11, 2003
Gus I think Raxles will run you right around $1k; definitely cheaper than doing a trans swap, which will require custom axles regardless
Sorry need to rephrase... currently installed is an O2M 6sp/axles; are there many cases of torn O2M axles if so at what HP?

In response to the dyno comments I'm well aware of all the inflated figures, a 1/4 mile like scubagli said is a better gauge. Nevertheless there has been quite a number of modded tdi's on that exact dyno Matt is using so there is some validity at its own ratios.

Besides I would be the first to say the setup "doesn't work" but i don't think that's the case.

In regards to fueling.... I think we found the bottleneck with the nozzles but I'm sticking with .013s since pistons are the weak point.
 

ryanp

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Jun 22, 2008
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Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
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Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
I broke the splines off my 02Q (similar to 02M) Shaft at the weekend:

 

fouckhest

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Sorry need to rephrase... currently installed is an O2M 6sp/axles; are there many cases of torn O2M axles if so at what HP?
well HP wise i think most of the R32 guys run them, and there are lots of them that are well over 500HP...so i wouldnt think that you should have issues w/O2M axles...

however, that being said, i do have Raxle O2m axles on the front of my car...but i needed new axles when i started my AWD swap, so i figured it was better to just go ahead and get them...well worth the piece of mind, i put about 1k miles on mine w/a torn inner boot and it is still good!
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
mine are still alive after so much wheelhop the lower middle dashboard support sheared off =)
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
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(I believe that was the incident that resulted in massively overstated horsepower figures being called "West coast Canadian wheel horsepower".)
There, corrected for you. :D Some places seem to tend to be populated with high-reading dynos more than others - must be the local atmosphere - we know where those general geographic regions are if not specific dynos and won't be repeated here... but they occur everywhere as do low-reading ones. Remember the magazine article 318 HP TDI? My point is that if the same car is measured on the same day and conditions on both known high- and low- dynos, the true output is somewhere in between and fanboys of both ends of the spectrum can have their fodder to chomp on. I overwhelmingly believe that "conservative" dynos are closer to the true value and even then I pay close scrutiny and am very skeptical of ANY CFs used. Atmospheric CFs more than say 2% make me suspicious.
 
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Whitbread

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Johannesburg, MI
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As Gus said, when I tossed in the .013" nozzles last night, no dyno was needed to say they're making more power. I broke the weld where I shortened the passenger side axle first time I hit full boost.

At the time, I didn't have a lathe to make a sleeve so it was just butt welded. Now it has a 1.5" DOM internal sleeve (had to turn it down to 1.413"), 8 plug welds, and the butt weld. It stood up to the run today to the machine shop :).

It pulls a little harder up top now and I actually broke 1000F egt's on the street today, made it all the way to 1010F haha. I think it still wants more fuel :D. Smoke on full boost was a haze at best.





Turns out the exhaust leak at the v band on the cross over pipe was from milling the turbo mount flat. It changed the angle ever so slightly so the v band didn't want to sit perfectly flat. It was very tricky cutting the bend out of the flange and not damaging either; that weld had really good penetration haha. But, got it all adjusted and no leaks now. I think the weld turned out even better than the first time haha.

 

Satiro

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Aug 3, 2006
Location
Spain
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IBIZA 1.9TDI 110hp AFN 1998
Looks so beautiful those weldings! really nice work. I didn't understand at all the axle fixing process, can you explain me a bit please? are the internal pipe welded by 4 welding points to each side of axle, and then just welding two sides of axles with a butt welding? excuse me, my poor english again!:eek:

If so, is the balancing done by a machine shop, once all weldings are finished? how's re-balancing process?

Thanks in advance! GREAT thread.:)
 

NoJoke

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2003
The good news is the .013's produce more power which seems like the choke point here unless I'm wrong. With only 1000f egt's we have a lot of room to play with.

Now the question, do we go up a size or increase pressure on the current ones? Going up a size would hurt atomization but at what point(11/12mm pump)...any educated guesses?

Chime in Matt:D does "Smoke'm" have larger sizes on hand?
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
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Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
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Ibiza '99 90HP
how did you think of increasing pressure? custom camplate? 13/14mm head?

thhat there is a haze with only 1000 degF proves atomisation or bowl/swirl is poor.. cr engine runs lambda 1.05 with very light haze, over 900 degC egt
 

loudspl

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Apr 22, 2005
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Osakis, Minnesota
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02 ASV w/ 02J
Didn't Andy hit that bottleneck with the 12mm pumphead?

13.5/14mm isn't really an option. So how to keep good atomization without ditching the pump and losing dynamic timing?

I guess rpms are also a limitation but you don't have problems with spool :)
 

JFettig

Vendor
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Aug 18, 2010
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Blaine, MN
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B5 Passat, 2010 Jetta
Ruben, how much fuel is left with your setup? Is that 270 whp or bhp that you got out of your ALH hybrid motor?
 

Rub87

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Belgium
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Ibiza '99 90HP
bhp.. whp is useless to compare on diff dyno.. pump is fully open after 3250 rpm
 

Rub87

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Belgium
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Ibiza '99 90HP
nope, not reversed..

if I go to a dyno with 2 rollers or with one roller I can already see up to 20-30hp difference at speeds above 200kph. if I do not measure this losses, so only know the whp I cannot compare..

If I do measure this losses and add them to the measured power at the rolls, I know bhp (or at least the power to the wheel with taken in account the losses from the tyres on the rolls) so then normally when all is done well I should be able to run tyres or rolls with different friction properties and still come to approx the same calculated bhp
 

NoJoke

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Apr 11, 2003
how did you think of increasing pressure? custom camplate? 13/14mm head?

thhat there is a haze with only 1000 degF proves atomisation or bowl/swirl is poor.. cr engine runs lambda 1.05 with very light haze, over 900 degC egt
Ruben I understand what you're saying and that could be the reason for low EGT's. My theory is that there is too much air going through; hence larger nozzles = more power.

I didn't mind going with a custom 13/14mm head but not this late in the game...I would've spent $1k if there was a proven manufacturer.
 

Rub87

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Belgium
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Ibiza '99 90HP
easiest and most reliable way out would be commonrail, pistons and nozzles, are all pnp from the crafter.. just the wiring and ecu might be a bit tricky, but in the end it will for sure pay off
 

NoJoke

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Apr 11, 2003
easiest and most reliable way out would be commonrail, pistons and nozzles, are all pnp from the crafter.. just the wiring and ecu might be a bit tricky, but in the end it will for sure pay off
We'll leave that for TDIsyncro:D

Hope someone from DFIS(current pump is set by them) can chime in here and give us an approximate sweet point:)
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
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nope, not reversed..

if I go to a dyno with 2 rollers or with one roller I can already see up to 20-30hp difference at speeds above 200kph. if I do not measure this losses, so only know the whp I cannot compare..

If I do measure this losses and add them to the measured power at the rolls, I know bhp (or at least the power to the wheel with taken in account the losses from the tyres on the rolls) so then normally when all is done well I should be able to run tyres or rolls with different friction properties and still come to approx the same calculated bhp
I agree with your premise of different WHP numbers measured based on different number of rollers, etc., but I respectfully do not on the part of where you take these differences to arrive to a calculation that arrive to the more-or-less the same result at the crank. If Dyno A and B give different WHP results, it is more accurate to try to correlate those variances to a corrected, maybe composite value while still at the wheel, rather than to take both results and back-calculate using factors and arriving at a figure at the crank. The reason is that error and uncertainty ALWAYS and inevitably stack-up as you go through more transformations. In your approach, you would be taking wheel power, which is already - as we perfectly agree - notoriously subject to variance, and stacking up the uncertainties posed by tire deformation, driveline friction, slip, etc., to get to a crank HP figure.

At the end of the day, the power that is transmitted from the tire treads to the street pavement are what gets you from point A to B in a given time, so correct WHP is much more consistently and precisely correlable to real performance than whatever the engine is putting out and being divided/dissipated through the drivetrain. Talking (accurate) WHP also puts a decisive stop to the testosterone-induced but mindless talk about "my engine makes moar powaah than urz" because the buck stops when the light turns green and we don't have to debate about 300 HP TDIs that can't even break into the 13's on the 1/4 mile - much less in the low- to mid-12's where it should be capable, assuming 3000# - despite all the excuses, "I had no traction mang.. I wuz spinnin the wheels AND slipping the clutch on every gear from start to finish!" :) Physics can be such a b!tch sometimes. :D

This further reinforces why I believe there is some merit of getting more than one set of results from different dynos, knowing how notoriously susceptible they are variations between different installations.
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Well, clearly just adding a fart can and a bleacher seat to the rear end of your car will give more street creds to your ride anyways! :p
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
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Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
I think you are understanding it wrong. you know the rolls on its own have a certain inertia and resistance.. or atleast with a decent dyno this should be calibrated and known (some dynos also estimate the inertia of the wheels of the car, but this is usueally marginal comapred to the inertia of the dyno rolls), then you bring the rolls with the car on them to a certain speed and you put the gearbox in neutral, so the only thing slowing the rolls down now is resistance (known dyno roll resistance, tyres to roll, wheel brearings, brake, gearbox etc etc).

Now you measure the gradient of the drop in speed and from this its nothing but simple mathematics to calculate the losses or loss torque for a given roll rpm. then after the roll came almost to a standstill you add this to the previously results you obtained from acceleration the roll and eventually the extra resistance torque applied by a brake.

Some older 2 roll dynos (like the pre historic superflow unit we had in school) use a simple speed adjustable AC motor with torque cell to drive the rolls, then you just drive lets say from 0 50 100 150 200 kph, and you measure in these 4 points the torque (power) needed to maintain this speed/rpm, afterwards when you then use the brake to load the car, the curve that was previously measured is added to the torque/power that is braked.

In this very same dyno (rolls look much like a brake testing device) it takes around 50hp to maintian 220kph, this is why after some high speed pulls the tyres need to cool down quite a bit. running the same car on a new superflow with 48"rolls it takes only a few hp to run at that speed.. hence the small dual roll dynos become less and less popular..

so it is clear if you would only comapre whp, it would give you an error of roughly 20-40hp at rated power in 4th gear
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
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My point is, Ruben, if you have bad results at the wheel, you're also going to have bad - even worse - results working back to the crank, no matter what mathematical acrobatics you do. I actually don't disagree with you, it seems we're simply coming from different ends and talking around each other but not disagreeing in any fundamental thing.

We can resume our debate about dyno measurement methodologies and crank HP derivation here. My apologies to Gus for high-jacking his thread off to this tangent.
 

Rub87

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Belgium
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Ibiza '99 90HP
ok.. =)

Are you guys atm running the pump fully open or is there still something left? I still dont know why my stuped pump lets off at high rpm, are you guuys also experiencing something similar?
 

andy2

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Sep 24, 2004
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Bowmanville,Ontario,Canada
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13 Jetta,94 Golf drag car 585bhp,Samurai buggy BHW 300bhp,97 Ram cummins
The only bottleneck is the inj pump.It doesn't matter what nozzles or turbo(s)/boost is used.The rotary inj pump can only keep full fueling on till around 3000 engine rpm approximately.They can be made to flow more than enough fuel but not at the RPM we desire.

Its hard to make a big turbo setup fueled if FULL fueling cuts off after 2800-3000 rpm.
 

Rub87

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Belgium
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Ibiza '99 90HP
and where is the limitation? plunjer float? caviation? what if one would feed the head with a high pressure source (power steering pump or equivalent) at the shutoff solenoid hole?
 

v8 coupe

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bloomington, mn
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09 rabbit 2.5L Gas
to me it seems you need more then one piston. Something closer to a VP indesign. With 2 pistons you would reduce the load from each and thus should be able to move more fuel at pressure. But I can not back this with fact or anything more then my crude understanding of how these work.
 

andy2

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and where is the limitation? plunjer float? caviation? what if one would feed the head with a high pressure source (power steering pump or equivalent) at the shutoff solenoid hole?

Could be a factor of all of those limitations.v8 coupe hit the nail on the head.Its just too much to ask of one pumping plunger at higher rpm.2 would be better or 4 would be best.PD or common rail would be the only other way to make it work other than using an inline style inj pump on the current engine.
 
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