Tsi engines

jason_

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Seeing their chain drive and maintenence interval show absolutely nothing of chain and tensioner replacement (updated or not), what's a good milesge to expect, especially for those who don't have vcds?

I'm under the assumption the cleaner the oil the longer the parts might last..sooner oci? 7k?

Opinion?

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w123houston

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i had a 2013 audi allroad with a 2.0t TFSI motor. audi recommended a 10k oci and didnt provide a dipstick. only a silly oil level check in the mmi. however, one can work around that issue and still monitor oil quality with a proper dipstick. i noticed the oil started looking dirty around the 7k mark and typically changed the oil at 7-7.5k. they are turbo motors so oil quality is critical
 

2.2TDI

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Some will say that you should eventually change the chain, guides and tensioners and others won't... Like anything mechanical, it will eventually wear... How fast? Who knows. As long as I don't hear any rattles or changes in engine performance I won't touch it. Oil change intervals I do every 6k, but only because I drive 10k a year... If I was driving more I'd be doing the factory recommended intervals at 10k
 

jason_

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Yeah, there's not alot of documentation. But if carbon deposits are getting in the oil, hence the darker color, and if they don't specify a mileage to replace it, I would just assume clean oil shouldn't hurt anything. Metal on metal with not perfectly clean lubrication, as minimal it might be, is still something...

Ecs tuning has filter and oil kits for $37. Really can't go wrong with a piece of mind 3k sooner...

14 changes vs 10 over 100k miles.

Whats $170 over several months to possibly eliminate premature failure?

Doesn't really change my intentions, more or less wanted some possible personal experience and advice.

I do plan to measure and check stretch with vcds every oil change.



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2.2TDI

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the carbon deposit on the valves is the thing that is inevitable and has me worried the most quite frankly... it's not really a big deal as the valves just need to be cleaned st some point, it's just the pain in the ass of having to do the cleaning... I hope i'll still be under warranty when that day comes because at least I won't have to do the first one. Also, there unfortunately is nothing that can be done to prevent it... some will say oil catch cans, higher octane fuel, low evaporation oil, blah blah but in reality these tsi engines need direct injection AND multi port, which of course most tsi engines in Europe get, but not here in north america :rolleyes:
 

jason_

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Carbon deposit on intakes sounds like a generic direct injected headache, no matter who makes it.


So back to the timing chain, of the tsi

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2.2TDI

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Carbon deposit on intakes sounds like a generic direct injected headache, no matter who makes it.


So back to the timing chain, of the tsi

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Like I said I wouldn't worry about the chain. Have a look on mk7forums for more info...
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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New oil is NOT clean oil. The sizes of particles that do any damage are not visible to the naked eye. Any discoloration is just thermal effects and dilution of deposits in the oil that are not filterable as they are effectively dissolved.

If you want to know what is going on with your oil - do oil analysis. Changing it at 7k vs 10k without any data to justify it won't do anything but make you feel good and may actually cause MORE damage to your engine since it's probably dirtier than the oil you're draining out. You can likely go much longer than 10k if you have the data to justify it. They need to put something in the owners manual for people to follow.
 

2.2TDI

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New oil is NOT clean oil. The sizes of particles that do any damage are not visible to the naked eye. Any discoloration is just thermal effects and dilution of deposits in the oil that are not filterable as they are effectively dissolved.

If you want to know what is going on with your oil - do oil analysis. Changing it at 7k vs 10k without any data to justify it won't do anything but make you feel good and may actually cause MORE damage to your engine since it's probably dirtier than the oil you're draining out. You can likely go much longer than 10k if you have the data to justify it. They need to put something in the owners manual for people to follow.
Now this is something I've never heard of until today... I'm not agreeing or disagreeing as I don't have sufficient knowledge on this topic. But, from the point of view of the owners manual, if you only drive 2000 miles a year, and the owners manual suggests oil changes every 10000 miles OR 1 year, isn't it for good reason? I was under the impression that mileage isn't the main proponent of oil life and that time, based on what kind oil you're using, is a major factor also.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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It's engine oil, not milk - it won't go bad by just sitting there.

To avoid becoming too complicated, my opinion is that the owners manual is simplified and conservative to protect VW in warranty situations.

2000 miles in a year, 2 miles at a time is a lot different than 2000 miles in a year 500 miles at a time. They're not going to put all this detail in the owners manual.
 

2.2TDI

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It's engine oil, not milk - it won't go bad by just sitting there.

To avoid becoming too complicated, my opinion is that the owners manual is simplified and conservative to protect VW in warranty situations.

2000 miles in a year, 2 miles at a time is a lot different than 2000 miles in a year 500 miles at a time. They're not going to put all this detail in the owners manual.
Well I agree that oil is not milk and clearly in other parts of the world vw even suggests longer intervals (Europe is 2 years or 30000km based on using vw long life oil, which from what I know is 504/507 spec meaning the CR tdis here should be rated for that interval in North America, but their not...)

Then yes you have factors like climate and driving conditions which will effect the life of the oil too. Anyways... I'm sure this can be debated all day
 

jason_

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Whoa here!



........ New oil is NOT clean oil. ..... may actually cause MORE damage to your engine since it's probably dirtier than the oil you're draining out.
The new shelf bought oil might be dirtier then what I'm draining out?


I'll need to compute this before commenting...

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jason_

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Yeah, no compute.


I want to read some articles. Can you post anything regarding fresh bought oil is less clean then what comes out of an engine that's had some mileage on it?



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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Those engines have a LOT of problems, even if they finally did at least make some improvements to the crappy chain drive. I think you'll find lots of other things to be concerned about long before it needs a chain (and in many cases, long before the diesels would have needed a belt).
 

jason_

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Well yeah, but now I'm intrigued on the possibility all that oil I see sitting at the parts store in jugs is more dirty then what I drain out with 10k on it..

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2.2TDI

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Those engines have a LOT of problems, even if they finally did at least make some improvements to the crappy chain drive. I think you'll find lots of other things to be concerned about long before it needs a chain (and in many cases, long before the diesels would have needed a belt).
I don't know... Haven't heard of many blowing up yet. I'll let you know if mine ever does (probably won't)
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I don't know... Haven't heard of many blowing up yet. I'll let you know if mine ever does (probably won't)

I have replaced about 50 EA888 engines, and sent about 100 more out of here on a tow truck. VERY common. I've got an Audi Q5 here that is on its second engine, at 85k miles.... the first was replaced at 60k.

But usually the more commonplace issues are rear main seals, breather control valves, intake port gunking, INTAKES, turbochargers (for a variety of things, usually wastegate linkage wear or outright breakage/seizure), and of course, the water pump housings cracking.

And while the newest versions (phase in starting around 2014, depends on model) changed some of these items, they still have problems. I have already had 2015/16 GTIs in here with leaking water pumps with less than 25k miles on the clock. Also oil use is seemingly random but common enough that diligent dipstick use and/or oil level sensor use is required.

The old ignition coils failed.... but were relatively cheap. The new ignition coils fail less, but weld themselves to the valve cover, often requiring replacement when the spark plugs are due. I have gotten *pretty good* at getting them out with patience and crab spray, but sometimes they still break, despite the fancy tools available.
 

jason_

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Whoa hey...

This oil thing...

I want some articles shared.

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2.2TDI

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I have replaced about 50 EA888 engines, and sent about 100 more out of here on a tow truck. VERY common. I've got an Audi Q5 here that is on its second engine, at 85k miles.... the first was replaced at 60k.
But usually the more commonplace issues are rear main seals, breather control valves, intake port gunking, INTAKES, turbochargers (for a variety of things, usually wastegate linkage wear or outright breakage/seizure), and of course, the water pump housings cracking.
And while the newest versions (phase in starting around 2014, depends on model) changed some of these items, they still have problems. I have already had 2015/16 GTIs in here with leaking water pumps with less than 25k miles on the clock. Also oil use is seemingly random but common enough that diligent dipstick use and/or oil level sensor use is required.
The old ignition coils failed.... but were relatively cheap. The new ignition coils fail less, but weld themselves to the valve cover, often requiring replacement when the spark plugs are due. I have gotten *pretty good* at getting them out with patience and crab spray, but sometimes they still break, despite the fancy tools available.
Wait a minute, are we talking EA888 gen 1, 2 or 3? As far as i'm concerned the EA888 gen 3 is MUCH better then the previous two and shouldn't be discarded as automatically being a bad engine... As far as I know very early revisions of the gen 3 turbos were known to fail but that problem was rectified in later models, otherwise the only other issue I've read about is the water pump failure.

Look if we want to nitpick on every small detail then I can tell you so many things wrong with every single engine (TDIs and diesels have their fair share of problems too), you might as well just walk or take the bus.
 
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2.2TDI

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Whoa hey...

This oil thing...

I want some articles shared.

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Doubt you'll get any... if you want to do changes at 7k based on your driving habits that's up to you. I do mine at 6k based on my driving habits... The owners manual is there for a reason and if I can be given empirical evidence that what I'm doing is bad and the owners manual is wrong (for the most part) then i'll stop and follow whatever the supposed correct procedure is.
 

showdown 42

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Does anyone use a carbon deposit fuel additive to help prevent the issue? It would seem logical to use something like Red Line.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Wait a minute, are we talking EA888 gen 1, 2 or 3? As far as i'm concerned the EA888 gen 3 is MUCH better then the previous two and shouldn't be discarded as automatically being a bad engine... As far as I know very early revisions of the gen 3 turbos were known to fail but that problem was rectified in later models, otherwise the only other issue I've read about is the water pump failure.

Look if we want to nitpick on every small detail then I can tell you so many things wrong with every single engine (TDIs and diesels have their fair share of problems too), you might as well just walk or take the bus.

I am speaking of all of them (read my post again). I am NOT nitpicking. The only reason the newest ones (again, like I said, phase in starting in 2014 depending on model) have not had as much problems is simply because they haven't been on the road as long. The crappy dumbass rear main seal design is STILL the exact same. The water pump is only slightly different, and WE'VE ALREADY seen those failing. Breather system is only slightly different, and WE'VE ALREADY seen those failing.

When you have to explain to someone why their 3 year old car needs its transmission pulled out, and it is out of warranty, trust me, there is no nitpicking. :mad:





By the way, the trade magazine "Der Fix" this month has several good articles about these all too common issues with EA888 engines.

And yes, there are certainly issues with diesel engines, but different issues, and largely limited to the newer stuff. You won't ever, EVER, see an ALH, BEW, BHW, or BRM blow a rear main seal apart, because they have a normal designed seal. You won't ever see one have a timing chain tensioner make noise, or a cam phaser block stick and cause a wallet destroying scenario because those engines do not have those pieces to fail. They also do not have some idiotic plastic water pump housing bolted to the side of the block buried under the intake.
 
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Matt-98AHU

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Does anyone use a carbon deposit fuel additive to help prevent the issue? It would seem logical to use something like Red Line.
Unless the additive makes the fuel soot much less in a direct injected engine, I can't see a fuel additive being very helpful. It's not being sprayed directly onto the valves to help clean them.

But, since it is an issue caused by two separate components, I'm sure there are products that can help reduce the rate at which they clog. Certainly driving the vehicle harder also helps. At idle and low engine speeds, there's little velocity to prevent carbon from sticking to the ports. What's more, the intake camshaft is the only one on these engines that has variable timing. And it gets advanced like crazy under low loads so there's more overlap, which allows sooty exhaust to burp back up into the intake ports and contributing greatly to the issue, this is done primarily for emissions reasons, this effectively gives the engine an EGR-like effect without actually needing an EGR valve.

The harder you drive it, the more the computer is going to retard the cam timing so there's less overlap, less soot burping back into the intake, plus you'll have the throttle plate opened wider and the turbo providing boost pressure, and that increase in velocity and air volume will make it more difficult to stick to the intake valves and ports. It'll also help seat the rings, which will cut down on oil consumption, which these engines are notorious for.

So, keep oil in it and drive it hard and you should have fewer issues in that regard.

The other thing to try is a different oil. Since oil vapors are part of what's coming in direct contact with the intake ports and valves, your selection of oil, how easily it turns into a vapor and how it chemically reacts with carbon/soot plays a huge role. There have been a couple engine oils out there proven to greatly cut down on the intake carbon issue, but they're not easy to find nor are they cheap. Some searching on some VW/Audi gasser forums as well as Bobistheoilguy.com might reveal that both Red Line's original high ester/Group V basestock oils are very good in this regard as well as the renewable oils by a company called RLI. Some interesting reading to be had there.

Beyond that, oilhammer's assessment is on the money for these engines. They have many common issues. There's a few more I could add he hasn't listed, some of which were a small rash of failures on a specific model year that the dealer guys mostly took care of under warranty. A couple years ago there was a run of 1.8TSIs that were snapping the back of the exhaust cam that drives the vacuum pump and fuel HPFP for example.

When they're running right, they do drive nice with excellent torque delivery and return reasonable fuel economy--for a gasser. But I'd be wary about taking one on a cross country road trip like I have done a couple of my TDIs. Too many oddball freak failures without warning for my liking. In particular the timing chain and water pump issues.
 

2.2TDI

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I am speaking of all of them (read my post again). I am NOT nitpicking. The only reason the newest ones (again, like I said, phase in starting in 2014 depending on model) have not had as much problems is simply because they haven't been on the road as long. The crappy dumbass rear main seal design is STILL the exact same. The water pump is only slightly different, and WE'VE ALREADY seen those failing. Breather system is only slightly different, and WE'VE ALREADY seen those failing.

When you have to explain to someone why their 3 year old car needs its transmission pulled out, and it is out of warranty, trust me, there is no nitpicking. :mad:





By the way, the trade magazine "Der Fix" this month has several good articles about these all too common issues with EA888 engines.

And yes, there are certainly issues with diesel engines, but different issues, and largely limited to the newer stuff. You won't ever, EVER, see an ALH, BEW, BHW, or BRM blow a rear main seal apart, because they have a normal designed seal. You won't ever see one have a timing chain tensioner make noise, or a cam phaser block stick and cause a wallet destroying scenario because those engines do not have those pieces to fail. They also do not have some idiotic plastic water pump housing bolted to the side of the block buried under the intake.
I have yet to run into any of the issues you speak of in the gen 3, along with many other people who own one of the two gen 3 engines. Time will tell but i'm not worried or paranoid like some...
 
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Matt-98AHU

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I have yet to run into any of the issues you speak of in the gen 3, along with many other people who own one of the two gen 3 engines. Time will tell but i'm not worried or paranoid like some...
Consider yourself lucky. Oilhammer does have a much larger sample size for these failures because it's what he does for a living. I've seen them too, just not as much because I don't work on them near as frequent since I left the dealer. But I can confirm that problems were ever present even on the gen 3s as they came out, and even a few more that independent guys like Oilhammer likely would not have seen as early stop sales and recalls/updates were performed at dealers while these cars were young so indie guys rarely saw some of the other issues.

We had a recall over the fuel rail potentially causing a leak on the first run of gen 3 2015 Mk7 GTIs, then it spread to 1.8 TSIs. Also note the aforementioned exhaust camshaft snapping the back piece of the cam that drives the HPFP and vacuum pump on a run of 1.8 TSIs.

I was replacing water pumps under warranty on cars with less than 10,000 miles on them.

There have been numerous revisions of that plastic POS, and they still fail.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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Yeah, no compute.


I want to read some articles. Can you post anything regarding fresh bought oil is less clean then what comes out of an engine that's had some mileage on it?



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Here's an article

https://www.efficientplantmag.com/2008/07/how-clean-is-the-new-oil-in-your-equipment/

I have (somewhere) oil analysis of new and used oil from my TDI that had particle counts showing that the new oil was within one ISO code (see article) of the used oil with more than 10k miles on it. I've spent an hour looking and can't come up with it right now - If I find it, I'll share. I've also done several particle counts on new oils for shops and they don't come back "clean"

Look in the bottom of the jug next time after it's empty and see how much stuff is down there. There's usually a few particles you can see (and many you can't).

The particles that do much of the damage are in the 5-15 micron range which is right around what bearing clearances and oil films are. These are not visible to the human eye. Particles (like soot) that are <1 micron and don't pose any real issue. Anything you can see (typically >40 micron) is much bigger than most of the clearances and just can't get in to cause much damage. The risk with larger particles is that they get broken down into smaller ones (see above). Most engine oil filters are in the 15-20 micron range so the larger particles won't continually get recirculated. Filters also increase efficiency the more plugged they get (they're not absolute devices) so changing that also reduces it's effectiveness. The filters are generally oversized for cold start conditions that they never get near plugged during normal service. If they do, there's other bigger problems.

You can have perfectly clear looking oil that will destroy an engine and black oil that is amazingly clean - how it visually looks is not a great indicator of cleanliness. If you can see it, there's already a big problem.

I know most of the above is just me sharing my experiences and you don't have to believe me. There is so little real data on this subject and so much emotion that it's nearly an impossible task to change someone's mind. If you want to do it right, you'll need about 10 oil analysis kits that include an ISO particle count, some patience and understanding of what the data will tell you and how to interpret it. It's not a simple black and white/good or bad topic.

Change your oil, send in a sample along with a sample of new oil making sure you use proper oil sampling procedures.
At 5k miles, do it again, repeating the new oil sample again (preferably from the same container). If it comes back unacceptably dirty in your opinion, then you need to either reduce your OCI or eliminate the source of contamination. If it's good, then do another at 7.5k, and again at 10k, 15k, 20k, etc until the DATA shows that the oil is breaking down, it's getting too dirty, etc. If the new oil samples come back with significantly different results and you've been following good sample prep procedures, then it's time to call out the lab and ask them to explain the discrepancy. This is not cheap nor easy to do. You'll probably have $500 and many hours learning about how to interpret wear analysis, ISO codes, etc.

I went through all this on my car and run 20+k OCI's and have more/less zero contamination related wear, though I run a 1micron bypass filter as well.

One last point on oil analysis - getting ones that provide an ISO code is a bit more difficult, and sometimes cost more money. Most just do an IR scan of wear metals and that's it. By the time you have wear metals showing up in your oil - it's too late - damage is done. If the oil is clean (and assuming the engine was designed correctly) then there won't be any wear metals to see. Particle contamination will always proceed wear metals, so make sure it's clean and there's not much to worry about.
 

2.2TDI

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Consider yourself lucky. Oilhammer does have a much larger sample size for these failures because it's what he does for a living. I've seen them too, just not as much because I don't work on them near as frequent since I left the dealer. But I can confirm that problems were ever present even on the gen 3s as they came out, and even a few more that independent guys like Oilhammer likely would not have seen as early stop sales and recalls/updates were performed at dealers while these cars were young so indie guys rarely saw some of the other issues.
We had a recall over the fuel rail potentially causing a leak on the first run of gen 3 2015 Mk7 GTIs, then it spread to 1.8 TSIs. Also note the aforementioned exhaust camshaft snapping the back piece of the cam that drives the HPFP and vacuum pump on a run of 1.8 TSIs.
I was replacing water pumps under warranty on cars with less than 10,000 miles on them.
There have been numerous revisions of that plastic POS, and they still fail.

Maybe lucky, maybe not. The exhaust camshaft issue was not very widespread and was mostly on 2014 jettas that got the very first batch of Gen 3 motors (as far as I know). My 2015 is a July 2014 registration date and the build date a couple months prior to that... It was never effected by the camshaft recall...only recall it had was for the fuel leak as you stated.

OK so the gen3 has had a few recalls...so what? Do you want me to sit here and tell you how many recalls honda has had? I see it everyday working in warranty... Not just recalls, but many service bulletins and failures of certain components over and over again you'd think they'd have learned over the years... It makes it seem like Honda's are less less reliable then VW's given all the problems I have seen.

I can sit back and say well given what I see everyday in warranty, all the other Honda's on the road are bound to have that specific component break... But I don't because that's stigmatizing thousands upon thousands of Honda's on the road for a relatively small sample size that I come across. Same thing is applied to the gen3 engine... Sure the water pump may be a weak point, not disagreeing, but that doesn't mean EVERY SINGLE ONE must break at some point :rolleyes:

Just curious, there must be at least a TSB for gen3 engines if the water pumps are failing so often.
 

jason_

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Here's an article

https://www.efficientplantmag.com/2008/07/how-clean-is-the-new-oil-in-your-equipment/

I have (somewhere) oil analysis of new and used oil from my TDI that had particle counts showing that the new oil was within one ISO code (see article) of the used oil with more than 10k miles on it. I've spent an hour looking and can't come up with it right now - If I find it, I'll share. I've also done several particle counts on new oils for shops and they don't come back "clean"

Look in the bottom of the jug next time after it's empty and see how much stuff is down there. There's usually a few particles you can see (and many you can't).

The particles that do much of the damage are in the 5-15 micron range which is right around what bearing clearances and oil films are. These are not visible to the human eye. Particles (like soot) that are <1 micron and don't pose any real issue. Anything you can see (typically >40 micron) is much bigger than most of the clearances and just can't get in to cause much damage. The risk with larger particles is that they get broken down into smaller ones (see above). Most engine oil filters are in the 15-20 micron range so the larger particles won't continually get recirculated. Filters also increase efficiency the more plugged they get (they're not absolute devices) so changing that also reduces it's effectiveness. The filters are generally oversized for cold start conditions that they never get near plugged during normal service. If they do, there's other bigger problems.

You can have perfectly clear looking oil that will destroy an engine and black oil that is amazingly clean - how it visually looks is not a great indicator of cleanliness. If you can see it, there's already a big problem.

I know most of the above is just me sharing my experiences and you don't have to believe me. There is so little real data on this subject and so much emotion that it's nearly an impossible task to change someone's mind. If you want to do it right, you'll need about 10 oil analysis kits that include an ISO particle count, some patience and understanding of what the data will tell you and how to interpret it. It's not a simple black and white/good or bad topic.

Change your oil, send in a sample along with a sample of new oil making sure you use proper oil sampling procedures.
At 5k miles, do it again, repeating the new oil sample again (preferably from the same container). If it comes back unacceptably dirty in your opinion, then you need to either reduce your OCI or eliminate the source of contamination. If it's good, then do another at 7.5k, and again at 10k, 15k, 20k, etc until the DATA shows that the oil is breaking down, it's getting too dirty, etc. If the new oil samples come back with significantly different results and you've been following good sample prep procedures, then it's time to call out the lab and ask them to explain the discrepancy. This is not cheap nor easy to do. You'll probably have $500 and many hours learning about how to interpret wear analysis, ISO codes, etc.

I went through all this on my car and run 20+k OCI's and have more/less zero contamination related wear, though I run a 1micron bypass filter as well.

One last point on oil analysis - getting ones that provide an ISO code is a bit more difficult, and sometimes cost more money. Most just do an IR scan of wear metals and that's it. By the time you have wear metals showing up in your oil - it's too late - damage is done. If the oil is clean (and assuming the engine was designed correctly) then there won't be any wear metals to see. Particle contamination will always proceed wear metals, so make sure it's clean and there's not much to worry about.
Here's a main bearing out of my engine with 20k OCI's and 170k miles, 6000+ RPM runs, 11mm pump, nozzles/turbo, etc

Very nice write up. Does make sense. Would brand of oil made any difference?

And nice babbitt shine, that's not a switch-a-roo is it? the top bearing in the cap? ;)

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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I have yet to run into any of the issues you speak of in the gen 3, along with many other people who own one of the two gen 3 engines. Time will tell but i'm not worried or paranoid like some...
I am not paranoid, I don't own one... LOL.... I drive an ALH every day. 542k miles, no worries here. :D
 
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