Jumped timing

jswol

Active member
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Location
california
TDI
2003 jetta
My 2003 Jetta TDI appeared to jump timing. Now need head work and high mileage timing belt work done. Local TDI club approved mechanic says $5,000. I about fell over but that is because I have never had to have any major work done. Not sure if a car with 325,000 miles is worth 5,000 worth of work. Any opinions on price? Getting the work done? Selling it as is?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Yep, that is why proper timing belt PM is so important.

Tough to say for sure what is involved until the head is off. I have one here that was trashed so bad it is getting another engine.

$5000 seems a bit on the high side unless there is more going on than what you have told us. Give a break down of the expected costs (parts and labor) and you can get better feedback.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Not much for that.
Might want to break it down.
1. Timing belt and appurtenances-$800+/-
2. Head work- What's it need?
 

jswol

Active member
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Location
california
TDI
2003 jetta
So that was a quote unseen. Quoted for a remanufactured VW head and the labor for that and the timing belt. Autowerkstat in San Jose CA.
 

jswol

Active member
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Location
california
TDI
2003 jetta
His first reply when asked for a quote.

I have a 03 golf tdi that got towed in here friday for same problem. Teeth sheared off belt, valves bent
His estimate is approx $5k with reman head from vw. It is the only vw reman available.
The cost would vary with head repair costs
I lost my good machinist..so now Im looking for a replacement guy
these are getting harder and harder to source for reliable
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Well, it is all speculation really.

Usually, a valve job and the car is back in business. I have our machine shop do those, no problems. However, in some cases the head is so trashed it simply cannot be salvaged, and will require a replacement. And in those cases, quite often a piston, or pistons are trashed, and a rod or rods are bent. Then, if the engine can be fixed in the car, you are talking about a set of pistons and rods, a head, bearings, bolts, gaskets, timing belt kit, etc.

I have had them trash a crankshaft if the rod bends in such a way as it gouges up the rod journal. You can also gouge up the cylinder wall beyond what a simple hone can clean up.

Then the cost of the parts can vary. New? Used? Reconditioned? From where? These prices can vary all over the map.
 

Yblocker

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Location
Oakland, CA
TDI
1997 Passat
If it were me, I'd contact Matt Phelan at Diesel Autowerks in San Anselmo.
He is probably the best TDI guy in the SF Bay Area.
 

coalminer16

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
Location
Central Wisconsin
TDI
Golf 2004
Really need to take the head off to know more. You got the answers you can here until then. There is enough good used engines that that may be a better option. That is what I am working on with an 04 jetta. But still need a timing belt for replacement engine. Good luck. 5k seems high unless keeping the original engine that is mostly trashed. That said better to estimate high and come in cheaper then the other way.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Might want to consider, if you're not too attached to your car, picking up another one and selling this one (parts car). Sale of existing might net you $1,000, so add that to say $3k for what the job might cost (I'm using a pretty ballpark figure, probably on the conservative side) and you're looking at a replacement cost of $2k. Of course, if you go with something else then you're going to deal with, possibly, a lot of new unknowns (I'd probably want a car with at least a more recently refreshed TB).

This is going to be a tough call. Likely going to end up spending a lot of time managing this situation to a full resolution.
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
Yeah, you can't get a quote from someone without examination on this, and if you insist on one you're going to get a $5,000 quote. It's what I'd tell you too.

Why? Because if I tell you $2,000, and there is cylinder damage, I'm going to eat $3,000. Thus if the head's not off in my shop the quote is $5 large.

The odds are good the head needs rework but is reusable. $1,000 or so for that. Plus a timing belt kit and labor to install it. The usual shop price for a timing belt job is in the $1k range; the PROPER kit is about $400 + supplies (e.g. coolant, etc) and it's ~6 hours of book time to do so you're pushing $1,000. With that many miles the odds are high the front main is leaking and should be replaced, and I'd consider the oil pump guide and chain if the front main IS leaking, so add for that too since if it breaks your engine is toast (another hour or maybe two in labor, and a couple hundred more in parts.)

It's also very possible at that mileage that when I get the head off I don't like the cylinder bore condition even if there's no rod or piston crown damage at which point the price goes up quite a lot, especially if the cylinders are not round and thus can't be simply honed and the pistons re-ringed.

The car is worth little not running -- basically it's a part-out. Assuming it's a MT so there's value in the gearbox, engine accessories and maybe some value in the interior and modules. I think at this age and miles I'd part it out if I had the space, or sell it "as-is, broken timing belt" if not.
 
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Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
Only if you're doing the work yourself AND that assumes the bores are ok. Parts for timing belt change + piston/rod set + head work and "must replace" bolts and such can be had for $2k without shaving corners (e.g. no chineesium garbage), but that cost is with you turning the wrenches and it's a couple of day job. Bill that time at shop labor rates and tell me what you come up with.

This is an engine with 300,000+ miles on it. I could not give you any sort of real estimate on the cost to fix it until the head is off and I can take a few measurements and look at things.

If I DO fix it for you as a shop owner I then have to be willing to stand behind it running ok for at least the next year or so (e.g. 12/12k miles), which I CANNOT DO without a decent internal inspection FIRST.

IMHO this is an economic total. Yes, you can fix it, and if you can fix it YOURSELF then I'd probably do it simply because as you noted about $2k for parts is where you're LIKELY to wind up, and I can find out for $0 if I have a nightmare since it doesn't cost me anything but time to take the head off.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
This is likely going to cost $500 (figure towing) just to get a reasonable idea of the damage. Some of this money would be part of the overall repair cost, but only if a repair is undertaken. The issue, then, is whether one wants to risk $500 to find out.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
His estimate is approx $5k with reman head from vw. It is the only vw reman available.
Not sure what this means. Keep in mind you can buy a new head for under $1,000. If the bottom end is OK (and often it is) then you could have a new head and timing belt system purchased and installed for around $2K.

Is it worth it? That's up to the condition of the rest of the car and how you feel about it. I put a new factory long block in my '02 Wagon with 295K on it, but it was in good condition, I'd just had all the rust repaired under warranty, and I'm very, very fond of the car. Maybe not the best economic decision but it's what I wanted.
 

jswol

Active member
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Location
california
TDI
2003 jetta
The car is in good shape otherwise. I was getting 49 MPG on that thing and I enjoy the heck out of it. I have a truck and trailer so getting it places is not a cost item besides gas. I am going to pull the head to see whats a doin. Fortunately when it happened it was at very low speed between stop lights. Not sure if that matters much.
 

jswol

Active member
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Location
california
TDI
2003 jetta
I take reman head as remanufactured head from the VW dealer. Not sure what more that would mean.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
If you can pop the head then you'll be able to get to the assessment point cheaply. Given that you say you were driving slowly then that would tend to hold more promise of this being relegated to only the top end: send head to Franko6, get head back, install (along with new TB), drive on in to the sunset (for probably under $2k).
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
At this age of vehicle it's not worth the rebuild unless you can do it yourself and save the labor costs. If this is not feasible, you would be better off using that money to get a good used one and sell the car to someone else or part it out. There are plenty of these cars out there still.
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
What Jokila said.

If you can do the work yourself then pull the head, inspect everything (check piston protrusion to make sure you don't have bent rods and inspect the bores for condition -- no point in putting a fixed cylinder head on a trashed engine) and if you're good there then buy a timing belt kit and send the head off to Frank06.

You're into the car at that point for about $1500; if you find the main seal leaking (probably) then pull the pan and do the oil pump chain and tensioner at the same time since you have to take the front sprocket off and at that point dropping the pan is pretty-much all that's left. Inspect the oil pump but odds are good it's ok with just the chain and tensioner being worn. That's still right near $2k in parts.

But, this assumes you're doing the work. It's a couple of days worth of work and assumes you have or can borrow the special tools for the timing belt job.

If not then IMHO I'd part it out, get the $1k or so you can out of it and call it a day. There's no way I'd put $5,000 into the vehicle; you can buy a running one with a recent timing belt job, documented, for that money. Hell, for $5k you could probably talk my kid out of hers and it has a brand new belt in it that I put in about 6-7,000 miles back -- and 100,000 fewer miles... oh, and it's a wagon too.

There's no economic argument AT ALL for putting that sort of cash into the vehicle. For $2k, in short, I'd probably fix it. For $5? I'd sell it for $1k and buy another one if you still like the vehicle itself.
 
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jswol

Active member
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Location
california
TDI
2003 jetta
Shoot if you were closer to California I would take you up on the wagon. It comes down to money. I have more time than money and have somewhat decent mechanical skills and aptitude. Ill keep you guys posted in what I find. I appreciate all of your input and expertise. And now learning the hard way, PM on your timing belt everyone!!!
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
If you have the time (and a place to work) then the decision is easy; drain the cooling system, remove the timing belt components you can get to without yanking the engine mount (they gotta come off anyway; let the belt hang over the mount) and pull the head.

If the damage is confined to the head and your inspection of the piston protrusion and bore condition is that the block and pistons are ok (and even perhaps if you have a bent rod) then it's an expensive mess but not a disaster. Send the head to Frank06, buy a belt kit and fix it. Around $1500 for the belt kit and head work, plus 2-3 days in your garage, and you should be back on the road. Just do look at the rest of the internals you can easily get to first so you don't spend the $1500 and find the engine wasn't worth the investment; basically, the question is "do you think you'll get another 100k miles out of it once it's back together?" If yes, then proceed. If not then part out the car.

That's how I'd look at it.
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
If the motor does not crank I would just cut the belt and yank the head.
If the motor turns I would manually crank it from the crankshaft center bolt to get the cam lobes on #1 both up and the injection pump to the lock hole for #1 cylinder.
Lock the injection pump with the tool or if you don't have it a 5mm drill bit (shank into the pump).
At least the pump would be in the right spot.
If the engines repairable then you could take the rest of the right side off as needed.
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
With a shredded belt I wouldn't even bother trying to roll it over with the crank bolt or otherwise. Just pull the head. Once the head's off you can trivially put the crank at TDC, and putting the pump at the pin hole is easy too off the IP center bolt (just don't turn it CCW!)

With 300k+ miles I'm looking at the bores before I do anything else, and I'm also going to check the crank front main seal for leakage; if there is any then the pan comes off and I'm inspecting the oil pump chain and tensioner, and will probably change those (plus inspecting the oil pump) while the front sprocket is off to change the front oil seal. If there's obvious bore damage or the honing is uneven then it gets more serious as if you've got egg-shaped bores you gotta consider whether it's worth what really OUGHT to be done (bore oversize, etc.)

I'm not tossing $2kish worth of parts in an engine plus a couple of full days of work unless I'm reasonably comfortable that I will get another 100k miles out of it. But that's me -- $2 large is a chunk of cash, and it's REAL easy for the $2 large to be completely wasted if the engine lunches itself 20k miles later.
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
Agreed I would not throw big money in the car until I know how bad it is.
Keep in mind for later, the cam and pump turn once for every two turns of the crank.
The cam only locks at one point.
The pump lock hole could lock at #1 cyl or #3 cyl injection.
I'm sure someone here will correct me if I'm wrong on this. :)
There's a few 'how to' posts with all the steps in order.
Remember to check how high the pistons stick out of the block, all should be even.
Save the head gasket, you need the number of 'holes' in it for the correct thickness.
 

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
Doesn't matter.

Think about it a bit. The piston moves upward twice for each power stroke (once to clear the cylinder of combustion gases, once to compress the air charge.) So yes, the IP turns at half the rate of the crank. But, doesn't matter with the head off and cam out. #1 at TDC is #1 at TDC, and with the flywheel mark aligned that's correct.

With the pin in the pump, that's also correct. And when you put the head on, the lobes are both up on #1, and the lock plate goes in, that's also correct. There's your three points, all aligned.

With the belt shredded rolling the crank won't help you as the other two won't move in relationship with the crank.
 
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